Thread: Targeting REM Cycles

Disclaimer: we still don't know what happens during a WILD; there are so far (that I know of) no studies regarding wake induction.

Okay, now that we got that out of the way:

First, it's important to use the correct terms:

- A sleep cycle is a period that encompasses several sleep stages: the duration of this cycle can last anywhere from 70 to 120 minutes, depending on a wide range of factors. The composition of this cycle is determined by neurochemistry, which is influenced by physiological factors occurring prior or during sleep, among other aspects.
- A sleep stage is a specific period with particular neurological and physiological features that occurs within each sleep cycle.

Now, I'll skip the technical details, but picture a scale: in one side, the two mechanisms that regulate sleep (homeostasis and circadian clock) create a sort of sleep debt which can be fulfilled by (drums) sleeping xD but not just any sleep, you'll need sleep from both N-REM and REM stages (because they have different functions to your body). As you go through your sleep, these stages vary in duration, and some of them tend to be prioritized (which also happens when you're sleep deprived). This is the key for understanding wake inductions, because REM stages tend to show up earlier and last longer in the latest sleep cycles of our resting period.

What actually happens? If the idea is to trick your body to fall asleep... wouldn't it just fall asleep and you mind stay awake but no dream forms?

This is actually a misconception: in WILD there's no tricking your body, you DO fall asleep. The only difference is that you retain consciousness during the whole process, a sort of "sleep while awake". It does sound crazy (we don't know how it is possible, but in some sense it seems kind of like meditation), but the person's neural activity is actually changing. Since you're still progressing (maybe in a slightly different way) through stages of sleep, people still experience typical events like hypnagogic hallucinations, muscle atonia (just to mention a few). Then at some point, you enter REM, and the dream forms. Why don't we experience N-REM dreams in the overwhelming majority of times (had to say overwhelming because some people report NREM WILD) and experience REM dreams? No one knows, just like we can't explain why some wake inductions of lucid dreams also result in Out of Body Experiences.
So when people WILD they're not exactly sleeping, but they're not awake either: they're probably in a middle ground which explains how they still experience the physiological features of the sleep stages, but still retain consciousness. At least that's how I view it, I'm sure some people might disagree, or maybe future research will show us how WILDs are actually DILDs with disruption of wakefulness periods (yes, we do wake up several times per night for just a few seconds). Who knows ^^

What determines when the REM period begins. If you are going to say it's based solely on how long you have been asleep this doesn't make sense for the following reason. People say to wake up "before" a REM cycle begins and then wait for it to start. Well while you are waiting you haven't slept any longer so how are you "waiting" for the REM period to begin if it's based on how long you have been sleeping.

That smart observation made me giggle: that's indeed a pretty valid question! But although we don't know exactly what's happening during WILD, it's easier to "guess".
But before that, let me correct you on something: REM stage doesn't begin based on how long you are asleep, it begins based on several factors, including how much sleep you had so far, how much rem sleep you had so far (when I say so far, is recently, remember the scale analogy). Being sleep deprived for example makes you attain REM earlier in the sleep cycles, and lasting for longer durations, because REM is prioritized over other sleep stages in cases of sleep deprivation. But when that "REM debt" is payed off, you'll compensate by experiencing less REM and more N-REM sleep.
So, like you said, regardless of whether we're exactly sleeping or in a hybrid state with specific brain activity, we're still attaining REM after some time. We just do this after a few hours of sleep because that's when (assuming no sleep-debt/issues/etc) the REM stage starts occurring earlier and lasting longer, making it easier to achieve a WILD (because we don't have to wait so long as we would if we tried it when we went to bed) and we get more REM dreaming (aka, longer lucid dreams).

Hopefully this made sense and I didn't forget anything major, but as you can see, we're still pretty much ignorant of what happens during WILD.

PS: the interesting thing is when you perceive WILD as a disruption of the normal sleep cycle: so even if we go by the books, this still wouldn't qualify exactly as how a WILD attempt would go, the presence of consciousness is enough to alter the process by itself. In that sense, the most famous variation of WILD, DEILD, is much easier to explain.

Thanks for this excellent and detailed response. I am still not clear on the following though. Let's say I lay down and theoretically my REM period is not set to begin for an hour. Do I ever fall asleep while keeping my mind awake (or consciously aware as you say)? Forget the idea that people may have a dream during NREM for a moment... I lie there and do everything perfect that would facilitate a WILD but my REM period is far off... Do I fall asleep but no dream forms and my mind is sitting there in a black void? Or do I lay their and wait forever and nothing happens? If I am reading your post correctly I think you are saying I would fall asleep and no dream would form and i would just progress through stages of sleep while consciously aware? Would sleep paralysis always be present in such a scenario? I know it is not always present for standard WILD's and I never experience it personally when I WILD.

I agree there is much we don't know and you bring up some interesting ideas. Also, I am not sure OBEs really exist, but maybe they do. I think 99% of the time it's just a dream version of people's bedrooms and is largely affected by expectations. I have had several such experiences. Although some people propose theories (or share experiences) about a real time zone and being closer or further away from it and subsequently being able to view what is going on in real time. I've read Monroe's books (among others) and have seen a lot of view points. It may be some form of remote viewing as well... who knows. I have read recently that lucid dreaming is a whole new state of consciousness and I think I know where you are going when you say your mind is actually a sleep since the brainwaves are indicative of this. I'll try not to go off on tangent here, but just wanted to say you got me thinking on the whole mind awake body asleep terminology.

*Do I ever fall asleep while keeping my mind awake (or consciously aware as you say)?

So its simple to understand: a defining feature of NREM sleep is the almost total loss of consciousness that peaks at stage 3. At this stage you barely experience any perception. But during other stages you still experience some degree of consciousness: think when you're in stage 1 you experience hypnagogic hallucinations.
This "half-awake" state can also be referred as threshold of consciousness: below that point, there's no conscious perception of any stimuli and/or dream content.
During a WILD, what you are doing is going through the phases of sleep WHILE remaining in the the threshold of consciousness: you're asleep in the sense that you're experiencing neurological and physiological features characteristic of these NREM stages, but you can still be considered awake because you still did not loose consciousness (and remain in a state of relative wakefulness). It may hard to grasp this notion, but if you don't see sleep and wakefulness as mutually exclusive states of consciousness but points in a spectrum, you'll get the idea.
(Brief additional note: sometimes you do "fall asleep", or more correctly, loose consciousness while attempting a WILD: these micro losses of consciousness occur when you dip briefly below the threshold of consciousness. No perception occurs, no heavy dreaming occurs - because, you're still in NREM. For some people this results in a failed attempt; for others it results in a incoming DILD; a minority still manages to regain consciousness).

Do I fall asleep but no dream forms and my mind is sitting there in a black void?

Short answer: yes.
Long answer: it's not a void, your mind won't be sitting most of the time, and you're still conscious (even if asleep).*
Remember that you're still going through the sleep cycle, which coupled with your minimal conscioussness, can make part of the trip a bit noisy. But the process is very very similar to a natural falling asleep: you lay there, your mind drifting, random thoughts and images going through your head, move a bit once in a while....and you wake up in the morning (or in the case of a successful WILD, you feel the dream starting).

*Would sleep paralysis always be present in such a scenario? I know it is not always present for standard WILD's and I never experience it personally when I WILD

There's a sticky about sleep paralysis on the WILD sub-forum that I'd suggest you to read (on phone so can't link): basically, sleep paralsysis is a disorder of sleep that only affects a low amount of people rarely, and is chronicle (as in, occurs many many times) to a even lower amount of the population. That means if you have never experienced it, chances are you never will.*
The only term relevant to lucid dreaming is REM atonia, which is the muscular paralysis that occurs due the disruption of synaptic transmission of your motor neurons in everything except your eyes and your respiratory system (this one dur obvious reasons).
Now, rem atonia will be present during a WILD (it has to :p) but even then, you probably never experience it. Why? Because your attentional resources are competing with perception from the forming dream. It makes all the sense: do you have time to notice gradual numbness while you're being overwhelmed by sensations? Hardly.

Regarding the OBE, just think of them by what they are: experiences of you leaving your body. We can already induce OBE while awake in the lab as shown by researchers, but even NDE can be considered OBEs. They fall in the middle ground as their occurences both in sleep states, and lack of conscioussness and even while awake make it very hard to specificy as merely dreams or merely hallucinations.
(Just notice that I'm sticking to OBEs. I also do not believe in astral projections or any idea that you're visiting other reality because...well, no evidence that points there).

*I'll try not to go off on tangent here, but just wanted to say you got me thinking on the whole mind awake body asleep terminology

Thats a good thing I'd say

Thanks again! I have a much clearer understanding now.

Originally Posted by kingofhypocrites

I understand the idea behind targeting REM cycles for WILD attempts. However I've never been clear on the following points:
1) Let say you start a WILD or other technique attempt and a REM cycle isn't set to begin soon... What actually happens? If the idea is to trick your body to fall asleep... wouldn't it just fall asleep and you mind stay awake but no dream forms? Does your body only fall asleep if a REM cycle is beginning? People say target a REM period otherwise you just fall asleep entirely, but if you are keeping your mind conscious I would think either your body falls asleep and no dream forms or you lie their indefinitely.
2) What determines when the REM period begins. If you are going to say it's based solely on how long you have been asleep this doesn't make sense for the following reason. People say to wake up "before" a REM cycle begins and then wait for it to start. Well while you are waiting you haven't slept any longer so how are you "waiting" for the REM period to begin if it's based on how long you have been sleeping. I would think you would have to sleep longer if the REM period isn't set to begin yet. Either that or by lying in lowered brainwave state somehow substitutes for full sleep. Otherwise it must be some combination of factors that onset the REM period. I am sure the change in brain chemistry the longer you stay awake also is a factor.

1. If you fail a REM cycle most often you will still progress through the stages however you might lapse at the end and find yourself awake again, or rather only withing the dream for seconds.
2. Rem cycles have been documented to be around certain periods but it's different for each person. Depending on your own sleep patterns, and disturbances during the night each individual will have to tailor their own timings based on when they work best. Just lying down trying to sleep does not substitute for full sleep, however you can pass a few of the earlier stages.

I've always meant to ask, if you wake up during the middle of the night and stay up too much (say more than two hours) and then go back to sleep, does your sleep cycle restart itself? Or does it resume where it left off? If so, how does the brain pick up where it left off like that? If not, How much time do we have before it resets itself and have to start from stage 1 again? What is the explanation behind being in a sleep cycle and awake at the same time?

There have been a couple occasions during wbtbt where, being up for not even ten minutes, I could not get back to sleep and lingered in bed for at least an hour. Finally drifting off after another hour or so, I went into, what I assumed was, the last stages of REM (the reason why I assume is because the dreams were frequent and vivid).