What is FILD really? [BUSTED]

[ninja9578]

I thought that FILD was a way to speed up a WILD, but I just read through the tutorials and it seems to rely on the ability to wake up after a dream and immediately go into the technique. To me this indicates that the FILD technique is actually just a DEILD with the addition of moving the fingers. If it is, in fact, a DEILD then the dreamer would enter a lucid dream even without moving the fingers. Who uses the FILD technique, am I misunderstanding the tutorial? I'm curious because as you all know we are redoing the tutorials and I'm wondering if the FILD tutorial should be a sub-tutorial of DEILD.

[Snowy Egypt]

I just re-read it, and it should be a sub tutorial of DEILD. It's just DEILD but you're moving your fingers. I'm surprised I didn't see that before...

[ninja9578]

I always thought it was a WILD technique. Um, I think that someone who uses FILD technique would become lucid no matter what now, DEILD is never miss. Maybe it should be added as a variation within the DEILD tutorial itself.

[adraw]

Good point. The sooner you reduce the number of techniques, the better.

[ninja9578]

Good point. The sooner you reduce the number of techniques, the better. A big part of the reason that I chose to have the tutorials redone. Too many duplicates. I noticed that you put FILD and DEILD together in your WILD guide. And BTY, I love your flow chat.

[DuB]

Strictly speaking, even DEILD is a sub-type of WILD (going directly from a waking state to a dreaming state while remaining conscious). In the broadest sense there is only DILD and WILD, and various techniques for achieving each one. For example, MILD is a technique for achieving DILD, and VILD is a technique for achieving WILD. A proper hierarchy might look something like this: Induction Techniques / \ / \ DILD WILD / \ | \ / \ | \ MILD Reality Checks | \ VILD DEILD | | FILD This isn't complete, but you get the idea. By the way, I'm glad that time is being taken to organize the tutorials. The old tutorials section looked quite intimidating. If we can make it more accessible, we may not get quite so many people starting threads asking what WILD is, "is this a lucid dream," etc. Also, just thinking out loud, but when all is said and done it may be helpful to make a new Lucid Dreaming FAQ and sticky it in the newbie forum. This FAQ would be similar to the thread of the same name in the tutorial archive, but more concise, and in answering the questions it should favor linking the reader to the relevant tutorials (and Dream Views home page articles - let's please not forget those!!) rather than answering it directly in the FAQ. I'm starting to stray off topic now, but I may PM the dream guide team with some more thoughts. I may even offer to write this FAQ up myself, but on the other hand, I am pretty busy this semester. We'll see

[Malac Reborn]

Sorry but I must disagree. It's actually a WILD variation, as also in the same sense as a Deild is too. The difference is that you're using physical movement to keep conscious while falling asleep while the other is not moving. Yes, FILD is easier to do when waking up because you're closer to the border of sleep, like Deild, but you could easily say flip flops and combat boots are the same because they're both footwear then. Fild can be accomplished without sleeping right away, but Deild is meant to only work right when awakening. If you think of it, they're the complete opposite. Two different branches on the same tree. They're both techniques that require to work at the border of sleep, but one requires movement to stay conscious while the other requires for NO movement. In the end, they're just two fast induced WILDs with two different approaches with a link that compares them and that is logically the border as sleep, as every technique that is induced from a waking state is.

[ninja9578]

Have you done this? Our research showed that that doesn't work. Sleep paralysis won't come if you are twitching. The ones who tried it know how to get to sleep paralysis and do it often, but it wouldn't come while twitching fingers except for DEILDs, in which case they were already in partial paralysis. If some people manage to do it, is the moving of the fingers doing anything other than keeping you conscious, because there are other ways to do that that don't impede SP.

[BillyBob]

As many have said, there are only two ways to induce lucid dreams. Either one, you go directly from waking to dreaming, which is WILD. Or two, you do something during the daytime that will later help you to remember that you're in a dream, DILD. ____ All of the various WILD methods are just creative ways to help people relax and anchor themselves until they enter a lucid dream. Sure, some WILD methods will allow you to enter the dream more quickly or more consciously than others, but they all do exactly the same thing. All of the DILD methods, as Stephen LaBerge pointed out, are just ways to give people a better likelihood of realizing the dreamstate for what it is when they are in it. Things like reality checking, MILDing, and WBTBing are just different means to he same end: to cause people to be more critical of their immediate environment. ____ The reason there are so many different methods that all do the same thing is because there are so many different kinds of people. The methods are merely stepping stones. There is no correct method, or a 'perfect' thing to do in order to get everyone lucid dreams. We all view reality in a different way, so we each have our own way to get DILDs. We all think in different ways, so we each have our own way to WILD. Just keep in mind that there are only two basic ways to get lucid dreams, DILD and WILD, and view all of these "techniques" for inducing lucid dreams as all being equal means to an end. Some may seem silly to you, but hey, they must make sense to someone. Thus they are valid. We are each individuals, let individuals be individuals. Give people all the information and let them choose which is the best for them. Just make sure they understand this stuff I just mentioned, otherwise a bunch of ignorant biases may pop up.

[ninja9578]

We're doing that, we just don't think FILD works. Twitching muscles prevents SP unless you are already there. We just don't want people spending an hour twitching their hands trying to WILD and just ending up with sore fingers. Nice to see you posting in the forums again Billybob

[BillyBob]

We're doing that, we just don't think FILD works. Twitching muscles prevents SP unless you are already there. We just don't want people spending an hour twitching their hands trying to WILD and just ending up with sore fingers. Nice to see you posting in the forums again Billybob I've gotten FILD to work several times. I haven't exactly hooked myself up to a scientific instrument or anything, but I believe what happens is that you're so tired that you fall pretty much instantly into sleep paralysis. Since your not actually supposed to be moving your fingers with FILD (just sending out very minute signals to you hand), when SP hits this signal is transferred to the dreambody. Presto, lucid dream. Like I said, I have no way of knowing whether this is true or not, but I do know that I've used FILD to induce many lucid dreams.

[spaceexplorer]

As many have said, there are only two ways to induce lucid dreams. Either one, you go directly from waking to dreaming, which is WILD. Or two, you do something during the daytime that will later help you to remember that you're in a dream, DILD. ____ All of the various WILD methods are just creative ways to help people relax and anchor themselves until they enter a lucid dream. Sure, some WILD methods will allow you to enter the dream more quickly or more consciously than others, but they all do exactly the same thing. All of the DILD methods, as Stephen LaBerge pointed out, are just ways to give people a better likelihood of realizing the dreamstate for what it is when they are in it. Things like reality checking, MILDing, and WBTBing are just different means to he same end: to cause people to be more critical of their immediate environment. ____ The reason there are so many different methods that all do the same thing is because there are so many different kinds of people. The methods are merely stepping stones. There is no correct method, or a 'perfect' thing to do in order to get everyone lucid dreams. We all view reality in a different way, so we each have our own way to get DILDs. We all think in different ways, so we each have our own way to WILD. Just keep in mind that there are only two basic ways to get lucid dreams, DILD and WILD, and view all of these "techniques" for inducing lucid dreams as all being equal means to an end. Some may seem silly to you, but hey, they must make sense to someone. Thus they are valid. We are each individuals, let individuals be individuals. Give people all the information and let them choose which is the best for them. Just make sure they understand this stuff I just mentioned, otherwise a bunch of ignorant biases may pop up. This makes the most sense of ANYTHING i've read on this forum so far. Well done for being a lucid balanced individual. As i'm new and am not here to make friends or prove anything, I'll say things exactly as i see them. The problem here is not which method works, it's that certain individuals in this forum have come up with thier own "new" methods and are in competition with each other. Most of the arguing here is more about ego and people trying to prove they are "the one with the best method" rather than actually educate and share information wisely. If you don't agree with me, just read the title of this thread. The childish nature and the assumption that there is anything to be "busted" proves the point. Is this a competition? No. It's a group of people trying to learn how to lucid dream in the most successful way for themselves. Personally i don't take methods posted in forums all that seriously. I'd far rather go for well documented, scientifically researched methods that have been published by respected members of the lucid dream community. Those being the methods of people like S LaBerge, K Hearne, D Love, C Green etc. The whole idea of coming up with "new" methods as a way to get a badge of honour in a forum seems a little pointless and reminds me more of schoolyard behaviour than legitimate research and wanting to improve the field as a whole. I myself will be sticking with WBTB, MILD, CAT and the other well researched methods and then trying variations on these using my own intelligence. The difference between these 3 methods is that they all have a unique concept behind them. Most methods here (like DEILD, FILD etc.) seem to be hybrids or variations on these already established methods.

[PuppyCat]

Lawl. I have done FILD before. I tried DEILD, and it didn't work. (I woke up randomly) I did the FILD thing, and it worked splendidly. I waited until I saw HI, then started twitching my fingers. They were moving WAY more than they were supposed to, not just twitching, almost like a scissor movement. But sure enough, I felt a shift in my consciousness, and I did a RC. I was asleep in my bed, moving my fingers. I got up and started the dream :3

[Sabre2552]

This makes the most sense of ANYTHING i've read on this forum so far. Well done for being a lucid balanced individual. As i'm new and am not here to make friends or prove anything, I'll say things exactly as i see them. The problem here is not which method works, it's that certain individuals in this forum have come up with thier own "new" methods and are in competition with each other. Most of the arguing here is more about ego and people trying to prove they are "the one with the best method" rather than actually educate and share information wisely. If you don't agree with me, just read the title of this thread. The childish nature and the assumption that there is anything to be "busted" proves the point. Is this a competition? No. It's a group of people trying to learn how to lucid dream in the most successful way for themselves. Personally i don't take methods posted in forums all that seriously. I'd far rather go for well documented, scientifically researched methods that have been published by respected members of the lucid dream community. Those being the methods of people like S LaBerge, K Hearne, D Love, C Green etc. The whole idea of coming up with "new" methods as a way to get a badge of honour in a forum seems a little pointless and reminds me more of schoolyard behaviour than legitimate research and wanting to improve the field as a whole. I myself will be sticking with WBTB, MILD, CAT and the other well researched methods and then trying variations on these using my own intelligence. The difference between these 3 methods is that they all have a unique concept behind them. Most methods here (like DEILD, FILD etc.) seem to be hybrids or variations on these already established methods. I think you're seeing things completely wrong. No one is claiming their methods to be completely unique. The methods are not in competition with each other, there are just so many variations that the people here are trying to simplify as much as they can. I see none of the arguing and boasting of which you speak. I don't think people care as much as you think they do. People ARE educating and sharing information wisely. If someone is proud of a variation of a method they developed, that is because they feel it is more effective and refined than what is already available. It is in no way an ego, and a natural human emotion towards something that one helped to develop. This thread is in no way supporting your idea. It seems you never even read the thread, and are just going by the title. The idea of this thread is to see if the differences between DEILD and FILD are large enough to deserve two separate techniques when categorizing them. This topic has absolutely no ego, and intelligent discussion is plentiful. The term "busted" is used because it is a one-word, easily recognizable phrase that can be used to effectively summarize the contents of this thread so that a person skimming through the thread list may have an idea as to the discussion within without having to open it. You seem to be so pessimistic in that you try to find the fault in that which has little. People are in no way coming up with methods in order to get a badge of honor. It is all in the attempt to further the lucid dreaming goal: being able to have lucid dreams at will. These methods are more refined than their vague "legitimate" counterparts, and their detailed and complete attitudes allow people to grasp them more easily. Just because they are hybrids or variations does not make them inferior, which is the mindset you seem to have. You can stick with the most well known methods if you wish, but to ignore the hands-on experience of hundreds of people will just hurt you in the long run. Experiments do not have to be done in a laboratory to be successful. The lucid dreaming community is building off each other in order to reach their goals, and the tests and information shared is just as effective and important as someone in a lab coat. We may not be able to discover the science behind why methods work, but the experiences are equally important. If you don't want to contribute, fine, but do not blindly dismiss our research and goals as childish and pointless.

[Phantasos]

Have you done this? Our research showed that that doesn't work. Sleep paralysis won't come if you are twitching. The ones who tried it know how to get to sleep paralysis and do it often, but it wouldn't come while twitching fingers except for DEILDs, in which case they were already in partial paralysis. Kinda reviving dead thread but want to share my experience. I've successfully FILDed today after number of tryings before, and the main idea is that you should not really twitch fingers. It is more like you make a feeling of twitching, not actual twitching. It is somewhat similar to imagining of spinning lying at the bed. You do not really spin, you try to recreate this feeling. Here is the same - twitching should occur mostly in mind. And yes - there was no SP or it was very short. Transition was very smooth - I felt a soft wave of vibrations and thought that maybe it means I am in dream. I'd "twitched" little more and then made an RC - and it was dream.

[Clairity]

Phantasos, thanks for this.. maybe I can actually get FILD to work for me now that I've read your experience. .

[Echoes]

I disagree with most of the posters here I'm sorry to say. In my experience FILD is not like a DEILD at all. When I FILD and enter a dream the dream world is exactly like my bed room to start off, there is no difference between the reality and the dream until I perform a RC. So what I'm saying is that for me, that FILDS put me into a dream but not one that I have had before. THerefore they are not like DEILDs. Now of course this is just my experience I have very little knowledge of the technical definitions of the techniques

[hellohihello]

I disagree with most of the posters here I'm sorry to say. In my experience FILD is not like a DEILD at all. When I FILD and enter a dream the dream world is exactly like my bed room to start off, there is no difference between the reality and the dream until I perform a RC. So what I'm saying is that for me, that FILDS put me into a dream but not one that I have had before. THerefore they are not like DEILDs. Now of course this is just my experience I have very little knowledge of the technical definitions of the techniques Exactly. I am confused with what they are saying because when you wake up, you don't focus on your dream and it starts off as a FA. I couldn't try it last night. Trying again tonight.

[Shift]

I disagree with most of the posters here I'm sorry to say. In my experience FILD is not like a DEILD at all. When I FILD and enter a dream the dream world is exactly like my bed room to start off, there is no difference between the reality and the dream until I perform a RC. So what I'm saying is that for me, that FILDS put me into a dream but not one that I have had before. THerefore they are not like DEILDs. Now of course this is just my experience I have very little knowledge of the technical definitions of the techniques When you DEILD, aren't you supposed to be visualizing the dream you just ended or one you want to enter (at least that's how I do mine)? And when you FILD, aren't you visualizing a dream of you laying in your bed twitching your fingers? So really, doesn't it just depend on what you focus your attention on?

[Phantasos]

When you DEILD, aren't you supposed to be visualizing the dream you just ended or one you want to enter (at least that's how I do mine)? And when you FILD, aren't you visualizing a dream of you laying in your bed twitching your fingers? So really, doesn't it just depend on what you focus your attention on? Well, after a bit more experimenting I found that FILD is not DEILD at all. At first, using it immediately after dream and not moving will help but is not obligatory. Today I actually went to make some dark night deeds and decided to try it nevertheless. I tried one time (twitched about half or full minute), then another, and it worked at the second time. Wave of vibrations ran through my body, and I knew I am in dream (but did RC just to be sure). Second about imagining of twitching fingers. I also thought it was the case but now I see you indeed should twitch fingers but only by flexing muscules a bit, and you should not think or imagine anything just lay still and twitch your fingers a little little bit by small flexing of fingers. Another key point is not to be excited about it. Just think that it no difference will it work or will not - you win anyway (you get your LD or go to sleep which is also good). It is possible to try it few times in a row: failed first time, stay still for a minute or two, then try another.