My dreamwork - Any thoughts?

[labyrint]

I have been lurking this forum and beyond dreaming section for about a year now. After reading the article about Lucid Dreaming as Shamanic Consciousnes I decided to register and share some of my experiences and maybe get some insight about them. I'm very much into respecting dreams and learning from them and not trying to limit them with too much control. I've got many experiences of waking world acting in dreamlike manner and dialogues between my dreamscape and waking hours. Sometimes I think of these past years been like painfull but revarding initiation to shamanism. Which is far from over. I've gone through two long trips or psychotic episodes. After them my view of reality is not going back to channel normal. Now I'm in a state of integrating these experiences into my life, art and dreaming. Some of the ”places” I've been or ”entities” I've met have not been nice but more like a recurring nightmares. In some sense they are my inner darks but in some sense it's difficult deny their quasicollective nature. Dreamwork has been one of my best choices to cure the fear and confront the keepers of my virtual prisonworld. At least in there I feel more connection with freedom and things that offer me help with my quest. There are two main things I've been working with in past 1,5 years. First is to look after and repair house that has been most recurring, inspirating and homelike place inside my dreaming. Now dreams that are set there are changing towards the days of my best youth. But some work is still left and I'm not going to stop to that retrotrip but move forward after that healing. Second thing I've been working with is the relationship between me (I'm a man) and my anima (inner woman). Crazy thing is that it nowdays resembles more something from outside of me (like my dream- or spiritwife) than inner thing (my feminine side and feminine idealisation). Why I have done this is that I've been reflecting this idealisised mental image or story to some wakelife girls and girlfriends and that's not doing any good to any relationships. So I've been working with confronting this side in my dreams and altered states. Also I got this subplot that runs in my dreams (and sometimes also in my waking life) where I'm an freedom fighter or dream anarchist who wants to liberate collective dreaming from old powerstructures and when these dreams happen I'm not the only one fighting for freedom. This is short text about where I'm now with my dreamwork. I would appreciate you thoughts and pleace forgive my poor grammar. Labyrinth

[labyrint]

So no answers yet. Not giving up though My big picture (or current version of it) about this think called collective subconsciousness and archetypes that dwell there is based on stories. We can connect to this stories, beings, heroes, antiheroes, demons and/or gods a live the story and maybe help it to evolve. Maybe there is a some immaterial place where this things are real and living. Maybe we channel our imagination from there. I think they appear into our lives when we subconsciously or consciouly play those stories even in waking life. Be they eternal love and jealousy stories that are on repeat in Disney movies and soap operas or stories of war and heroism now also playable with computers. Thera are stories stories of inner growth and rebirths and everything. Interesting thing about those stories is how they evolve. I can read the old version of myths, fairy tales and folklore from books. But if a watch some mindbogling movie that covers the same story or read say a DC comics version of a myth Lucifer I can see how they change. Same think goes with my dreams. Maybe, just maybe, we help those stories to change. Not just by telling stories and writing books, but also by living them. Maybe our work with dreams changes reality in archetypical level and then some imaginatifull writer picks up then changed story and makes a fiction or popcultural story from it and brings it to common knowledge. And maybe our behaviournal patterns change also. Maybe wars end (or new ones begin). To my dreamwork it's good to know mytologies, religious settings, fictionverses and also stories how people have experienced world and themshelves in altered states of consciousness (be they shamans, psychonauts, scitsofrenics or ufo abductees). One of my big goals is to somehow free the story of Prometheus (the firebringer) from his eternal punishment. Labyrinth

[saltyseedog]

sooo what your saying is that there is an immaterial plane of conciousness where thought/imagination exists and we effect each other subconciously at that level? Thats pretty much what I've been thinking about recently. It makes sense to me. Explains telepathy.

[juroara]

I like the idea of changing archetypes. Its makes a lot of sense actually to try and create change from the subconscious level.

[labyrint]

sooo what your saying is that there is an immaterial plane of conciousness where thought/imagination exists and we effect each other subconciously at that level? Thats pretty much what I've been thinking about recently. It makes sense to me. Explains telepathy. I'm saying maybe there is. To my mind and experiences it would make a perfect sense. I see it as something like Platos world of ideas but it's also more about (archetypical) stories and beings. More dynamic and changing and dreamlike place than the world of ideas. Maybe in this place is even metalevel of pure and constant and not changing eternal ideas. I can not rule that out, but that's not what I'm interested about. I'm more interested in those parts of immateria that are closest to this world and time, in mythology and dreams of today. I think that gateway to this "realm" lies inside of us. When we get inspiration, new ideas, new dreams and views about world we are coming close to it. It's like through our subconscious we can reach level of collective subconscious, and maybe in some sense it's more than a psychological metaphora. Name of the realm Immateria and many ideas how I view it comes from Alan Moores comic series Promethea which is mostly about dreams, imagination and magic. It's good reading that may mess up or sharpen your view of reality. At least it did so with me. The main chracter Promethea (female incarnation of Prometeus myth) even visited me in to dreams. Crazy thing was that the dreams went ultra real. In comic this ultra realness is done with using photagrafic imaginery all the sudden. In my dreams it was like changicg from crappy youtube video to hd tv. Where youtube has been normal sensory input aka normal visual world and hd tv was something I've never experianced before. I like the idea of changing archetypes. Its makes a lot of sense actually to try and create change from the subconscious level. There are at least two options how this could effect. One is that you change archetypes that play part in your subconsciousness and by that you create change or growth in you. Maybe you can even help to change archetypes in collective subconscious level when you really change the under current of world. That is if this collective level is something more than metaphora. If you do this you can get the feedback by running into some new version of some old story in your waking life. I know this is more like a mind game I'm doing to myself but I want to share the idea of possibility. And it's no waste in trying course what at least should be possible is that you can help yourself to overcome problems. So first work with fictional archetypical beings and stories that affect your life and lifestory. Word of warning is that some changes in stories can lead to intense paths till the story is told to the point of change. Like if your reviewing LOTR giving ring to Boromir might lead to some serious sidetrack. But then again, it's an adventure. Thanks for comments Labyrinth

[Philosopher8659]

Well, you realize that many people dont believe that dreams are a form of communication. It is, and it is all about freedom. Dreams are a place to learn. But one has to at some point realize what freedom is. You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. It has to do with judgment--the function of the human mind. You want to help change the world, you have to learn about the mind, language, judgment. Dreams are a learning environment. There is a teacher there, however, you have to actually learn, not learn to repeat. You have to learn to use your mind differently. To think by definition, and principles.

[labyrint]

Well, you realize that many people dont believe that dreams are a form of communication. It is, and it is all about freedom. Dreams are a place to learn. But one has to at some point realize what freedom is. You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. It has to do with judgment--the function of the human mind. You want to help change the world, you have to learn about the mind, language, judgment. Dreams are a learning environment. There is a teacher there, however, you have to actually learn, not learn to repeat. You have to learn to use your mind differently. To think by definition, and principles. Thank you for your thoughts. These may go bit off-topic but I take time to trying to answer. I think I agree that dreams are about freedom and communication. Maybe even all about freedom which can be divided (if you like to) or described by lot of diffrent ways. I'm little bit afraid that rational filosophical way of speaking about dreams doesn't do them so much justice. Some of my experiences have been more pardoxal and mystical. I can try to put them in words, but I know that many of the biggest things have to be experienced directly to unlock the mystery. Poetical language, questions, stories and metaphores seem to be better ways of speaking about them. When it comes to judgement, I'm aware of the mechanism if you mean me judging you and me judging myself. I'm on way to freedom but those mechanism are very hard-wired. Maybe I have taken the right step by first becoming aware of it. I don't see that there is one right way to undo the mechanisms. Blaming something for it most certainly isn't the way. Some of my work with archetypes is about overcoming judgment. Be it some kind of gnostic mystery play or meeting the judges (mainly my friends and how I reflect them to my dreams). I might be the judge and they might judge me, and it doesn't have to be worldly judgment but also settings of the situation. Sometimes it's about god and sin. It can take form of any given psychological or philosophical system I'm familiar with. From a certain point those all seem to be metphores of personal freedom. In dreams you can change the old story and change the pattern that is in repeat. This leads to change in recurring themes and also discoveries in waking life. It is that my mind works often in very sympolistic state and storylike manner. Getting rid of it seems stupid because that is how I like to travel for now. It's how I go forward till it changes. I have some connetion to some kind of let's say source that lies everywhere, outside and behind my dualistic and egoridden self. When I spoke about virtual prisonworld I was, in some sense, referring to that limited self. It also includes my worldview or views. On the other hand (looking from point of that limited me) I got the experience that this "prison" is also outside and somehow collective, yet very rich labyrinthlike. From the point of view of this not so limited source this prison seems very trivial and not scary, more like a collection of plays that are illusionary in nature. Where good plays bad and vice versa. Okay, it was long response. I noticed that I'm not good with using english passive so I have been using lot of you instead. I don't mean to say that anyone should think as I think. Labyrinth

[saltyseedog]

philosohy challenges the mind. The mind holds illusions. The heart holds truth. You may hold some vision of truth, but truth can be found in a lie.

[Philosopher8659]

.I'm little bit afraid that rational filosophical way of speaking about dreams doesn't do them so much justice. Some of my experiences have been more pardoxal and mystical. I can try to put them in words, but I know that many of the biggest things have to be experienced directly to unlock the mystery. Poetical language, questions, stories and metaphores seem to be better ways of speaking about them.. Metaphor is logical. It works because all members of a class are members of a class by a common definition, an equality. For example, you can target a member of a class by naming other members, but not the target. The Scripture uses this technique. You are blind, lame, poor, etc, when the target is the one not mentioned, the human mind. Just part of class mechanics. It is a means of determining if you call to mind the definition of the given class. i.e. that which maintains and promotes your life. In any event, the mind has a very specific job to do, the manipulation of reality through symbolic means in order to effect human will that maintains and promotes the life of the body. Now, one can believe that a function of the mind is not related to the mind, which is irrational, or that dream, in some measure, exercise rational ability. Perhaps it is important how we react to irrational content-----. And, if it is a form of communication, how you react to the content, tells quite a bit about your psychological development as an individual of a species by testing how well connected the processes of the mind are to its function and how it functions. The connection between reality and thought must become tautological in order to perform its task. I.e. in a metaphor "You shall love the Lord thy God with all they body, mind, soul." because God, is given as a metaphor for truth, which is all powerful, all seeing, and creator of every thing. The mind uses NOP through metaphor also, so that when facts are learned, we simply plug them in without much disruption in the psychological matrix, such as God as an anthropomorphism to God as Truth. The correct construction of mythology itself is based upon the function of the human mind, and where it must eventually arrive at. Not all religions were spirious creations. There is definitly one of them that will translate into fact. This I know for sure. Great dialecticians know this link between ability and result and the role that mythology has to play in it. Plato, Christ, Confucius. And so, it is the same mind that can construct great pieces of logic that can also create great works of mythology--for both have the same end in view, and both know the processes of metaphor. Rationality is a craft, and it takes considerable time to learn the craft. During this time, mythology, through the use of metaphor, is designed to manipulate emotion to the same ends that rationality will eventually achieve. When the defining characteristic of the metaphor is eventually understood, one transcends into the rational without any great psychological disturbance. One of the indicators of transition is when one can no longer support what they thought a certain word means, such as God. The first reaction is to deny the validity of the construction altogether, the next is to learn what the term means by how it was actually described in the text, then one can see what class it actually resides in. One comes to realize that what they thought a thing refers to, could not possibly exist, however, what it actually refers to is undeniable. God as something external becomes internalized, and thus the fulfillment of prophecy, we become like God, in judgment. i.e. We shall know the truth and the truth shall set us free. I.e. biological fact for the functioning of any environmental acquisition system of a living organism. There is a real mastery of mythology to learn even for those who pride themselves on their rational development. The closer one gets to being truly rational, the more one will see that what passes for certain mythologies are nothing but metaphor derived from physical facts of reality. Until that time, it remains in order to effect human action through emotion. Now, if none of this makes sense to you, could you at least find me a girl friend?

[Philosopher8659]

philosohy challenges the mind. The mind holds illusions. The heart holds truth. You may hold some vision of truth, but truth can be found in a lie. Heart is an old metaphor for mind. It works this way, as perception determines conception, conception determines will. The heart, what it takes in, is exactly what is inside, is exactly what it puts out for the life of the body. Emotion is actually related to blood pressure. No emotion, your dead. Therefor, you contradicted yourself. The real mind tease is that it was constructed as a metaphor before man knew human physiology. Chew on that one. Using heart as a metaphor for emotion when emotion is part of the mind is saying that the part contradicts the whole, which is completely irrational. Everything is composed of two elements, a material difference and a form. Emotion is the material difference, the form is rationality. This makes something called mind. They are not opposed, but both needed to make something called individuality--us. Without the material there is no us, without a form, there is no us. We craft what we are with these two elements. The greatest rational people also have the greatest emotional content.