Thread: No Rem, No Luck?

Hi, I'm new here and I'm not sure if this is the right thread for the question I want to ask but... here it goes

I was wondering, is it possible for someone who never (or very rarely) enters REM sleep to obtain lucidity?
Does one acually need to be in the REM stage of sleep for lucid dreaming?

yes you do need to be in REM sleep to become lucid because that's when dreams happen

So then it's impossible for someone who can't enter REM to obtain lucidity??

Pardon me, but I'm going to assume that
you're the one that cannot enter REM.

Are you sure about this?
What I mean, is... has a doctor or a professional
confirmed this? Is it some sort of physical/medical problem?


-

Your assumption is correct...

Are you sure about this?
What I mean, is... has a doctor or a professional
confirmed this? Is it some sort of physical/medical problem?[/b]

All my life I've had sleep "issues". A little while ago, I had a series sleep "tests" (where they cover you all over in wires and electrodes and other interesting devices), spread out over several months (the most recent being 2 months ago) and the doctors who interpreted the results told me that of all the tests, they only recorded REM sleep patterns twice. They also found that I wake up on average 16 times an hour.
Some nights are better, some worse but to sum it up, I don't REM sleep very often.

Still, I doubt the situation is as bad as it may seem. Without REM, people go insane, literally. And since you're here in perfect psychological well being, I'd say you get enough REM sleep to keep yourself healthy and thus, it's sure to be enough to attain lucidity in. It might be a bit tougher than for a large amount of others but nonetheless, your chances at attaining lucidity every night are merely a bit less, but that doesn't mean you need to dismiss lucid dreaming if you don't want to.

However, some people wake up many times a night to recall dreams. That wouldn't be very recommendable in your situation, I'd think, but that doesn't matter either because all dreams can be recalled in the morning without a single awakening at night, it merely takes actual training, practice.

So good luck if you decide to pursue lucid dreaming, be careful but unless it brings some sort of harm, don't give up!

the assuption you dream only in rem is a lie.

hat exactly is the difference between REM & Non-REM Sleep?

REM Dreams and Non-REM dreams are very different from each other in a few major ways. The first difference between the two is Non-REM dreams consist of brief, fragmentary impressions. They are also less likely to involve visual images compared to REM sleep, and are more frequently forgotten. Non-REM dreams are like thinking about something during the day for a brief period of time while REM dreams are comparable to thinking deeply about something. REM sleep consists of about two hours a night while Non-REM sleep lasts about four to six hours.[/b]

http://academic.pgcc.edu/~mhspear/sl...s/nrsleep.html

A new study finds that more aggressive, emotionally charged dreams tend to occur in the early, rapid-eye-movement (REM) period of sleep, whereas deeper, non-REM slumber encourages gentler, kinder dreaming.[/b]

http://www.redorbit.com/news/display/?id=112054
if you actually listen to science and not random speculation slogan then your see that if you have equal chance of any other person in this forum to lucid dream. you will have no troble lucid dreaming.

you need REM to stay healthy (well, thats what I have read).

The point is you do have REM, just not a lot

maybe your 2 rem periods are much longer than the rem most people have

you need REM to stay healthy (well, thats what I have read).

The point is you do have REM, just not a lot[/b]

maybe your 2 rem periods are much longer than the rem most people have [/b]

common you people rem is over rated they dont cause dream to happen and if you dont have any rem in your lifetime your still proberly be fine.
seriously unless you put i believe that rem causes dream then your just carring the myth of rem which is bad seeing as this is a dream forum. i say it again their nothing wrong with slogan you could dream normally and lucid dream normally just work on your recal if you cant remeber dreams. you dont need rem to stay healthy or slogan would be seriously ill or lying to us about the doctor measuring sleep pattarn. i myself have unsually slow eeg pattarn associated with non rem and still proberly have better recal then nearly 90% percent of people in this forum. not forgetting the tibetan monk lucid dream technqiue that train himslef to relax to get brain waves of non rem sleep. if your not lying i would count yourself lucky.

myself have unsually slow eeg pattarn associated with non rem and still proberly have better recal then nearly 90% percent of people in this forum.[/b]

lol do you know how many people there are on this forum? i am positive that you didnt go to all of them and ask how good their recall is. you should have just left that part out cause that is making an assumption just like all of us who assume that dreams only happen in rem. Dont say stuff like that till you are positive about it.

maybe your 2 rem periods are much longer than the rem most people have [/b]

It wasn't 2 per night, it was 2 total in a series of like 10 tests.
I know REM is needed for sanity so I know I must be getting some at some poin, just not as much as is desireable.
Thanks anyways guys

lol do you know how many people there are on this forum? i am positive that you didnt go to all of them and ask how good their recall is. you should have just left that part out cause that is making an assumption just like all of us who assume that dreams only happen in rem. Dont say stuff like that till you are positive about it.
[/b]

seriously if people in this forum did have good recal then they would know rem assumption is rubbish.

Yes, Slogan, you have a chance of attaining lucidity at any time during the night, as you don't need REM sleep to dream. However you may find it easier to become lucid during REM, because the dreams are often much more intense, and are likely to be easier to tell apart from reality, because of odd and intense situations within them.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

seriously if people in this forum did have good recal then they would know rem assumption is rubbish.
[/b]

I "hear" you talk about this a lot.
With everything I've read that states that lack of R.E.M. sleep can cause everything from disorientation to dementia, I'd love for you to list some of the sources that tell you that the "R.E.M. assumption is rubbish." And No, I'm not speaking from the assumption that dreams only occur during the R.E.M. period. Everything I've read states that dreams occur most often during R.E.M., so please point me to something (credible) that says the lack of R.E.M. sleep is harmless, because I'd like to read it for myself.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

seriously if people in this forum did have good recal then they would know rem assumption is rubbish.
[/b]

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

see personal and social evidence is not proof.
[/b]

Looks like a contradiction, to me.

The patient reported no dreams even when woken in the midst of rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, which is normally associated with dreaming. But to the researchers' surprise, her sleep pattern was perfectly normal. [/b]

She used to experience 3 to 4 dreams per week, says Claudio Bassetti, now of University Hospital Zurich in Switzerland, who studied the woman. After the stroke, she had no dreams for a whole year, yet her sleep and mental functions appeared otherwise unaffected.[/b]

This shows that REM sleep and dreaming do not always go hand in hand, says Bassetti. The occipital lobe, which was damaged by the woman's stroke, is likely to play an important role in dreaming[/b]

http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1141
read this article it basically tells you that rem has nothing to do with dreams.

So REM may simply bring the brain back from deep sleep periodically to help us wake up if we need to, says Horne.

But the function may be different in newborns, who typically spend around 8 hours per day in REM sleep. Here, the sleep pattern may be related to brain development. [/b]

you proberly dream all night but cant remeber it and the end stages of sleep where you can easily wake up to remeber it.

see the woman went through rem stages but still did not dream. so theirfore rem does not equal dream or the woman would have dreamt once during a year. dreaming is proberly caused by your occipital lobe not REM or the woman would have dreamt atleast once during the year.

Hmmmm. Very interesting article.
(As it suggests) I wouldn't draw the conclusion to say that REM has nothing to do with dreams. I'd say more likely that there is, at least, case evidence to show that it may not. One should also consider that it's in her inability to to recall the dreams she had, where the problem may lie. The dreams could still be experienced, but there is the possiblity that they are simply lost when she wakes up. We already know how common that is. She could be an extreme case of the same concept?
Good article, though.

they tested for that

"A lot of the time if somebody's got brain damage and they can't tell you any dreams, there's the possibility that it's because they've got bad memories," said Dr Mark Blagrove, a psychologist at Swansea University. This can yield false results because it might look as though the person is not actually able to produce dreams.

But Dr Bassetti's work got around this problem by investigating the patient's attention and memory and ability to imagine things when awake. In addition, the patient reported that she dreamed three or four times a week before her stroke[/b]

The question of “where”, though, now seems to have an answer. Dreams are either generated in, or transmitted through, a part of the brain called the right inferior lingual gyrus. At least, that seems to be the inference of a piece of research just published in the Annals of Neurology by Matthias Bischof and Claudio Bassetti, of the University Hospital of Bern. [/b]

http://www.economist.com/science/displaySt...tory_id=3172621

"In other patients, persistence of dreaming despite loss of REM sleep has been reported," the authors note. "[/b]

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/489030
on another note right inferior lingual gyrus i been looking for about an hour to see what this and the best thing i can find is that it involved with mirror writing and reading wtf. i am really confused. i think i can make a new wild method.

what do you mean by you can't enter the REM. everyone got REM so you can also LD. =D

Originally Posted by Xallie

what do you mean by you can't enter the REM. everyone got REM so you can also LD. =D

Dude...read all of the posts...lol

I am not sure if I am misunderstanding Becomingagodo but I will throw in my 2cents anyway.

It is true that REM does not control dreams. This was a theory created by J. Allen Hobson. He connected REM sleep, which mechanisms occur in the brainstem, to dreaming, which he also believed occurred in the brainstem. Mark Solms looked at some evidence that suggested otherwise and ran some tests on people that had damage to the brainstem in the area that is connected to REM. He found that these individuals did in fact dream.

Solms linked dreaming to the frontal lobe, more specifically the part known as the ventromesial quadrant, because people that had damage to that area had trouble dreaming. Finally, he found a procedure, prefrontal leucotomy, which was used primarily on schizophrenia patients. Turns out that patients with this done reported a cessation in dreaming. Furthermore, he ventured that dopamine, not acetylcholine (which triggers REM), is linked to dreaming. Dopamine actually does produce more vividness, length, and emotional dreaming.

So the question still stands, why was it connected to REM for so long? Well, as Solms even noted, REM sleep is a very aroused period. There is actually a lot of brain activity occurring, even at higher levels than in waking life. It just so happens that one of the areas of the brain that is not greatly active is the area of logic and short term memory (thus we do not question our dreams or remember them very well). In NREM sleep, the activity is gradually decreasing, whereas in REM it increases. REM is important for this reason. It helps us with long term memory (both informational and motor) and various other things. It does help us remain more psychologically sound.

From my understanding, it seems that becomingagodo was asserting that REM doesn't matter. Maybe I just misinterpreted it though.

I can't use my primary sources that would really nail this information in, because a great deal of you, if not all of you, would not be able to view it, so I googled stuff on Mark Solms and got this conversation that details what I said above:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/...ies/s44369.htm

Originally Posted by Axel

Dude...read all of the posts...lol

All of them? Lol. that would take a very long time in some that got like 20 pages, but i agree. this was short so i should have done it. Sry.

what's with reviving all the old threads anyway?