Shared Dreaming Challenge- not what you think.

Hello everyone, believers and skeptic! Here is the idea. We can talk all day on the debate thread and that is fine, we can also stage fun experiments, but what can we do to look at the practical problems with the idea?


Please do not post here about if you do or do not believe in shared dreaming. No debate or skeptism is welcome here. That is because this thread has nothing at all to do with if Shared Dreams exist (I will simply move any comments about that to the debate thread for being off-topic). The idea I have here is that I will issue a couple challenges to everyone. These challenges are straight forward and simple. It is my opinion that if shared dreaming exists it would likely take certain skills to achieve it. We can talk for months about proof or experiments, but let's try working on some basic lucid dreaming skills that I feel would enhance the effort. Skeptics should join in and try the challenges if they want. I also welcome comment on other basic LD skills that we could all work on, that may help in the process. Skeptics, just use your imagination, like if you were writing sci-fi, and chime in ideas of which skills would be needed in your fantasy version of the real world.

Here are my first 2 challenges:
1) Some think meeting at a location would help. I challenge each of you to simply go to, or summon a pyramid in your LD. No, do not worry about meeting anyone. Just see if you are skilled enough to have a pyramid appear in your LD and go to it. No mystic aspect involved, simply prove to yourself that you can intend on going somewhere and then get there in a dream.

2) I challenge you all to clearly and with an audible voice (no just thinking it) proclaim very loudly in an LD "I am looking for someone!" Do not pick a certain person, just prove to yourself that you are a skilled enough LDer to intentionally say the phrase in a clear powerful voice.

Ultimate Challenge!: I challenge all LDers, skeptic included, to combine the two challenges. Go to, or create a pyramid. Stand on top of it and say in a loud voice (audible, not just thought) "I am looking for someone!"

Feel free to post a link to DJ if you pull it off. Feel free to comment on the idea and suggest other challenges that seem related to this. Please do not debate if Dream Sharing makes any sense. This is not a thread about Dream Sharing! It is just about developing real LD skills that may be helpful if such a thing did exist.

Good start, Sivason!

I hope lots of dreamers play, learn, and offer up new ideas here...

Im in right after the lucid competition is finished in a week or so.. :)

good idea man! :D

Thank you Sivason
I don’t Lucid dream and don’t want to. So I will incubate and intend. I will imagine doing it while awake and go to sleep repeating an affirmation. This is exciting. Thanx again Sivason.

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Originally Posted by debrajane

I don’t Lucid dream and don’t want to. So I will incubate and intend. I will imagine doing it while awake and go to sleep repeating an affirmation. This is exciting. Thanx again Sivason.

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That's like what I do. A difference is that my 'intend' is a simple statement of interest which I don't repeat or affirm. Then my 'subconscious' does something creative in response to that, and I feed the process by taking the time the next day to think about the resulting dream experience.

An obvious disadvantage of my approach is I don't overtly control what dreams I have. But that's also an advantage in that it gives the semi-collective/higher-self/subconscious mind more latitude to do interesting things.

I think one of the important prerequisites for shared dreaming, such as I refer to, is being able to let go of your sense of identity a little bit and let it move to a different place. I think the intimacy and vulnerability that this involves is a little scary, and probably should be.

Practice in active thinking during the day about things like feeling and identity helps also, because it makes you able to recognize and process what you're dealing with. Along with that, I think its a good idea to have a strong sense of integrity and what you value also, to avoid losing yourself to other influences that don't have your best interests at heart.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

That's like what I do. A difference is that my 'intend' is a simple statement of interest which I don't repeat or affirm. Then my 'subconscious' does something creative in response to that, and I feed the process by taking the time the next day to think about the resulting dream experience.

An obvious disadvantage of my approach is I don't overtly control what dreams I have. But that's also an advantage in that it gives the semi-collective/higher-self/subconscious mind more latitude to do interesting things.

I think one of the important prerequisites for shared dreaming, such as I refer to, is being able to let go of your sense of identity a little bit and let it move to a different place. I think the intimacy and vulnerability that this involves is a little scary, and probably should be.

Practice in active thinking during the day about things like feeling and identity helps also, because it makes you able to recognize and process what you're dealing with. Along with that, I think its a good idea to have a strong sense of integrity and what you value also, to avoid losing yourself to other influences that don't have your best interests at heart.

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Replace the word “dance” with “Share-Dream”

And plea like Mary Frances Crosby to old Grandpa Fred Astaire (Sivason hehehe):

Fred Astaire & Mary Frances Crosby - "Pick Yourself Up" - YouTube

(2:36) 430 views uploaded this year on Feb 23rd 2012

Sivason (or friends of Sivason) and advanced dreamer (dancers)

Oh, Argument thread for those who want to thrash things out is here:

http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/shared...debate-120211/


shadowofwind

Some of my best (and totally different) dreams happened when I tried to incubate and intend but got too sad and/or depressed and just gave-up, (had a fondle) and slept.

Debrajane,

The darkest and most joyful parts of my mind are very close together. Awareness of love, beauty and justice makes us happy, but then we see the contrast with who we are and what we have created and its hard not to get down about that.

I'm in shock that animals eat other animals, that people sacrifice each other and their selves in their quest for the things they seem to need to feel OK. Life to me is a nightmare that I never wake up from. I see some of the things happen to people and it seems something in me is pushed farther than it goes. And it seems there's little consolation. Show a tear in front of someone, a little of what you have experienced, and chances are good that they will try to protect themselves by running away from you. The face is a mirror, the truth is engraved on everyone's soul, and everyone runs around in a panic trying to avoid the reflections.

I realize I'm going off topic here, though maybe not so far. Shared dreaming isn't possible unless the door is open to share, and unless we can bear feeling the part of ourselves that is able to do that.

So I attempted my own challenges last night. I had an amazing LD! I did complete the first challenge and came so darn close to completing the combined challenge. I could have completed it but did not say the phrase in an audible voice. The LD had been going on for over 30 minutes, and there I was on top of a very vivid nice pyramid, when I thought "I am looking for someone!" It did not come out audible, and before I could try again my pesky brain responded "OH? Who are you looking for?" I fell for it and got distracted trying to remeber who I was looking for, totally forgetting I was just supposed to say the phrase out loud.
Here is the link to the LD. and it is very interesting. I hope it is not boring as it is over two pages long. http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/siva...allenge-37501/

The point I am getting from this, is that even fairly simple sounding tasks can be very hard. I think developing the ability to call out a specific phrase in an audible voice and getting to a specific place would be good starting points in our shared dreaming training.

As you note, Sivason, remembering is every bit as important as calling out that phrase ... you must have your waking-life memory with you in order to understand what it is that calling-out even means.

Even then, it's a bitch. I've been to the top of that "pyramid" many times (though it was never a pyramid), and shouted my dream lungs out, memory intact; only to get silence in response.

Though your steps are definitely the correct initiation into the process, even after you've mastered them, there is still the problem of contacting another dreamer, then knowing you contacted them, and, finally, understanding the meaning of that contact (i.e., who you met and what they said). I think Shadowofwind's post (just before yours) might hit that target a bit more soundly that even he is willing to admit...

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Originally Posted by Sageous

As you note, Sivason, remembering is every bit as important as calling out that phrase ... you must have your waking-life memory with you in order to understand what it is that calling-out even means.

Even then, it's a bitch. I've been to the top of that "pyramid" many times (though it was never a pyramid), and shouted my dream lungs out, memory intact; only to get silence in response.

Though your steps are definitely the correct initiation into the process, even after you've mastered them, there is still the problem of contacting another dreamer, then knowing you contacted them, and, finally, understanding the meaning of that contact (i.e., who you met and what they said). I think Shadowofwind's post (just before yours) might hit that target a bit more soundly that even he is willing to admit...

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Maybe you can suggest another basic challenge that you feel may helps us address those issues. Take your time, I am not sure what basic thing we can work on that may help, but if you can suggest something, I am sure we would all be willing to try it.

^^ No, no, you misunderstand, Sivason!

Your basic challenge is an excellent one, and forms a strong foundation for the "challenges" that will follow, once this one is licked. In fact, I wasn't going to post at all, but your note about remembering, coupled with Shadowofwind's note about subtle communication, somehow compelled me to amplify both points.

So I guess all I was really trying to say was that maybe the core of your challenges needs just one more piece: memory. I think remembering why you're shouting from the top of that pyramid is as important as actually doing it, and perhaps I hoped to suggest that that aspect get added in somehow. And, of course, I wanted to point out that this is just the beginning.

Sorry for interfering -- it wasn't my place, especially because you're already doing the right thing.

I gave myself similar dream goals to this a several months back, although I was looking for Nietzsche (my favorite philosopher). So, I wasn't trying to connect with an actual person to share a dream with, just cultivating the abilities to summon or find someone in a dream, transport myself to a specific person and/or place, and remember complex information and goals within the dream.

Here are the DJ entries where I achieved this:
Plucking the Sun from the Sky
Strange Conversations with Sharon
Meeting Nietzsche

Right now I am working on body transformations as my lucid goal, but as soon as I achieve this, I will refresh my skills in this area and try going to a pyramid. (I imagine these same skills will come in handy when its time for me to contact my dream guide again.)

After achieving these goals, what next steps do you recommend, Sivason?

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ No, no, you misunderstand, Sivason!

Your basic challenge is an excellent one, and forms a strong foundation for the "challenges" that will follow, once this one is licked. In fact, I wasn't going to post at all, but your note about remembering, coupled with Shadowofwind's note about subtle communication, somehow compelled me to amplify both points.

So I guess all I was really trying to say was that maybe the core of your challenges needs just one more piece: memory. I think remembering why you're shouting from the top of that pyramid is as important as actually doing it, and perhaps I hoped to suggest that that aspect get added in somehow. And, of course, I wanted to point out that this is just the beginning.

Sorry for interfering -- it wasn't my place, especially because you're already doing the right thing.

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LOL! No, no you misunderstand me! I was not even a hint offended or anything. I was honestly hoping you may help me come up with another basic challenge that would work on that. So, I guess the issue is bringing enough waking memory in the dream? That makes sense, maybe a new challenge could somehow be made to improve this aspect of our dreams. I was truely just hoping that you, as one of our most experienced dreamers, might have an idea how we could work on it. I guess we could stick to these two and later add another,. Do you think the old standard of remebering where you are sleeping and the time of the year (and maybe which year) or something of that nature would work?

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Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

I gave myself similar dream goals to this a several months back, although I was looking for Nietzsche (my favorite philosopher). So, I wasn't trying to connect with an actual person to share a dream with, just cultivating the abilities to summon or find someone in a dream, transport myself to a specific person and/or place, and remember complex information and goals within the dream.

Here are the DJ entries where I achieved this:
Plucking the Sun from the Sky
Strange Conversations with Sharon
Meeting Nietzsche

Right now I am working on body transformations as my lucid goal, but as soon as I achieve this, I will refresh my skills in this area and try going to a pyramid. (I imagine these same skills will come in handy when its time for me to contact my dream guide again.)

After achieving these goals, what next steps do you recommend, Sivason?

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You know you are one of my most advanced students, so I have little fear that you will run into much trouble on this path. I promise I will help you in detail after you have completed the full course. For now, just work on these items and really put your all into creating a clear audible dream voice. Try to make it so powerful and resonant that it is an amazing experience all on its own. Shake the dream world with the beauty of your voice! Try making mantra sounds that are really vibratory. Maybe just start with the classic OHM sound and I will teach you more later. The power of your voice vibrating out OHM should be almost a spiritual thing in itself. Very very powerful magic in the audible dream voice when used this way.

Of course Sageous may be on to a reasonable next step, trying to enhance your waking conciousness and memory. I think if you are not spending all your attention on other training at the moment, simply work on remembering exactly where you went to sleep is a reasonable thing to work on. Also you can try remembering the year and month.

Edit Note: I am refering to teaching you about making contact with dream entities such as dream guides. The steps I would recommend for shared dreaming with another human still need some thought. I have never had confirmed contact with another human, but I can teach you the dream guide/entity stuff.

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Originally Posted by sivason

LOL! No, no you misunderstand me! I was not even a hint offended or anything. I was honestly hoping you may help me come up with another basic challenge that would work on that. So, I guess the issue is bringing enough waking memory in the dream? That makes sense, maybe a new challenge could somehow be made to improve this aspect of our dreams. I was truely just hoping that you, as one of our most experienced dreamers, might have an idea how we could work on it. I guess we could stick to these two and later add another,. Do you think the old standard of remembering where you are sleeping and the time of the year (and maybe which year) or something of that nature would work?

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Okay, I'll play ... but stop me if I get in the way, or on your nerves.

I think your initial challenges are best left alone, but I do suggest that you add a memory-based challenge later. The "standard" of remembering where you were asleep is probably still a good choice, but ultimately your challenge will need to nurture the waking memory necessary to not only "know" that you're sleeping somewhere, but to be able to tap waking-life metaphor to help you recognize the presence of the person with whom you are attempting to share your dream. Since odds are excellent that your dream-sharing partner will not be showing up with business cards, or likely even in human form, you'll need to really dig into your own mind to establish both your partner's presence and a means for communication.

So I'd keep it simple now, just like you're doing, but feed in memory challenges later.

And if anyone is still reading: Sivason's challenges are also very helpful to building your LD'ing skills, so they have great value even if you never meet anyone else in your dreams!

Uhh. Sivason. I think this is really odd. You see I had an interesting dream on the 22nd and it sorta involved you. I got an email from you in the dream . I wasn't even trying to do this challenge. Basically my dream was about my laptop messing up and saying "Windows has died" and it takes me to the recovery screen and then another message comes up saying I have an email. I look at the email but I don't remember it all, just a small snippet of it. The part I truly remember is "Lucid dream reflection 3D8" But I believe the email was about your speculation on what dimension dreams take place...or something. I know this isn't in my DJ on dreamviews, I am just lazy with posting my journal entries on there. You probably didn't even have a dream about sending an email but even so I just thought it was a weird coincidence when I saw this thread and the dream I had.

Type OHM into google.
Then click images.
Compare your 3D8 to the image of ohm, then comment on weather your dream meant anything.

Love it.

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Originally Posted by TiredPhil

Type OHM into google.
Then click images.
Compare your 3D8 to the image of ohm, then comment on weather your dream meant anything.

Love it.

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Wow. It looks pretty similar. I think this dream did mean something, I don't know what exactly but this is no coincidence

My dreams have gone somewhat in another direction the last few days it seems. A few of my thoughts, for whatever they're worth....

Openness and sharing are good. But privacy and individuality are good too. Some people are comfortable having sex with any stranger they encounter. Other people are more careful about engaging in that degree of physical intimacy. I think that similar principles apply with shared dreaming. Sometimes that kind of connection is right, even with a former stranger. Sometimes a little bit of distance is better.

For some of the people who are more into the virtual reality or dream plane type dreaming, I don't think that interacting with someone else that way necessarily involves a high degree of intimacy. It might, but the contact may be more in the colorful moving picture realm, which is less personal. For me, the contact is more personal, I feel myself as the other person. I don't think that kind of contact is always healthy. Sometimes it is, but that depends on both people and on circumstances.

A centrally important thing to me in life is trustworthiness, or the absence of it. Does psychic development help make us better people? I think it depends on the circumstances. The most psychically accomplished people I've known have definitely not been the most trustworthy, likewise for dream life prowess. More is definitely not always better. Sometimes small fish go into deep water, sometimes they need to stay in the shallow water. We are all small fish.

I can't say what I'll feel like tomorrow or a week from now, but right now I feel that I want to be closest to a few friends and family, that I'm not comfortable sharing my mind completely with everyone. Maybe that's just common sense. Its definitely an area I've had some confusion in though.

Daredevilpwn, your icon looks a lot like an image of the structure of our interconnected identity that I saw in a dream about 23 years ago. Maybe I'll try to post a sketch in a few minutes.

Almost completed the challenge last night.
Takes me much longer to drop off to sleep as I get older.
The lucid is going out of lucid dreaming.
My choice really.
Will try again in a few mins when I go back to bed for the night.
Night all.
Phil

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Originally Posted by Daredevilpwn

Uhh. Sivason. I think this is really odd. You see I had an interesting dream on the 22nd and it sorta involved you. I got an email from you in the dream . I wasn't even trying to do this challenge. Basically my dream was about my laptop messing up and saying "Windows has died" and it takes me to the recovery screen and then another message comes up saying I have an email. I look at the email but I don't remember it all, just a small snippet of it. The part I truly remember is "Lucid dream reflection 3D8" But I believe the email was about your speculation on what dimension dreams take place...or something. I know this isn't in my DJ on dreamviews, I am just lazy with posting my journal entries on there. You probably didn't even have a dream about sending an email but even so I just thought it was a weird coincidence when I saw this thread and the dream I had.

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Wow! that is truely weird. The OHM symbol looks exactly like a backwards 3 and a D and view as a whole the bottom portion forms an 8. I had just talked about OHM and you have that dream. Too cool. And thank you Tiredphil for pointing it out! I have no idea what it means, but it is cool.

Ohm looks exactly as you say. Very similar to 3D

As for the 8
To speak the word Ohm you have to breath in then out.
What you take in is oxygen ( Amongst other things )

Atomic number of oxygen is ??????? 8

Ohm is not meant to be a sound with meaning. It is there to settle the mind.
Repeating a sound with no meaning gets your brain in a very settled state

The breath is not yours. It belongs to the body.
You do not breath, your body does it automatically.

Focusing on the breath gets you to observe your body, as if it is seperate from you.

If you can seperate from the body in your mind, this is called astral projection, or dreaming, etc

A bit deep this, so I will pause for now

Phil

"Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines."

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Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

"Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines."

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Silly statement
Shall we all wear the blinkers put on us by modern societies.
Explain please

Phil

^^ By the same token, should we all just convince ourselves that a thing happened because desired forms can be shaped from the coincidences at hand? Does exuberant rationalization now equal truth?

Explain please.

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Originally Posted by TiredPhil

The breath is not yours. It belongs to the body.
You do not breath, your body does it automatically.

Focusing on the breath gets you to observe your body, as if it is seperate from you.

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this is a bit off-topic, so ill make it short...all im saying is removing yourself from your body will not help.

the meditative practice of ohm is a way to become more sensitive to your body energy. This is the exact opposite of separating the mind and body.
Dissociation would probably serve as a better term for what you are talking about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

"Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines."

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"You won't get wise while the sleep's still in your eyes, no matter what your dreams may be."

I'm not sure how that's relevant, but I got mostly lost a few posts back.

Clarifying tip for electrical engineers: google the ohm symbol, its not what you expect.

Last year my dad told me that he had met a burned out stoner kind of guy who tried to tell him that he had a formula for everything, which he called awareness or something like that. The man's formula was 3 times infinity squared times infinity squared. My dad tried to tell him that this could be simplified to infinity to the fourth, and multiplying a power of infinity by a scalar doesn't do anything. I suggested to my dad to think of two x-squared's as representing two opposite faces of a cube, and three of those pairs as representing the whole cube. Replace x with infinity and it encompasses everything.

According to WakingNomad, the dream plane encompasses all possible and impossible things, or something to that effect, as I understood him. According to my intuition, the astral realm is some kind of aether of virtual/unreal worlds, and by being aware of those some spirit intelligences are able to make predictions about our worlds, which is where destinies and prophetic intuitions come from. 3D symbolizes three dimensions, and 8 is a sideways infinity. In Chinese 8 is also 'ba', pronounced like 'pa' which means father (even in Chinese), in this context the unmanifest father of the physical world. I'm just pulling this stuff out of my ass as I type. My point is that if you think like a muse, every sound or image has many metaphorically related meanings packed into it, and they're not just contrived. (In that regard I don't agree that the sound ohm isn't meant to have meaning. It may not be intended to have meaning for one person, but that doesn't hold true for everybody else.) You don't have to guess what meanings are intended and which aren't, you just take them all together and see if you learn anything. And the richness of meaning, or the poverty of it, if you're like us trying to wring meaning out of very little, isn't random. It is in some sense understood by the subconscious source of the sound or image. And all of these people, even including the stoner Tool frontman and my two year old son spelling 'mama' with two m's (sideways 3's!) and 'papa' with two 8's, are all by some torturous path connected through this source of inspiration.

While I'm at it, just to see if I can give some 'J'-type level headed reader an aneurysm....Before reading these posts I was just thinking again about how astral matter might be more active than physical matter not in the sense of kinetic energy, which is relative, but more in the sense of valence reactivity. And I added a new thought, that although velocity is relative, angular velocity is absolute, so astral activity might be more akin to that. One of the most important reactive elements is of course....Oxygen! And the common symbol for angular velocity is lower case omega, which looks like an upside down 'm' (for mama!) and even more like a sideways 3. And capital omega is the 'ohm' symbol familiar to engineers.

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Originally Posted by ShadowofWind

Last year my dad told me that he had met a burned out stoner kind of guy who tried to tell him that he had a formula for everything, which he called awareness or something like that. The man's formula was 3 times infinity squared times infinity squared. My dad tried to tell him that this could be simplified to infinity to the fourth, and multiplying a power of infinity by a scalar doesn't do anything. I suggested to my dad to think of two x-squared's as representing two opposite faces of a cube, and three of those pairs as representing the whole cube. Replace x with infinity and it encompasses everything.

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Sounds like it would form the energy path of a gyroscope...and I think it is amazing :)

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/art/ld/gyroscope.gif

and btw...your numerology is going to find its root in the hexagon...the shape of the carbon molecule... :) ....

also....fibonacci sequence....

http://www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/im...cci-spiral.gif


k....this is so off-topic...sorry...but its so awesome!!

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Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

this is a bit off-topic, so ill make it short...all im saying is removing yourself from your body will not help.

the meditative practice of ohm is a way to become more sensitive to your body energy. This is the exact opposite of separating the mind and body.
Dissociation would probably serve as a better term for what you are talking about.

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Could start a thread in f96 on this. It seems to me to be the central issue of confusion in all meditative practice, whether we're trying to transform the world by becoming more fully engaged with it, or to free ourselves by recognizing the world as an illusion and leaving it behind. I don't think its a matter of misinterpreting traditional teachings, I think the teachings themselves are confused about this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Could start a thread in f96 on this. It seems to me to be the central issue of confusion in all meditative practice, whether we're trying to transform the world by becoming more fully engaged with it, or to free ourselves by recognizing the world as an illusion and leaving it behind. I don't think its a matter of misinterpreting traditional teachings, I think the teachings themselves are confused about this.

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I think you're right.

Tempered exuberance is the key.
To release the power in you and me.
Interpreting a dream that is not clear
Will lead us all to strife, and fear

Hi everyone. good poetry.
Chipertainment, was yours a Hikue?

I have finally completed the combined challenge. It was last night during my 6th LD since I issued the challange, and I guess 10 days. Here is the link, 08/28/12 DILD Pyramid Completed - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I assume this means, that if I had been working with someone else, trying to share a dream, it would have taken 10 days for me to reach the agreed upon place and act in the agreed upon manner. So, if they had the same level of skill, maybe a 1 in ten chance each to fufill the criteria, and we both would have to (just assuming) be in that state at the same time. I am simplifiying the statistics, lets say a 1 in 100 chance that we would both meet the criteria at the same time. Of course I just worked 74 hours in 7 days, with only 1 day off. maybe in a setting where the dreamers did not have the stress of getting up and working hard, the success rate would go up.

naw, mine was some lyrics from the Tool song Lateralus... :)

they are my fav

You are a boss Sivason. Hopefully soon I will be able to do the same. I finally got a consistent schedule so I will begin attempting this challenge meself :)