Dreamwalkers/Nightstalkers Made Up (No great shock)

[moonshine]

One of the kookier ideas I've encountered in DV forum are the manga fanboy inspired tales of Dreamwalkers/Nightstalkers. http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=37621 Now its not usually hard to find cultish info on the internet, but having googled the same, the only references I've found to DWs and NSs have been a handful of discussion threads on other lucid dreaming websites. And in each case they refer straight back to the DV forums. http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=9894 http://www.ld4all.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33867 http://www.lucidipedia.com/forum/ind...iewtopic&t=723 Clearly the DW/NS meme originated here. In all honesty its a slightly hackneyed fantasy storyline, but I'm sure someone had fun stitching it together and throwing it out into the world. Probably no great shocker to most that its made up. The only real surprise is the number of DV members who seem to take this fireside tale seriously.

[no-Name]

Probably no great shocker to most that its made up. It's great that you have an opinion. The only real surprise is the number of DV members who seem to take this fireside tale seriously. But I'm not going to let this thread exist for the sole purpose of bashing BDers. Do you have anything constructive to add to this thread, or should I just lock it?

[moonshine]

Bashing all BDers? Doesn't that assume that Beyond Dreamers all believe everything they read in the BD forum. I would give them more credit. This isn't in the BD forum with its softly softly rules of engagement (in which I would not be allowed to post). And I'm not bashing Karma, or religion, or OBE's or dream sharing. I'm hoping to discuss something which is by all accounts a very recent (and it appears limited) attempt at generating an internet meme. The DW/MS tales clearly originated on the DV forums. The evidence is apparent. I would have thought this fact was relevant and worthy of discussion. I believe that debunking something which was most certainly invented to be constructive. I would hope to have the same right to expressing my beliefs as those who post in the Beyond Dreaming section.

[hellohihello]

What's the importance of this thread anyways. Most of the people out of the BD don't believe it, and this can't go in BD because you disprove it. It's only partly possible if there was a ghost/entity in your house to enter your mind or some weird thing like that.

[moonshine]

What's the importance of this thread anyways. Most of the people out of the BD don't believe it, and this can't go in BD because you disprove it. It important because its a fact worth knowing. Especially for younger more vunerable posters who might easily be swayed into believing cartoon like fantasies.

[moonshine]

The post below reveals where the original idea came from. http://forums.astraldynamics.com/vie...st=0&sk=t&sd=a I spent several hours with a fellow LD'er digging up what we could find... If you have a look for yourself you will find in Lex's first post "they were talking about this over at club beach" I found the club beach forum which is a jap anime site. I found the thread she was talking about and no one else mentioned nightstalkers, she brang it up, then another person confirmed it - Aeronolio, who is also known as Sanzora on DV (they have identical avatars). They both signed up on DV almost at the same time, they both live in South Africa, both like jap anime, and both like RPG games. If you have a look at World of Warcraft, you will see the terms "Dreamwalker" and "Nightstalker" plastered all over it. The thing is.. their story implies that these 'nightstalkers' and 'dreamwalkers' and 'rogues' are all ordinary people who are part of a 'faction' (commonly used term in WoW), that know how to go into others dreams and taunt them. Not only has shared dreaming never been confirmed with a reputable account, it would serve absolutely no purpose to go into other peoples dreams. They are immature girls deluded with their own fantasy. It appears I wasn't to far of the mark with my theory about the memes origins. Someone at DV picked up on it and ran with it. All quite inventive really.

[Caradon]

I don't believe in them either. But seriously, I couldn't care less who does, or who doesn't. I actually find it rather humorous that you are so concerned about it, that you would go through all this trouble, to tell us how much you hate the idea of them. Keep at it.

[moonshine]

I don't believe in them either. But seriously, I couldn't care less who does, or who doesn't. I actually find it rather humorous that you are so concerned about it, that you would go through all this trouble, to tell us how much you hate the idea of them. Keep at it. The fact that you were compelled to post here seems to tell a different story. Please don't spam my thread.

[Caradon]

The fact that you were compelled to post here seems to tell a different story. Lol, what different story? Enlighten me. Really, I don't care if you don't like the idea of dramwalkers. I just think it's funny, And a little odd, that you are so vocal about it.

[oniman7]

First, you get the thread locked. That was a great achievement, by the way. You managed to get a thread locked after it had been going for two years. And now, two months later, you come back here to degrade anybody who believed in it. Does it make you accomplished to sit at your computer and do this? EDIT: And by the way, this whole thread is centered around... well, you saying how all of this is made up. I fail to see how caradon was spamming.

[moonshine]

First, you get the thread locked. That was a great achievement, by the way. You managed to get a thread locked after it had been going for two years. And now, two months later, you come back here to degrade anybody who believed in it. Does it make you accomplished to sit at your computer and do this? Why would you think that I got the original thread locked up? I have to say though, shutting down a misguided attempt at starting an internet cult is no great loss. Are you saying you believe this stuff? Even knowing that Cusp, our self declared resident Nightwalker was fully aware of the origins of the "legend" as he attempted to expand the mythology? I wouldn't say I want to "degrade" you. But I do feel slightly embarassed for you. EDIT: And by the way, this whole thread is centered around... well, you saying how all of this is made up. I fail to see how caradon was spamming. Spamming is contributing nothing to the discussion or the thread topic. Like for example posting twice to let anyone know just how much you don't actually care LOL. Interestingly Caradon can be found elsewhere lobbying for a password protected beyond dreaming forum where prejudiced people who are offended by the topics can be excluded if they start acting like a jerk in there Its a shame that Caradon is unwilling to treat others as he'd like to be treated.

[oniman7]

First of all, I did believe in it at first. I eventually caught on, but it was still one of my favorite BD type threads. It was you and that other person who kept arguing back and forth. The moderator (think it was No-Name in this case) even told you to stop the argument and continue it over private messages. Second, why won't you put up the whole quote from caradon? I'm not going to believe he's said that unless you do. EDIT: Alright, here's the full quote: "I'm not sure you understand. The private forum is intended to be the laid back one. Where people can discuss things that they are into without the intrusion of prejudiced people who are offended by the topics. And if someone starts acting like a jerk in there, their access to it can be taken away. I think it would be a pretty peaceful forum for the most part, with little need to moderate at all." I think this more describes you than him, moonshine.

[Caradon]

Thank you oniman7. Moonshine. I apologize for making my post sound a bit rude. But what I said was exactly true, so I can't fully take it back without being a liar. Most times I do try to be as friendly and respectful as I can, even under the most annoying of circumstances. I truly don't understand why someone would care so much about what others are into, to be obsessing about it the way you seem to be. I get what your trying to say about young impressionable minds being tricked or what not. But I don't really buy that over much. The truth is, that people who want to believe in these kinds of things, are going to. Regardless of what you, or anybody else may say about it. Your just going to get yourself all worked up for nothing at all. That's my final word on both this subject, and of the private forum proposal. I've said about all there is to say about it. It's up to the staff now, to decide what the right thing to do is. -Caradon out.

[hisnameistyler]

In my opinion, I don't really see what the problem is with Moonshine's thread/posts. Don't bash me here, I'm neutral. If he wants to go out of his way to disprove the theory of dreamwalking and nightstalking, by all means, we should let him. It doesn't effect those in BD section because he is not being disrespectful to them. Caradon, Oniman, Moonshine, none of this is directed at you and I am NOT bashing you guys. I just think that if Moonshine would like to disprove this theory,then perhaps we should just let him go about his business, and you guys can go about yours. That way, you aren't getting into a big fuss over this, and all is well.

[Caradon]

I completely agree. Like I said, I'm out of it. Do what you will everybody, I'm getting back to dreaming.

[ChaybaChayba]

I think moonshine is one of the very few persons on this forum who actually takes dreamwalkers/nightstalkers so seriously. Tomorrow he is going to start a thread debunking santa claus

[Arutad]

Why are some people acting so strange here? I can't understand your reasons. This thread is totally ok, moonshine investigated where the idea originated and shared the results. There's no objective reason to react to it negatively that I can see at all. So why are you so vehemently defending what others think even if your don't think so? That's unheard of. Totally baffling. The references are pretty interesting, too. When I first came here I saw all those threads dedicated to nightstalkers and assumed that it was a normal topic for English-speaking Internet, widespread like an urban myth. I assumed that "nightstalkers" was a widespread word connected to a widespread myth. But if it's not, it's surely interesting.

[oniman7]

Being an avid player of video games, I can assure you it's not new. The earliest reference I know of (keep in mind I haven't played many older games) would be Dark Cloud 2 in roughly 2003. It's basically a thing in a cloak that throws bombs at you. I just assumed it had been adapted for this. My problem is not so much that Moonshine decided to prove it, but that he's decided to try and make The Cusp seem bad at every turn. And yet, his only problem is with The Cusp is his whole Nightwalkers/ Dreamstalkers thing. I know that's the point to this thread, but after the original post, he hasn't had much useful to say. I suppose I was wrong, too. Some of this should have been carried out in PM. However, Moonshine, this is not the way to get things done. You've basically been whining about how The Cusp is posting BD topics in regular forums. If I remember correctly, you even tried to get his Dream Control guide because it contained some discussion of the Nightstalkers and Dreamalkers.

[Arutad]

The earliest reference I know of (keep in mind I haven't played many older games) would be Dark Cloud 2 in roughly 2003. It's basically a thing in a cloak that throws bombs at you. Were they actually called "dreamwalkers"? I too played a game called Mask of the Betrayer, it gave you a dreamwalking ability and actually called it that. But it was poorly executed. The concept is surely not new, dreamwalking is a famous myth. What's new is when somebody coins a new term, or when somebody says that there's a particular group and brings up this fact again and again. My problem is not so much that Moonshine decided to prove it, but that he's decided to try and make The Cusp seem bad at every turn. Are you The Cusp's close friend and know him so well that you know for sure that he's not "bad"? If not, your opinion is as good as any other. Personally I feel ashamed for people posting in his threads, some behave as if he's a guru of some sort. But I can't even agree with most of what he says, it's dead wrong in my own experience. He looks like an attention seeker who doesn't really know anything, but consciously sells his fantasy stuff to people who don't seriously care for practical application of it and thus can be fed anything. I might be wrong about consciously, but that's my opinion for now. Will you also call this opinion "whining" just because you don't like it? That's not serious.

[oniman7]

I will say that he has been wrong, however, I find myself a friend of The Cusp, and I find it right to at least defend him when he's not here. This: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=78031 is what I call whining. It serves no use other than to degrade other people or prove himself right. I mean, OK, maybe it contains hints of BD. He actually went out of his way to suggest it be moved/ deleted. What possible good would that do anybody? You say he consciously sells his fantasy who to people who don't want to use it for practical means. I agree and disagree. Reading that strictly from an educational standpoint, it taught me a lot about the focus of attention as it relates to dreams. On a separate note, the things in the game were called Night Stalkers.

[Arutad]

He actually went out of his way to suggest it be moved/ deleted. What possible good would that do anybody? And what possible bad would removal of some obvious lies do? Reading that strictly from an educational standpoint, it taught me a lot about the focus of attention as it relates to dreams. That's exactly what I spoke about. You're one of people who don't care for practical applications so it's easy to be your guru. It's like a willing game of pretense. Tell me what his attention theory could "teach" you if it's incorrect? You never even tried it out, so your certainty that it has taught you something is an imaginary feeling that you chose to have for whatever reasons. But I thought that we were trying to control dreams in Dream Control forum. Turns out it's not true, some people read it for self-deceit P.S. As for games, in another game I played there were "nightwalkers", although they had nothing to do with dreams at all. Looks like it's the same in case of the game you mentioned, with nightstalkers throwing around bombs.

[ClouD]

Hmm, this thread (given the current situation with rules and BD) should be in Extended Discussion. I'll move and redirect in a second. The thread topic is fine, if you can all minus any insults and off-topic banter. I'm all for truth, whatever that might be, but just try to keep it civil, thank you. If you want to respond to this post, then PM me. Any further off-topic banter may be deleted. Personally, I say argue/discuss whether NS/DW exist etc, but keep in mind this isn't conclusive evidence to the idea of a 'fantasy', just supporting.

[moonshine]

And what possible bad would removal of some obvious lies do? Indeed. Thanks Arutad. My problem is not so much that Moonshine decided to prove it, but that he's decided to try and make The Cusp seem bad at every turn. And yet, his only problem is with The Cusp is his whole Nightwalkers/ Dreamstalkers thing. I know that's the point to this thread, but after the original post, he hasn't had much useful to say. I suppose I was wrong, too. Some of this should have been carried out in PM. However, Moonshine, this is not the way to get things done. You've basically been whining about how The Cusp is posting BD topics in regular forums. If I remember correctly, you even tried to get his Dream Control guide because it contained some discussion of the Nightstalkers and Dreamalkers. FYI Oniman, you were the first person to mention The Cusp on this thread. If he looks bad its because of the facts. Was he heavily involved in the NS/DW discussions? Yes! Has he attempted do spread discussions to other forums? Yes! During this attempt did he find out the true fictional origin of the NS/DW meme? Yes! Has he continued trying to spread discussion of NS/DW meme since he became aware of this critical fact? Yes! Has he in fact attempted to spread discussion of NS/DW outside the BD Section? Yes! Doesn't look great.

[ClouD]

I need to go now, but please keep to on-topic discussion about the validity, and not about other members supporting something you might not.

[moonshine]

I need to go now, but please keep to on-topic discussion about the validity, and not about other members supporting something you might not. Cloud, firstly, I have to disagree with this thread being moved Off-topic. If the original discussions of were in the Sleep and Dreams section, surely this should be too. Whether I believe in it or not I'm not discussing dream sharing or similar. I'm discussing this fantastical tribe of MMORPG like mystical warriors who wander from dream to dream challenging dreamers to manga-esque duels. There is clear evidence as to the fictional nature of the same. How can I challenge the validity without providing the evidence? As to The Cusps involvement, do you not consider it relevant if someone is willfully trying to mislead the DV members?