Thread: Only seem to become lucid when not “trying”

That's a hard thing to assert: you can simply be getting that impression due the fact that you "stop trying" after a few days, and that coincidentally all that training of the past period finally pays off by itself.

The deal is that there are many aspects that deny us the chance us to draw any causal inferences regarding lucid dreaming techniques, intensity and length of practice, etc. Even if you practice MILD for 2 months, it's not necessarily true that your lucid dream was triggered by MILD. At the same time, we still lack proper understanding regarding the impact of stress and anxiety in your dreams, motivation, and practically every factor that has relevance when determining your odds of lucidity.

So, what can you do about it? Probably nothing, except sticking to the elements you can control, such as continued practice and dedication, reduction of anxiety regarding when you will attain a lucid dream, and maintaining good sleep quality. These factors alone will gradually increase your lucid dreaming frequency, which is all that matters (and not so much how are you becoming lucid).

Thx, Zoth,

Yes I guess there are just too many other factors at play. After examining my DJ of lucid dreams, and trying to find any sort of causal link between certain activities and how I became lucid in those dreams -- I could not point to any sort of pattern or process.

But that does make sense about LD anxiety. This may be the case now that I think of it. For sake of comparison, I have often found it difficult to sleep purely because I had anxiety about not being able to sleep, which almost inevitably meant that I couldn’t, whereas if I didn’t really care, it was suddenly much easier. So yes now I’m thinking there could be an element of this -- probably putting too much pressure on when you will attain an LD etc., like you say. Probably best to just keep up the practice and not expect too much.

Warning: a controversial opinion is about to be expressed.

This is why DILD is not a good technique; the successes are so rare that it's very difficult to learn what really works. It's like learning to ride a bike by being dropped on the side of a mountain. Like, you ate cheese that day so now you won't get a DILD. This is NOT how you learn.

WILD is much better precisely because it's so much more under your control. More control = faster learning.

Zoth summed it up pretty good. I used to think the exact same thing as you Eamo. For instance, back when I first started practicing self awareness and DILD in general, I would practice them for 2 weeks straight and get nothing. I never gave up though. Soon a month passed and I still stayed persistent and practiced both "techniques". After a month of practicing them, they both became second nature and suddenly I found myself becoming lucid in at least half of my dreams every night.

Persistence does it along with true, un-stressed, genuine effort on your part. Sure it gets tiring being self aware all day for me(not really anymore,(when I first started) but it pays off every night to the point where it feels like you're living two different lives because of the frequency of LDs. Trust me, if you spend enough time with one technique, after a month or so it clicks and the LDs come every night.

cmind

I see what you mean, cmind, but surely DILD can’t be that tricky! In relation to WILD though, I find it incredibly difficult to WILD -- I would like to be able to, but after over 100 failed attempts, I really don’t think I’ll ever be able to do it (especially not consistently). WILD just doesn’t appeal to me anymore. But I assume that there are many experienced LD’ers who become lucid every night through DILD and DILD-related activities (like having the right mindset, intent, techniques etc.), who themselves might say WILD is just another way of entering a LD.

OneUp

Wise words there, OneUp; thx!

It’s encouraging to hear about success like that, also I do think consistency may be one of my main issues, so I must work on that.

What I plan on doing from now is just keeping up three things: (1) dream journaling, (2) daytime RC’s to anything “odd” specifically, as well as in general if it crosses my mind, and (3) SSILD at night. I guess my plan is to just go with this set of activities and not to try so much, but just try to internalize these activities as if they're just an everyday thing until it eventually begins to reflect in dreams. But yes, I can see why persistence would be important as well. Normally I would give up my practices now and then or constantly try to find better ways to LD, or a more concrete "technique", but I guess it doesn't really work like that

I have a similar case as well, after a while of focusing intently on lucid dreaming and suddenly dropping it one night, I experience a lucid dream. There are clearly a lot of factors to consider, but it's probably just your practice finally paying off like Zoth said. Keep up trying and you'll start having them regularly, at least that's what I think.

As for WILD being the most effective technique, it does have a lot going for it. But it really depends on what the dreamer his or herself thinks works best for them. Going directly from a waking to dreaming state does induce vivid lucids than most DILD cases, but all techniques have their merits. I've tried both with decent success, but I can safely say WILD is more vivid as there is little to no lapse in consciousness.

While it is with a lot of certainty that we can say "we basically don't know jack about dreaming" and lucid dreaming in particular, there is an apparent really uncanny, high correlation with "giving up" and having instant LD success the same night. You can read this on various forums over and over again: "I tried to LD for <weeks/months/years>, never had any success, so I 'gave up', and had a LD that same night!".

You can see the same thing on DV competitions: people work hard all the 2 weeks, and *as soon as the competition is over, people get lucid like crazy*, usually on the very next day following the conclusion of the competition!

I'd even go so far as to name this the "Give up/Relax" technique. We know that stress and anxiety are dream recall and lucidity killers. What if "trying [hard or not]" turns out to be just another form of stress/anxiety, even though we don't "feel" it the same way?

What if all that lucidity potential is just sitting there, built up higher and higher with all the day/night work, intention, etc., just waiting for us to sufficiently relax in order to get lucid? Like there's some pipe through which sufficient "lucid juice" must flow in order for us to get lucid. But stress/anxiety/"trying" keeps this pipe consistently constricted: no matter how much of the massive reservoir of lucidity potential we've built up through our conscious practices, the width of this little pipe is the final determining factor in lucidity.

This is something I'm working on now: at night, affirming that yeah, lucidity would be awesome, but whatever happens will be awesome, too, and to just "give up" and see what happens.

^^Yes it is interesting, isn’t it?

A few months back, I had about 4 LD’s in the space of a week, and a few semi-lucids. I was actually surprised because I hadn’t even been practicing very much (and wasn't overly concerned about whether I would become lucid or not). I did about 1 or 2 RC’s a day MAX, as well as DJ’ing, but I wouldn’t say I was pushing myself to do these things -- it was more like I just did them for the sake of being consistent, to not let my practices dwindle to the point that it would be hard to pick them up again. I didn’t even have any sort of night-technique, like MILD etc.

On a similar note, I noticed that when I did have LD’s, I thought “well seeing that I’ve had so many LD’s in the last while, I should be able to do it again soon"……… as a result I stopped having them.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

We know that stress and anxiety are dream recall and lucidity killers. What if "trying [hard or not]" turns out to be just another form of stress/anxiety, even though we don't "feel" it the same way?

Now this is an interesting idea, and it’s something I’ve thought about myself. I do think that trying too hard may have an anxiety/ stress dimension to it. I’ve noticed it with many other things as well. It may well be thing which prevents lucidity.

Ugh, lucid dreaming is so complicated! It’s so difficult to know what to do!

Zaephr:

Yeah I think keeping up the work regardless is probably best. Also, I haven’t WILDed before, but I have had quite a few DEILD’s (which I think are fairly similar), and they were indeed more vivid than any DILD’s I’ve had. I’d imagine that WILD is a fine method for those who can do it.

I'd even go so far as to name this the "Give up/Relax" technique. We know that stress and anxiety are dream recall and lucidity killers. What if "trying [hard or not]" turns out to be just another form of stress/anxiety, even though we don't "feel" it the same way?

No I've tried the give up technique. It works for the first 2 or so nights then you stop getting lucids after that. Don't ever give up, that never works lol. You just have to stop the stress and anxiety produced from wanting to get another LD. Stress and anxiety in any form hinder progress in mental practices. That's why when you just give any technique your best and don't stress over it, while at the same time having confidence that you'll get it sooner or later, you see the very best results I feel.

Note that I don't advocate actually giving up, but producing the mindset of giving up. "Trying hard" has done nothing for me : I've had barely more LDs in all of 2015 than in just August of 2014, and just a few of them good ones.

edit: And what was the difference between then and now? In summer 2014, I was just enjoying life, being quite happy, mostly being out in nature in the sun and fresh air during the day. And eating buckets and buckets of blueberries.

The way I see it is that expectation has very little to do with actually gaining lucidity. Lucidity means being aware, applying desire and forced expectation is far from honest open awareness.

Ryan Hurd developed a technique to specifically take advantage of this phenomena though. It's as simple as purposely taking off a week or two every month and let things stew. (the subconscious sure is a picky consumer) and continuing your practice (whatever it may be) the rest of the month. This makes a lot of sense for me because I can't purposely decide to learn something non-chalantly, I'm a violent student XD

(self) Awareness is certainly one of the cornerstones of lucidity (where I'll define lucidity as 'recognizing the dream state with waking-like consciousness', what most would call "medium to high lucidity"). But it's not enough. A lot of my dreams are now "semi-lucid," where I am aware enough to realize I am not in the standard waking state and behave as such, but something is lacking: either the memory that I want a fully lucid experience, or sufficient intention to *care* about getting fully lucid.

And being intensely focused and "trying really hard" for long periods of time doesn't seem to do the trick, thus my theorem (together with all the "I gave up and got lucid that same night!" testimonials) that being very relaxed about it may be (much) better.

Self awareness is only half awareness, external awareness is just as vital (imho) though training both of these never quite seems enough to overcome that insidious semi-lucidity haha.

For myself, taking a break is rarely as successful as intent training, but I think it's a fantastic solution for certain lucid issues. When I do get stuck in that haze of semi-lucidity (night after night) what's worked for me in the past is taking on new and specific goals, something set to me by a friend or that I find online. I think the new angle shakes me out of that funk.

You're right though, banging your head against an obstacle for so long is only gonna result in a headache

Every night I had a lucid dream, I kept my mind off of it. For the whole day I wouldn't focus on lucid dreaming whatsoever and occupy myself with enjoyable activities. The next day I tried to do it, I would end up constantly focused on the fact and wouldn't achieve lucidity.

I suppose that appreciating the wonders of waking reality grants you a ticket to lucidity in the dreamworld. A lot of new dreamers tend to want only lucid dreams and nothing but lucid dreams, which tends to make them view the waking reality as boring and dull. You have to view both as equals before you can have lucids regularly. There's a certain equilibrium that should not be disturbed; view neither realities as more important than the other. Sure, there's definitely going to be exceptions as everybody does it differently.

Originally Posted by Zaephr

Every night I had a lucid dream, I kept my mind off of it. For the whole day I wouldn't focus on lucid dreaming whatsoever and occupy myself with enjoyable activities. The next day I tried to do it, I would end up constantly focused on the fact and wouldn't achieve lucidity.

I suppose that appreciating the wonders of waking reality grants you a ticket to lucidity in the dreamworld. A lot of new dreamers tend to want only lucid dreams and nothing but lucid dreams, which tends to make them view the waking reality as boring and dull. You have to view both as equals before you can have lucids regularly. There's a certain equilibrium that should not be disturbed; view neither realities as more important than the other. Sure, there's definitely going to be exceptions as everybody does it differently.

Very interesting, I wholeheartedly agree….and *yet another balance* that must be struck in this hobby of eternal balancing.

Great responses so far. I'm just gonna throw in some more thoughts I had on the difficulties of approaching LD'ing:

LD'ing is not so much like practicing something IWL, like a skill, sport, art etc. at least with those, you can follow set techniques and receive direct feedback about your performance etc. LD’ing though is just so intangible. It relies on you creating a mindset (maybe acquiring habits as well), which will allow your subconscious mind to make you become conscious in your dreams. You then have to fall asleep and trust that you “will” succeed. That to me, is pretty hazy -- even if techniques are followed, it still feels like a shot in the dark (literally). In terms of induction exclusively, unless someone has mastered WILD, I think it’s very difficult to carve a concrete path to something as nebulous as “becoming conscious in your dreams”, in a way that you could confidently execute it. There’s something about having to fall asleep first which makes it feel like you’re not in control.

To add to the confusion, some people claim to be able to become lucid every night because of constant awareness of some kind (like all day RC’s, constant awareness, ADA etc.), which they’ve internalized over a long time. On the other hand, some people claim to be able to LD every night based on their “can do” attitude -- they just know they will be lucid without even trying, perhaps with nowhere near the level of daytime critical-awareness as the first bunch.

But aside from causal links between activities and lucidity, I also think it is in fact difficult to point to any sort of practice which will let you gauge your performance or know how “correctly” you are doing it. In a waking life activity, you can try and succeed, with LD'ing it is purely subconscious -- there are so many associated mental blockades, including trying itself in many cases.

^^ Absolutely. LDing is unique in that no external coaching is possible. Oh, you can get vague general feedback, but you're going through several layers of interpretation (you telling what you think is going on, other people then responding to how they understand what you wrote, etc.), there is no direct observation possible for feedback, as you mention.

It's all you, baby!

^^Oh yes, they are good points, but suppose I was focusing more on the area of self-generated feedback, which can be obtained instantaneously as you do something. For example, if I was to try and paint a picture or draw something, I might not be very good at it, but the process of improving offers solid information -- e.g. I see what is required, and adjust my drawing technique incrementally, creating better habits and being able to execute that particular movement, sweep etc. each time, as I get nearer to the goal.

With LD’ing however, there is such vagueness between your own actions/ efforts, and lucidity -- including the fact that your subconscious mind is so complicated that it‘s difficult to “practice” in such black and white terms (e.g. I can’t guarantee I will LD tonight, even though I am “practicing”).

From what I’ve read however, many experienced LD’ers have apparently learned to do it themselves -- but there is definitely some type of mental state to be unlocked for sure.

A lot of my dreams are now "semi-lucid,"

Hahaha same man

I think it all boils down to how we each view Self Awareness and our definition of it. Just like how everyone views things slightly different. For me, I've also incorporated a bit of external awareness with my self awareness and as of recently that is doing a great job. All in all though, my entire Lucidity "arsenal" consists of being both self aware and having ADA constantly for the most part, and always doing reality checks when the unexpected or unusual happens, and also a variant of the MILD technique each night before bed to get my mind focused and intention clear.

When I stick to this "arsenal" wholeheartedly and without stress or anxiety, my LD frequency and Length both increase directly. I've found myself that staying self aware within the dream state, just as you would practice self awareness in waking life, GREATLY lengthens lucid dreams. In my own experience, as long as I am self aware in a dream, and don't get distracted, I will stay in the Lucid. So the lucid doesn't end until I lose self awareness. I know that sounds crazy, but you guys should give it a try.

I usually have no problem staying in a lucid dream. All but one have been level 3 and 4's, which means I'm either very lucky or I'm actually doing something right for once. My main problem comes from my frequency of lucids as I've said previously in this discussion. I'm going to approach this in a new way: value the dream reality and waking reality equally, and maintaining a lucid mindset through my day to day life (Asking myself, "What was I just doing?", as a mental reality check). I'll report back with my successes soon.

I usually have no problem staying in a lucid dream

Well, more specifically I meant for any amount of time. I'm talking hours. I don't really label my lucids with levels really, although I am at an extremely high level of lucidity in every lucid. Some oneironauts face a problem when it comes to length of their lucids and even vividness. It sounds as though, like me, all of your dreams both lucid and non-lucid are as vivid as waking life?

Originally Posted by OneUp

Well, more specifically I meant for any amount of time. I'm talking hours. I don't really label my lucids with levels really, although I am at an extremely high level of lucidity in every lucid. Some oneironauts face a problem when it comes to length of their lucids and even vividness. It sounds as though, like me, all of your dreams both lucid and non-lucid are as vivid as waking life?

Only my lucid dreams feel similarly vivid to waking life, as I haven't achieved maximum consciousness yet (during my dreams they seem extremely vivid, but after I wake they don't appear as clear). Most of mine have been DILD's, but I've been using WILD and already I am having good results-it's unbelievable how realistic WILD lucids can get. Most of my dreams happen in the morning, so I often find myself returning to bed at the end of my lucids and then waking up in real life. As such, I've been trying to induce lucid dreams earlier in REM to experience them much longer with DILD. With WILD I don't have that problem, but recently I've had trouble returning to sleep after waking up at night, but I recognize I'm getting better at it.

As such, I've been trying to induce lucid dreams earlier in REM to experience them much longer with DILD.

Ahh yeah that's a tricky one man. I'd say it's generally a little more difficult to get early REM lucids, but by no means does that mean its impossible. A tip though since you're trying to get those Early REM lucids, make sure your dream recall is up to par. If it is, once you do get those early LDs, you'll remember them easily. If your dream recall isn't too good then it will be a little harder to remember early lucids and you may even forget them. It's happened to me before. Good luck dude.

Originally Posted by Eamo24

^^Oh yes, they are good points, but suppose I was focusing more on the area of self-generated feedback, which can be obtained instantaneously as you do something. For example, if I was to try and paint a picture or draw something, I might not be very good at it, but the process of improving offers solid information -- e.g. I see what is required, and adjust my drawing technique incrementally, creating better habits and being able to execute that particular movement, sweep etc. each time, as I get nearer to the goal.

With LD’ing however, there is such vagueness between your own actions/ efforts, and lucidity -- including the fact that your subconscious mind is so complicated that it‘s difficult to “practice” in such black and white terms (e.g. I can’t guarantee I will LD tonight, even though I am “practicing”).

From what I’ve read however, many experienced LD’ers have apparently learned to do it themselves -- but there is definitely some type of mental state to be unlocked for sure.

Yes I totally agree with this as well. It seems nearly impossible to know what "really worked" since the effects of day/night work accumulate slowly over time, there are so many separate factors, and the fact that the subconscious is not some "input A, output B" function machine.