OBE Skeptics.

[Rainman]

I've been reading little posts here and there from people who are skeptical to the idea that OBEs are possible. That's fine, I've said it before and I'll say it again, that I have no problem with non-believers. I have a problem with assholes. Why are so many people so goddamn hard pressed to prove OBEs don't exist? What is it to you? If you don't believe they exist, good for you..but what do you care if other people do? By the way, explain validations? If OBEs aren't real, explain validations. I know people who can, and I have projected in a room with something written on paper, read it, and remembered it when I woke up to see that I was correct, and verified by another party. I'm not too great at RTZ/Etheric OBEs but there are many people who are. If you can explain to me how that's possible without it being an OBE, I'm very open minded to ideas, unlike most of you skeptics who refuse to even CONSIDER anything but fellow skeptics' opinions. Just because something can't be proven..YET..doesn't mean it is automatically fake. And science isn't god. All knowledge is based on previous knowledge, and all previous knowledge is based on further previous knowledge. Everything...EVERYTHING is RELATIVE, and therefore NO aspect of science can be proven as CERTAIN. Now before some idiot flames me because of not reading what i said CAREFULLY, I said no aspect of science can be PROVEN as certain. I didn't say nothing is certain. Just that no scientific law/theory/whatever can be proven as certain. All scientific "knowledge" is based on other previous "knowledge", and all scientific "knowledge" is based on the fact that there have not yet been any counter examples, and until there is a counter example, we assume that it is true how it stands. Hahaha. That's a great method. And this is the science-system everyone warships like it's a fucking god. It's not written in stone. It's only "certain" until a counter example comes along, and one often does. Insulting others' intelligence because of "lack of scientific evidence" is hilariously hypocritical. What is scientific evidence? Scientific evidence is just a couple of words that are supposed to make us feel like we know something. Knowledge is only valid in the context of pre-established knowledge, and that is an inarguable fact. So you're gonna need to chill with the belittling us people who believe in OBEs, it's getting pretty fucking annoying. I don't care if you don't believe it. That's your choice, but is it necessary to be such a goddamn asshole? No. It's not. There was a time when everyone thought lucid dreams were bullshit too. The idea of the internet? Bullshit. Flying machines? Bullshit. A vehicle that can move faster than sound? Bullshit. But everyone believed it as soon as there was a counter example. The first plane. That rocket car thing. Stephen Laberge came along and proved that lucid dreams actually happen. Who are you to look down your nose at people who believe in OBEs? If you don't believe it, I really can't blame you, and more power to ya. But you cannot prove that they DON'T exist. So hating on members and even passively suggesting that they are not intelligent or inferior because they believe something that you do not, that you cannot even disprove is completely absurd. Some of you should seriously grow up. </rant>.

[Sivason]

Let skeptics argue that OBE dose not exist, they say we can't prove it. There is absolutely no proof lucid dreams exist!!! I will say it again! No PROOF lucid dreams exist!!! They do and so do OBE but who needs to prove it, let them limit their own experiance, you know what you experiance.

[Dallian]

That's a long post. I didn't read it. Would it suffice to say that I don't have an opinion about OBE's one way or another?

[LucidFlanders]

Lucid dream is just a name we gave controlling your dreams, just like space, universe, earth, etc. I hate when people say so and so is impossible so much! just because they/we cannot understand it right now. Obviously the world is really flat because it's impossible to think eitherwise or whatever lame thing people wanna make up because they can't get past their own problem of thinking and when people have no sense of wonder, or are complatly 1 sided it's unreal. I dunno about OBE's...i mean there are cases where people float to other places in the world and see/hear things . I read a story where someone was out of their body and went down the hall in the hospital he was in and saw his sister crying..he came back to his body later and she said she was crying at the place he saw her at...i mean explain that! maybe psychic ability, or OBE...who knows. Or hell read this... http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html Explain how she knew how the b-1 bone saw blade looked like while being brain dead, with all blood drained from her head? not to mention everything was fine n all the electronics keeping an eye on her while she was dead. Dont care about the rest because that's probably just neurons and the retinas.

[Mes Tarrant]

Sigh... I don't know if this is "proof", but please for the love of anything that matters to you, read LaBerge's book before you so passionately say you can't prove lucid dreams, okay? He did experiments in his lab to try to prove these things, otherwise his whole PhD work would not have been taken seriously. If you don't like people going on and on about OBEs not existing, don't read the threads. Just go on with your life believing whatever you want to.. why do you care. :p

[Sivason]

Hey you again. Well I do not care. Read that other thread we were on. I am just being a loud mouth saying nothing is enough proof for someone to say it is totaly proven. I am a science geek, it is something from imperical science. Only a few LAWS of nature exists, as in indisputable. Everything else is just commonly believed to be true. But I did post a serious question for you on the other thread.

[Mes Tarrant]

Hey you again. Well I do not care. Read that other thread we were on. I am just being a loud mouth saying nothing is enough proof for someone to say it is totaly proven. I am a science geek, it is something from imperical science. Only a few LAWS of nature exists, as in indisputable. Everything else is just commonly believed to be true. But I did post a serious question for you on the other thread. Ah sorry, so many of these

[MindDaguerreotype]

I know people who can, and I have projected in a room with something written on paper, read it, and remembered it when I woke up to see that I was correct, and verified by another party. What are you waiting for to apply for the million dollar challenge ? I'm serious here. If you, or your friends, or someone in this thread, can do the validation "at home", go and prove it once and for all in a lab to advance the debate. If so many people can do this, why nobody ever succeeded in a controlled, repeatable experiment ? Hahaha. That's a great method. And this is the science-system everyone warships like it's a fucking god. Yeah, I wonder how this stupid method gave us 95% of all the science and technology that runs the world today. OK, less sarcasm now. You're right about the method; nothing can be proven. We can only say that past observations fit in a theory, and that the theory accuratly predicts future observations. When this breaks, the theory must be replaced by a better one. Relativity and Quantum theory where "bullshit" too. But with the time, opposing scientists had to see the evidence: they were more accurate with observations than the previous theories, and so became accepted. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", so in the current scientific context, OBEs need a strict protocol of experimentation, with numerous cases to be better than "statistical coincidence". Science cannot "prove" that "OBEs do not exist"; it just says (or should say) that "OBEs do not fit at all in the current theory, and are very improbable". However, you can prove that they exist by providing a counter-example. Scientists are quite conservative, true. It's human nature, reinforced by the scientific method. You may think it's frustrating (I did), but look at it this way: it's not to prevent progress, but to prevent regression. Science is currently successful, and was built by patient refinement of theories. We can't break everything at the first anomaly; it needs big problems to make big changes (Quantum theory was such a case). Should we accept OBEs "as is", and take them as a postulate to build theories above ? No, because "out of body experience" is one theory to explain some subjective facts (or objective ones, when you compare what you "read" with the real paper). Other theories could exist, which could be outside of orthodox science too, and be believed by people. In this case, who is right, you, or them ? If you don't believe them, who is the skeptic ? You need the scientific method to tell. - One theory: You never went "outside of your body"; but you did, unconsciously, communicate by telepathy with the one who wrote on the paper. Your subconcious then created an hallucination with it. - A variation: There is no astral plane, but there is a collective consciousness linking every brains by radiowaves emitted by neurons, letting you visit places far away as long as someone else has been there too. - Another one, more "orthodox": No telepathy, but a very powerfull subconcious able to use the smallest hints from your real senses to reconstruct the world. For example, by just subliminally hearing the sound in the other room, it could reconstruct what was written just by the "scritch scratch" of the pen on the paper. (there was a case of a "savant horse" able to do mathematical operations given verbally. Turns out, it couldn't answer if no human present actually knew the answer. It is very possible that it just was very sensitive to the "expectations" of people and computed this way instead of being mathematically intelligent or psychic. Which is still impressive.) I don't say that OBEs are "absolutely impossible", just very improbable. By being skeptical, I think human knowledge will progress more on the long term (even if each transition is frustrating) because we can't jump to conclusions "just because we feel it". Each of my alternative theories is as acceptable as the OBE theory, but leads to very different directions about the nature of consciousness or physiology. Only strict experiment protocol will tell. And waiting for old scientists in charge of research to die, to be replaced by people with different preconceptions, of course.

[Rainman]

I appreciate everyone's reply. Thank you, Mind, you raise a good point. I have thought about the quite likely possibility that an OBE is simply a lucid dream with a sort of telepathic connection. At the moment it would be kind of hard to prove that OBEs exist solely with validations because it's pretty hard to do them consitantly. RTZ and Etheric projections are difficult. The concept that there are other dimensional planes of space and time makes sense to me. The only aspect of OBE I can prove right now is etheric energy. Etheric energy can, and probably has been measured by infrared/thermal cameras. The movement of etheric energy can be controlled by the conscious mind. Many people know etheric energy by another name like Chi flow or something, but they are all the same thing. Etheric energy. During a projection, much of this etheric energy is focused around eight points of the body most people call chakras. This can be measured as well. As for the OBE itsself I'm not sure yet. They are quite different from a lucid dream. Who knows, maybe it really is just a lucid dream. It seems like that'd be impossible though. Unless we're all potentially telepathic Anyway, again, no problem with skepticsm, just people who can't have an intelligent argument for their position, and feels the need to just be insulting and rude instead of speaking like a mature adult. And there are a lot of those on DV sadly. I'm glad I've recently had soem people raise some good arguments from a nonpersonal point of view. Thanks everyone. And by the way, Mas_Tarrant.. If you don't like people going on and on about OBEs not existing, don't read the threads. Just go on with your life believing whatever you want to.. why do you care. This is the beyond dreaming forum. In big bold letters on the caption to this board it says "Note that this board is only for people who believe in the mentioned topics". Why should I stop reading threads about people with OBE questions, IN the Beyond Dreaming forum, which is not here so that skeptics can argue? I don't think you fully got me. I don't care if people don't believe what I believe. If I did, that would make me a big jackass. No, I just have a problem with members that come into this board in particular, but others as well and feel the need to insult members such as myself who believe in OBEs. What do you believe in Tarrant? If I insulted you/your intelligence, repeatedly simply because you believe in [x], in a place where you and other people met to discuss it, are you telling me you wouldn't be offended? If that's the case, you're a really peaceful person, and that's really admirable, but you can't blame me for getting pissed off about it Edit* Sivason, there is completely conclusive evidence that lucid dreams exist. Read Dr. Stephen Laberge's book, "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming". It's got an entire chapter about it.

[EagleEye]

I've been reading little posts here and there from people who are skeptical to the idea that OBEs are possible. That's fine, I've said it before and I'll say it again, that I have no problem with non-believers. I have a problem with assholes.</rant>. Skepticism is to be expected when discussing topics of this nature. Everyone has a right to express his/her opinions and relate experiences (or lack thereof). I'm on the fence about what causes OBE-like experiences because I haven't had any and haven't studied the subject in depth. But, I don't doubt that people who claim OBEs experience something. I only know one person who claims to have experienced repeated OBEs, my favorite aunt. MindDaguerreotype's 3 possible hypotheses are case in point why skepticism exists. I'm sure there are other explanations that have been proffered for the phenomenon. My opinion is that science is a tool and one of the better ones that human beings have. But, sometimes you need more than one tool to get a job done, and not all tools fit all jobs. We also have our reason and analytical abilities, intuition, and understanding of psychology to help us learn more about what's going on. Perhaps the cause of OBE-like events can be explored by science effectively, perhaps not. Until then, personal experience, reason, and open-minded exploration should have a role in forming your opinions. You can't expect thinking people to believe something as subjective as OBE without them applying their reason, analysis, intuition, and personal experience, too. Some folks are even going to ask for scientific proof for the subject and seemingly unprovable - G*d, afterlife, the soul, etc. Let folks ask if they need to. It's up to them to find proof or confirm lack of proof as they see fit. You base your beliefs on your reason, integrity and experience, and they on theirs. No one is a hypocrite, no one is a convert. You're right about the attitude thing. I've seen multiple instances on this board (and others) where opinions are expressed in a derogatory, immature, and insulting manner. It becomes more about precious little egos and 'winning' arguments than the subject being discussed. It's detrimental to learning, exchanging info/ideas, and building our community of lucid dreamers. Disagreement can be done respectfully and in a way that clarifies issues instead of clouding them with bad feelings and resentment.

[Rainman]

It's good to see someone acknowledge all of those things. You are absolutely right and I would never try to take away validity from skeptic opinions. Skepticism is a natural part of any argument of this nature as you said, and I've got no problem with that. Skeptics have every reason to be skeptical if they are from a scientific background. My only issue is with those people who make the argument about personal competition. And even when there is no debate happening, I have seen members just straigt out insult other members for mentioning something about OBEs. I am bothered only by that, not by their ideas. Your outlook on science is very interesting and you have a good point. I have a deep respect for science, and I probably didn't make that very clear. My thing is simply that science cannot explain everything. Scientific laws are based only on the fact that there has been no counter example to date, thus science is always changing. Nowadays, we are becoming smarter and are able to predict more and more if there is even a scientific liklihood of a counter example happening. But it is still true that nothing can be proven certain. I today have been trying to find out if there have been any scientific trials on persons who claim to be able to project at any time and be able to do RTZ validations in a controlled environment. I'll let you all know if I find anything Thanks for your responses.

[iLight]

Seriously im starting to laugh at this thread, How come noone sees that we cannot proof something that does not vibrate on our frequency? Does that mean radio is bullshit? and all the invisible waves around us are BS? Bunch of scientist who waste their lifes on declining that oobe's and other paranormal experiences are fake? Its a no, A force beyond scientist is controlling them. If we uncover our true potential. Than there will be no limits to our conscious. Science in past declined anti gravity existance, and today look! they prooved that anti gravity can be accomplished! LOL Good morning! Science and all that crap is based on theories. The Biggest scientist named "Einstein" said : Imagination is more than knowledge! LOL and why did he say that? Where are the Scientist? why the heck do you try to decline spiritual experiences? ofcourse paychecks must come from someone ! So here we go, a force that controls the world needs to keep its peeps in place, including me LOL Who gives a f*ck? you shall experience it once you die. Try to damn enjoy ur life, and not ruin others life's. Scientist are mortals so stop counting them as Gods. They are normal human beings who make profit on everything they can make $$ from. Look how much $$ was spend on global warming. Wheres the F*cking proof that its real? its been 50 years. People need to open their eyes, im starting to think that monkeys are even smarter than some of us. Look around your self, what do you think is real? and why the f*ck are you in this world? oh well, i really dont care what people will reply on my post. I dont give a F*ck. Death will teach you soon enough what reality is.

[Rainman]

I agree that we don't really know anything about reality, and if we do learn, it'll be after we die. But I wouldn't go as far as to actually bash science. As Mind pointed out, science is the reason we have so much useful technology. I agree with you that relying on science as a determiner of a reality is absurd, but science has done many good things for us if you think about it.

[iLight]

Science was brought with a good purpose, and human beings turned it into a weapon by creating weapons, atomic bombs and tons of other war sh!t. Imagine if we explore other dimensions,psychic abilities or see trough other frequency's what disaster would it bring? Even though we have this technology,a price has to be payed, Which is our damn life. Was that the purpose of science? wheres piece?freedom?and where the heck is reality? We face this world in a terrible way. Our consequences of daily use of chemicals kills us in time. Our brain is the Ultimate weapon, and people with power know that. Thats why we live in a world where materialism takes place.

[Rainman]

Excellent point. But also do not forget about the many good things science does for us. It is the nature of people in power to dominate other people and feel like they own something, so they abuse the knowledge that science gives us and they use it for violence. You're right, the discovering of extra-sensory abilities would be catastrophic. But don't forget about how many lives technology saves every day, even though it is simultaneously potentially destroying the world. Heh..

[maytodecember]

Thanks for posting. Personally, I'm not sure weather or not I believe in OBE's but wither way, I AGREE with you. There are some issues in life where it is important tp debate, but this is not one. If people don't believe FINE, if they do FINE.

[Xaqaria]

The difference for me is when you try to explain these things with spirituality. It may be how you feel it happens but its pure speculation one way or the other. The speculative side of the topic to me is OBE's. The empirical side of the topic is Remote Viewing. If you want to talk about remote viewing I'll listen but as soon as you start talking about white lights and crystals I no longer care what you have to say. There is evidence, but not of any "astral plane." That is speculation and story telling and I have no interest in it.

[Bad Wolf]

http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html. There's 53 articles on that site that provide evidence for near-death experiences, some of which occured while the person was brain dead. For those who say near-death experiences are just dreams, could you please explain how that's possible? Edit: Sorry, wrong thread.

[Rainman]

The difference for me is when you try to explain these things with spirituality. It may be how you feel it happens but its pure speculation one way or the other. The speculative side of the topic to me is OBE's. The empirical side of the topic is Remote Viewing. If you want to talk about remote viewing I'll listen but as soon as you start talking about white lights and crystals I no longer care what you have to say. There is evidence, but not of any "astral plane." That is speculation and story telling and I have no interest in it. Who said anything about the idea of OBE being "spiritual"? It is simply the concept of the conscious mind having the ability to function outside of the physical body, which has absolutely nothing to do with spirituality. There is no conclusive evidence of an astral plane, but there is no evidence of any kind that can prove that it does not exist, which has been my exact point throughout this entire thread, along with the fact that people will completely miss a point that's been made early on so that they have room for sarcastic and belittling remarks, which are completely pointless, and simultaneously you fail to present a compelling argument, because you still cannot prove that OBEs/Astral projection does NOT exist. Now certainly your instinct will be to reply saying that I cannot prove that it DOES exist...and you would be entirely correct, I cannot. But you also don't see me insulting your intelligence and waving OBE non-skepticism in your face do you? Hmm...

[thegnome54]

Who said anything about the idea of OBE being "spiritual"? It is simply the concept of the conscious mind having the ability to function outside of the physical body, which has absolutely nothing to do with spirituality. There is no conclusive evidence of an astral plane, but there is no evidence of any kind that can prove that it does not exist First of all, any idea which involved a non-physical component to the human body is 'spiritual', as far as I'm concerned. There is no evidence to suggest that we humans are anything but biological machines. Second of all, you can't prove that unicorns don't exist. You can only assume that they don't from utter lack of evidence. This is the concept that applies to OBEs. I'm not saying they're impossible, I'm just saying that there is no good evidence for them, so why jump to conclusions? I've brought this up before - the million dollar challenge. If you KNOW people who can read papers in another room while sleeping, for the love of all that is holy, hook them up with a cool million dollars instead of bragging about it on obscure online forums. The fact that you cannot prove anything for sure is not a good excuse for believing in things with no evidence. I could just as easily say "Unicorns exist, I've seen one!!! YOU CAN'T PROVE THEY DON'T!".

[Rainman]

A person spotting a unicorn vs a person having an OBE are different types of proof-systems, if you will. A random person could say "I have seen a unicorn" and they would have no way to back it up. They could describe what it looked like and nothing more. True, I cannot prove that he did not see a unicorn, but that's not reassuring to me, because the likelihood that I'll ever see one is extremely slim. OBEs on the otherhand can be experienced by anyone willing to try. People who are so certain that OBEs are just a form of lucid dreaming, are the same people who have never had, or even attempted to have an OBE. If they had, they would note that they are two entirely different experiences. However, consistent with Xaqaria's mentioning of remote viewing (which has been proven, don't ask me the details, google it), I am starting to form my own degree of skepticism toward the underlying concept of the OBE. I'm still working on it, but I'll let you guys know and you tell me what you think. I still believe they exist, but in an entirely different way than most people see them. More later.

[BohmaN]

I believe it's possible.

[SKA]

Rainman I agree with you a 1000% Some people expect Science to explain all of reality for them while actually Science, the way it is practised these days, is human's poor attempt to understand the un-understandable. The endless desire to explain up to the point people are rather full of shit than that they dare admit that something really is a mystery to them. Scientists have proclaimed themselves Gods and think they can DEFINE reality while they are really just theorising about it. How many times has Science "proved" and explained the cause of certain occurances only to find out later they were totally wrong? And then they say: " oh well we were wrong first, 'cause now we've figured out that it is like THIS instead" Makes you wonder about every new explanation of reality they come up with: How can you possibly take it serious when, with the knowledge of experience, you know that in a couple of years they turn out to be wrong again? And again. And again. People who can't admit that some things are mysterious blind themselves to the truth, whatever it may be. Still non of us have sofar been able to find any credible explanation for Dreams, The Psyche, Emotions, thoughts and all the abstracts of life. Some of us admit they just don't know, while others can't stand it and conjure up some weak explanation so they can just stop thinking about it and stop it from puzzling them. Me, I like being puzzled and the only thing I can rightfully say I've understood about Reality is that it is really poorly understood and I just don't know. Science has a very limited, narrow vision of Reality and everything they can't explain doesn't exist according to them. Rediculous: They just can't admit that most of existance is a great mystery that can't be revealed in a lab. About OOBE's: People wouldn't be practising it for SUCH a long time if there were no truth in it; if there were no satisfying results to be gained from it. Same for other "Questionable" spiritual practices such as Sorcery and Shamanism: Why would people be bewitching, killing and healing eachother with "Magic" if it really was impossible? Shamans and sourcerers can Kill, Disease, Injure and Cure/Heal people using Magic. Do you Sceptics really think that if it were all a big pile of untruthfull bullshit, shamans would be practising it for such a long time? The only thing that can PROVE reality to me is EXPERIENCE. I don't need Scientific proof wether or not Dreams and Lucid Dreams exist. What a pile of shit that is. I've had a Dream. there! Real enough. I've had a Lucid Dream. Done. Real enough. Save your Scientific babble, because Experience proves Reality, not a bunch of Statistics. Now can anyone link me to a couple of OOBE-tutorials and instructions?

[Kromoh]

I'm amused at seeing people thinkign science is bad. Science is like a gun. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Imagine the life of today without science. The computer you use t oaccess the internet and post on this forum, none of that would ever exist without ADVANCED science. Science CAN prove LDs and science CAN prove wha twe cannot see. That's wh yI suggest you to pay randi a visit: it's for th advancement of science.

[Kromoh]

SKA, that's the difference between science and faith. Science admits itself to be wrong, evolves and makes its theories better. Faith never changes: if your beliefs are wrong, yo uwill keep them for a lifetime. From both I choose science. Sciece is logical thinking, faith is rationalization.