Thread: New way to RC: do them when your phone rings

I think this is actually quite a clever idea- utilising conditioning and external stimulus when you're asleep; stronger than something like a NovaDreamer which just gives external stimulus. I think the strongest point is the fact that receiving a text message is a random event, so the subconscious assosciation could be quite strong. Nice pioneering!

Yeah, it is a great idea! Any sign that gets you to question your state a lot works. Of course, if your phone never rings, I'd recommend something different, but it is certainly a good thought!

I need to buy a new phone first. Mine's broken.

I usually get a handful of texts from my boyfriend everyday, so this could be a good experiment for me.

Good idea Ev, thanks, I'll let you know the results. I'm always looking for fresh ideas.

Originally Posted by OpheliaBlue

I usually get a handful of texts from my boyfriend everyday, so this could be a good experiment for me.

Good idea Ev, thanks, I'll let you know the results. I'm always looking for fresh ideas.

It's good to see that you are still around keep texting

Originally Posted by Ev

The process is simple - Pavlov, a pioneer brain researcher conducted experiments with dogs, and trained them to salivate when a bell has been rung. I think the same process can be learned by humans - when the phone rings, become aware and do a RC.

I've thought about pavlov methods and tried to include them my lucid dream experiments. Can tell you that there's already a problem before we even start to follow that path.
Assume the following picture:



As you can see, at a certain point of practice, the dog reacts to the conditioned stimulus (which was before neutral) with salivation. He has learnt to associate it with the incoming of the food.

The deal is, there have been made several tests about the "reward". The question is: how much conditioned stimulus can you make the subject respond to with conditioned response without reward? You know for a point that if you didn't show the food to the dog, after several times he would unlearn the association.
Now you may ask what has this to do with lucid dreaming?

Exactly that. You won't get a lucid in the first attempts that you do it (let's assume not and leave those exceptional cases behind). So you would be performing the action without a link to the unconditioned stimulus (the lucid dreaming). So, isn't this a backwards process? In this particular case, we would be doing a conditioned response as a result of the conditioned stimulus (the ringtone). But how can the neutral stimulus turn into conditioned if it hasn't been linked with the unconditioned one?

We could go with the hypothesis that the subject will strike for the conditioned response due expectation on a (delayed) reward. But doesn't this make the process obsolete since the more repetition without reward (meaning, the more you perform a RC with ringtone without getting a lucid that night) would lead to less focus/expectation on it? Once again, we can assume "spontaneous recovery" meaning the subject would be "minimally" aware on the future in terms of "an alarm! I must do a reality check" but still....

Short version: this is backward conditioning, how can it help?

In advance, thanks for making a post about this, it's a topic that bugs me due this particular issue

This seems easy enough.

Originally Posted by zoth00

I've thought about pavlov methods and tried to include them my lucid dream experiments. Can tell you that there's already a problem before we even start to follow that path.
Assume the following picture:



As you can see, at a certain point of practice, the dog reacts to the conditioned stimulus (which was before neutral) with salivation. He has learnt to associate it with the incoming of the food.

The deal is, there have been made several tests about the "reward". The question is: how much conditioned stimulus can you make the subject respond to with conditioned response without reward? You know for a point that if you didn't show the food to the dog, after several times he would unlearn the association.
Now you may ask what has this to do with lucid dreaming?

Exactly that. You won't get a lucid in the first attempts that you do it (let's assume not and leave those exceptional cases behind). So you would be performing the action without a link to the unconditioned stimulus (the lucid dreaming). So, isn't this a backwards process? In this particular case, we would be doing a conditioned response as a result of the conditioned stimulus (the ringtone). But how can the neutral stimulus turn into conditioned if it hasn't been linked with the unconditioned one?

We could go with the hypothesis that the subject will strike for the conditioned response due expectation on a (delayed) reward. But doesn't this make the process obsolete since the more repetition without reward (meaning, the more you perform a RC with ringtone without getting a lucid that night) would lead to less focus/expectation on it? Once again, we can assume "spontaneous recovery" meaning the subject would be "minimally" aware on the future in terms of "an alarm! I must do a reality check" but still....

Short version: this is backward conditioning, how can it help?

In advance, thanks for making a post about this, it's a topic that bugs me due this particular issue

Well, I did practically the same thing as this with my watch (which I always wear). I use ADA, but I often stopped being aware. I decided to use my watch to remember my ADA, because I look at my watch quite often during the day. Ofcourse, I would look at my watch without remembering ADA. So I started to think about my watch every time I thought of ADA. The human brain works with links. If you conciously think about your watch every time you think about ADA, the link will be made between the two, and it will eventually work backwards as well. It got me a few lucids. I stopped linking the two because I remembered to do ADA without it, but it was certainly a great help for the time being.

So to link this to Pavlov: the dog linked the bell to getting food, but when getting food, it also expected to hear the bell. When it doesn't hear that bell it stops expecting it, and therefore hearing the bell will no longer lead to salivation

Originally Posted by zoth00

I've thought about pavlov methods and tried to include them my lucid dream experiments. Can tell you that there's already a problem before we even start to follow that path.
Assume the following picture:



As you can see, at a certain point of practice, the dog reacts to the conditioned stimulus (which was before neutral) with salivation. He has learnt to associate it with the incoming of the food.

The deal is, there have been made several tests about the "reward". The question is: how much conditioned stimulus can you make the subject respond to with conditioned response without reward? You know for a point that if you didn't show the food to the dog, after several times he would unlearn the association.
Now you may ask what has this to do with lucid dreaming?

Exactly that. You won't get a lucid in the first attempts that you do it (let's assume not and leave those exceptional cases behind). So you would be performing the action without a link to the unconditioned stimulus (the lucid dreaming). So, isn't this a backwards process? In this particular case, we would be doing a conditioned response as a result of the conditioned stimulus (the ringtone). But how can the neutral stimulus turn into conditioned if it hasn't been linked with the unconditioned one?

We could go with the hypothesis that the subject will strike for the conditioned response due expectation on a (delayed) reward. But doesn't this make the process obsolete since the more repetition without reward (meaning, the more you perform a RC with ringtone without getting a lucid that night) would lead to less focus/expectation on it? Once again, we can assume "spontaneous recovery" meaning the subject would be "minimally" aware on the future in terms of "an alarm! I must do a reality check" but still....

Short version: this is backward conditioning, how can it help?

In advance, thanks for making a post about this, it's a topic that bugs me due this particular issue

Unlike dogs, humans are already conditioned since the very early childhood to listen to the doorbell, phone rings, etc. These events are very difficult to ignore. At the very least, you will check the phone to see who's calling. Phone calls arise as completely external events, thus interrupting the flow of whatever was happening. The phone call is like a "lottery ticket" - it may save you from boredom or may be just a random telemarketer calling. This creates a momentary flash of awareness and expectation within whatever action was performed prior to the phone call. A reality check simply increases the amount of that awareness.

to test this theory, I added a reality check option to the lucid dreaming app. Now the reality check cues are dependent on when I had dreams last night. I will test this and see if this does anything for lucidity.