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    Thread: Exploring Delta Sleep

    1. #26
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      One time I remember waking up from sleep in void of nothing. It seemed I was just awareness hovering in a blank space. Fully aware of what was happening I asked A question and that question was answered instantaneously through a hyper vivid symbol. It's gold shimmering appearance just floated in the black void all by its self and I knew it to be the answer I was looking for. :-).
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      "when you fall unconscious, what your mind expresses is a dream.
      When you are aware, what your mind expresses is creativity. It creates your life.
      When you are in a higher state of consciousness, it not only creates the life of whatever you want, but also on whom ever you want". -LifeBlissFoundation

    2. #27
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      ^^ That's an excellent example of a delta sleep moment, Dreamcatcher, thank you!

      Very impressive also that you had the sense to ask a question.

      Thought seems to flow with a different pace and content during delta, one that seems to defy language and most metaphor. I've often suspected that this might be because, when self-aware in delta we are "plugged" into our unconscious mind in a slightly different, perhaps more direct manner, if only because the standard plug for communication -- dreams -- has not yet been activated. Asking a question during delta -- especially one that relates directly to your Self, if that makes sense -- could lead to a very clear, direct response. I've found that the simple symbols, tones, and light-shows that often come back directly are unintelligible, but every now and then one shines through that just makes sense.

      Oh, and for those who say "Well of course it makes sense, because you wanted it to make sense," I say: Fine. Is there something wrong with you attaching meaning to a message your own mind just sent to you?

      If I may: When you asked, did you use specific words or project a feeling or image of the question?
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    3. #28
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      It was a very specific question. But asked in a commanding manner. As in show me what it is I seek this instant. The answer I received came in the form of a symbol a symbol that was very relevant to what was going on in my life at the time. The information contained in the symbol was not symbolic in its self. Instead It was a crystal clear explanation with out words. I did not question the validity of the symbol or the information that came along with it maybe because of its hyper real appearance. It was like looking at something you've seen every day but in micro scopic detail with out zooming in on the object 1000 times over. I wanted to test the symbol's vality but was too awe struck to focus and write the information down.
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      "when you fall unconscious, what your mind expresses is a dream.
      When you are aware, what your mind expresses is creativity. It creates your life.
      When you are in a higher state of consciousness, it not only creates the life of whatever you want, but also on whom ever you want". -LifeBlissFoundation

    4. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      When I first got interested in dreaming, back in the pre-internet, pre-PC, pre-video game, pre-cell phone dark ages of the 1970’s (what did we do back then?)....
      LSD

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      If anyone’s curious, particularly about: my experiences, how to recognize delta, how to form “dreams” in delta, or why you think I’m full of shit, let me know, and we can continue.
      For whatever its worth....You know how if you run a faucet really low, it drips, then a little higher it has a nice smooth flow, then a little higher it gets choppy with big droplets again, then higher it does something else? Obviously these distinct states are not designed in somehow. A lot of dynamics like this can be modeled fairly easily with differential equations, and if you change the magnitude of the forcing term, that's just what it does. I think that states of sleep are a lot like this. Researchers take a small sample of people, measure brain activity, and organize what they see into different categories of sleep. But not all people are tuned in exactly the same way. To push the faucet analogy further, depending on the shape of the faucet there may be no smooth flow period. But that doesn't mean that its dysfunctional somehow, that something essential isn't getting done.

      I go through phases lasting a few months or years where it seems to me that I'm conscious pretty much the entire time I'm asleep. I'm thinking while I'm asleep, even though the sensate processing and motor control stuff is shut off. And if there is an external event like a baby waking up, it seems as if I'm always in the middle of a thought while that is happening, not coming out of some kind of deep stupor. (I realize my impression of this can't be entirely reliable, since my measuring tool is also what I'm trying to measure.) For the last year or so I've been less aware while asleep though, maybe more like what most other people experience except with a larger number of vivid dreams. Anyway, my point is just that I think these sleep categories can tend to break down, just like how the lucid vs non-lucid distinction isn't very meaningful if you're not a person who dreams about being awake. This isn't mean to contradict anything you said.

      Some people have a passive, visually imaginative phase that they go through as they fall asleep. I don't have that. It takes me about an hour to fall asleep, during which time I'm completely awake then the transition is abrupt, there is no sound or picture imagination, and if there's a period when I'm not aware at all its after that. From what you describe that sounds like the delta phase. I never remember the initial instant of falling asleep, though I may be aware at other times when I'm not 'dreaming' with sounds or pictures or language-like thoughts. Other experiences like astral projection always occur when I'm transitioning towards waking up.
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    5. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      LSD



      For whatever its worth....You know how if you run a faucet really low, it drips, then a little higher it has a nice smooth flow, then a little higher it gets choppy with big droplets again, then higher it does something else? Obviously these distinct states are not designed in somehow. A lot of dynamics like this can be modeled fairly easily with differential equations, and if you change the magnitude of the forcing term, that's just what it does. I think that states of sleep are a lot like this. Researchers take a small sample of people, measure brain activity, and organize what they see into different categories of sleep. But not all people are tuned in exactly the same way. To push the faucet analogy further, depending on the shape of the faucet there may be no smooth flow period. But that doesn't mean that its dysfunctional somehow, that something essential isn't getting done.
      And, to stretch that analogy just a mite further: when you're using that water around the house, it has definite value as a trickle sometimes, as a coarse flow sometimes, and as as close to as smooth a flow as possible sometimes. Yes, the same water is coming out every time, but in very different potential forms (due to chosen force), and your needs and interests both define those forms and utilize them as appropriate. [This sounded deep and meaningful when I wrote it; not so much now ... so be kind if you respond!]

      I go through phases lasting a few months or years where it seems to me that I'm conscious pretty much the entire time I'm asleep. I'm thinking while I'm asleep, even though the sensate processing and motor control stuff is shut off. And if there is an external event like a baby waking up, it seems as if I'm always in the middle of a thought while that is happening, not coming out of some kind of deep stupor. (I realize my impression of this can't be entirely reliable, since my measuring tool is also what I'm trying to measure.) For the last year or so I've been less aware while asleep though, maybe more like what most other people experience except with a larger number of vivid dreams. Anyway, my point is just that I think these sleep categories can tend to break down, just like how the lucid vs non-lucid distinction isn't very meaningful if you're not a person who dreams about being awake. This isn't mean to contradict anything you said.
      Yes, though the averages seem to hold, these patterns definitely vary (i.e., my wife suffers/enjoys a form of narcolepsy where she is in REM sleep immediately, delta seems to come in the middle of her night, and her NREM transitional stages are nonexistent). But I believe that all sleepers must experience delta, as that is the period of real rest and revitalization. And, of course, by its nature delta would only be a meaningful stage if you make it meaningful. Otherwise it would simply pass unnoticed and subjectively very quickly.

      For what it's worth: Though I have no doubt that your conscious state during sleep is unusual, there is a chance that you actually only hear that baby crying during non-delta NREM and REM: your stupor is simply too deep during delta to be disturbed. Just a thought.

      Some people have a passive, visually imaginative phase that they go through as they fall asleep. I don't have that. It takes me about an hour to fall asleep, during which time I'm completely awake then the transition is abrupt, there is no sound or picture imagination, and if there's a period when I'm not aware at all its after that. From what you describe that sounds like the delta phase. I never remember the initial instant of falling asleep, though I may be aware at other times when I'm not 'dreaming' with sounds or pictures or language-like thoughts. Other experiences like astral projection always occur when I'm transitioning towards waking up.
      You and I fall asleep in exactly the same way. Interesting.

      That "passive, visually imaginative phase" is likely the early drifting between waking and sleep [most] people do before finally entering delta, but not delta itself. When measured, scientists found that that early phase produces alpha and beta waves rather than delta waves, so that "flow" hasn't become a drip yet. It's during this phase that a sleeper is wandering between consciousness and physiological sleep, and images can get interesting... So it is an NREM phase but it is not delta. Moments just before waking are indeed very similar, which would make them more conducive to AP (and LD'ing, for that matter), because the water flow has increased from the roughness of REM to the smoother flow of waking consciousness, but the memory of earlier flow is still strong. I think the water analogy may have run dry..

      I think the reason you may not remember the instant you fall asleep is that that is the time you are in delta -- and it might be a whole lot longer than an instant. Just another thought.

      [PS -- I just read over this post and determined it is all a jumble, but will post anyway.]
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    6. #31
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      Yes I don't know how long the initial oblivious stage is. And I agree it could be long. I think there have been times when I feel bored even in that stage though, and am vaguely aware of my surroundings.

      I don't think there are periods where I don't hear what's going on around me though, even if that hearing is processed subconsciously during the initial oblivious stage. It seems that if there is an unusual sound at any time while I'm asleep I always wake up immediately, based on the absence off experiences where someone talks to me or something happens and I miss the first couple seconds of it because I'm sleeping. I'm guessing this kind of awareness is common, its part of how we keep from getting killed by wild animals.

    7. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      And I agree it could be long. I think there have been times when I feel bored even in that stage though, and am vaguely aware of my surroundings.
      Yes, awareness during delta seems remarkably conducive to boredom, or at least disinterest. I've tended to find peace in such environments, though (in waking life, too).

      I don't think there are periods where I don't hear what's going on around me though, even if that hearing is processed subconsciously during the initial oblivious stage. It seems that if there is an unusual sound at any time while I'm asleep I always wake up immediately, based on the absence off experiences where someone talks to me or something happens and I miss the first couple seconds of it because I'm sleeping. I'm guessing this kind of awareness is common, its part of how we keep from getting killed by wild animals.
      Yes, our reticular system is definitely wired, still, to wake us up if we're disturbed (or we're starting to fall out of the tree, I suppose). I believe that the one small exception to that is delta, when, for a brief time, our attention is removed enough from the world that it takes substantial stimulation to wake us up. This could be why delta comes first, so you can be least attentive right after you were just awake and reasonably secure.

      There are always exceptions, though, including light sleepers and those whose waking consciousness tends to linger throughout sleep -- you might fall into both those categories.
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      Well, talk about amazing coincidences. I have just started a thread about this very same topic.
      I have been trying out Sivasons Dream Yoga for a couple of weeks, and started becoming aware, before dream states begin.
      The state I am experiencing looks like this.

      astral.jpg

      the image should be slightly blurred, and moves very slowly.
      Is this what you have experienced ?
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    9. #34
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      ^^ Not exactly, but I've definitely experienced similar. My closest image to that would be a thick, thick fog made of whisps of many shades of gray that swirls very slowly.

      It certainly appears to me that you might have tapped into delta... any plans for next time?
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    10. #35
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      I would like to ask few questions if you don't mind, when we go to sleep for about an hour or 40 minutes and we are getting a lucid dream what happens to Delta and REM?

      When we wake up in the morning and we go back to sleep in few minutes, do we simply skip Delta and are getting back to REM directly?

    11. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      ^^ Not exactly, but I've definitely experienced similar. My closest image to that would be a thick, thick fog made of whisps of many shades of gray that swirls very slowly.

      It certainly appears to me that you might have tapped into delta... any plans for next time?
      No plans as such, but last night I tried to reach the same state.
      I did not reach delta, but had an amazingly long, very clear dream with several DV member in.
      I can only remember saying, "we have done it"
      The rest of the dream just dissolved into nothingness.
      This is unusual for me, as if I remember dreams, I can keep them clear long enough to write them down.
      I had the full dream in memory when I woke, and was in a very good mood, as I thought I had made a breakthrough.
      Then as the seconds passed, the dream began to fade.
      I have just managed to get this down, and it has now all disappeared.
      Another attempt will be made some time today. I intend to sneak off to bed, and have another go.
      If caught, I can claim that I was trying out a new meditation technique, and fell asleep.
      Have you had any more experiences ?

    12. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by flowofmysoul View Post
      ...when we go to sleep for about an hour or 40 minutes and we are getting a lucid dream what happens to Delta and REM?
      Usually NREM (of which delta is a substantial part) lasts about 90 minutes in the beginning of a night's sleep. It doesn't need to last that long, but that is typical. As the night wears on, delta periods are shorter and shorter, therefore making REM periods closer and closer together. After several hours of sleep (usually more than 5), REM periods are so close together, and delta periods so short that they are pretty much nonexistent. Delta also tends to be absent during naps, because your body has simply not settled into a full night's sleep.

      So, if you are napping, or if you happened to have a short delta period, you could certainly have a LD within an hour of going to sleep. Also, if you are in any way narcoleptic, you could begin dreaming as soon as you fall asleep at night. There is no hard fast rule for all people in this.

      When we wake up in the morning and we go back to sleep in few minutes, do we simply skip Delta and are getting back to REM directly?
      Yes.
      Last edited by Sageous; 08-22-2013 at 02:34 PM.
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    13. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by TiredPhil View Post
      Have you had any more experiences ?
      Sure. In the name of expedience (and sheer laziness), I hope you won't mind if I just quote myself from post #8 of this thread:

      Let me give you three examples in the distinct categories into which they seem to fall (you or others here may find yourself familiar with some of this stuff, I think):

      First, there is a state I've often been in, during that long wait for REM, where I am alone in darkness, bodiless, yet with fading but still distant awareness of my physical form. Almost invariably in that state I will hear voices having quiet conversations -- voices I hear quite clearly, but I can never make out the words. At first this drove me nuts, but in time it offered me sort of an odd comfort (it may be the only noise I welcome during normal WILD dives).

      Next, another thing that regularly happens is a subtle shift to the thoughts that normally (even in dreams) flutter chaotically about my head like a thick swarm of tireless, annoying butterflies. In delta, thoughts are reduced to just a few, and seem to slow down and stretch out, becoming strangely tangible, as if entities unto themselves. It's difficult to describe, but I guess the best way to try is to say that perhaps these thoughts are the little brothers to the thoughts that become "reality" in dreams. Now the ironic bit: Clear and slow-moving as these thoughts may be, I can to this day remember absolutely no specifics about any of them -- as if they never happened... yet I can still feel their pressure and presence; as if their energy were more significant than their content.

      Then there are the rarer bits: On several occasions I held onto my self-awareness long enough to successfully do something during the pause. At first I tried the things I wanted to do in my dreams, like construct the places or situations I wanted to visit, but I quickly found that wasn’t happening -- each attempt left me with either more “nothing” or a loss of self-awareness and surrender to normal sleep and dream (though DILD usually followed, eventually). So, taking the hint from those quiet voices and tangible yet unheard thoughts, I decided to be subtle. Initially, I summoned geometric shapes in primary colors with some success, and even managed to visit a few strange places, though those places were always very dim, very gray, and oddly immersed in the wind of my body’s distant breath (I never did figure that one out!). More occurred, some of it certainly fun and novel, but suffice it to say that image-making in this state is a limited process indeed, perhaps due to the disconnect with the physical mechanisms that create dreams during REM. Oh, and pretty much all of my perceived OBE experiences started from this state -- I never thought much of that, but it might be worth mentioning here..

      Beyond these clear (ha, ha) examples are the precious few transcendental moments when I could command my self-awareness with enough gusto to try the big stuff -- like taking a metaphoric dive into the ocean of my unconscious to see how deep I could go, what or with whom I might be swimming with, and whether I could pour that ocean into a spiritual cup and take it home with me. Those were amazing dives, but I have trouble describing them both because my memory of where I went is fraught with things I cannot describe even to myself, much less others, and because I cannot honestly say whether these things truly happened during delta, or were perhaps given to me later in REM -- It’s all too vague, but suffice it to say that some very excellent stuff was initiated by my interest and conscious presence in delta.
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    14. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Usually NREM (of which delta is a substantial part) lasts about 90 minutes in the beginning of a night's sleep. It doesn't need to last that long, but that is typical. As the night wears on, delta periods are shorter and shorter, therefore making REM periods closer and closer together. After several hours of sleep (usually more than 5), REM periods are so close together, and delta periods so short that they are pretty much nonexistent. Delta also tends to be absent during naps, because your body has simply not settled into a full night's sleep.

      So, if you are napping, or if you happened to have a short delta period, you could certainly have a LD within an hour of going to sleep. Also, if you are in any way narcoleptic, you could begin dreaming as soon as you fall asleep at night. There is no hard fast rule for all people in this.



      Yes.
      I dont know if i am narcoleptic, but i can LD when i go for a quick nap, and enter my dream very fast.

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      ^^ Which is why it's an excellent idea to attempt LD's during naps.

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      I tried this going to sleep last night, and wow is it ever difficult. I was trying so hard to clear my mind of all thoughts, and it went something like this :

      "Ignore that... don't pay attention to it... don't think about anything, just think about what it's like to have a clear mind... but crap that's a thought as well! Must... not... think... about not thinking..."

      So at some point I decided to stop fighting it. I decided to take another approach, and went into a "passive mode" where I was no longer the central focus of a thought, but just a listener to what came up. And what I observed was a ton of incoherent chatter and random noise. As time passed it seemed to lessen in intensity, but unfortunately I ended up falling asleep at some point. This did keep me "awake" for a solid half hour or even longer than usual, so I did lose some sleep over it. Hopefully this gets easier (somewhat quickly) with practice.
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      Quote Originally Posted by blade5x View Post
      "Ignore that... don't pay attention to it... don't think about anything, just think about what it's like to have a clear mind... but crap that's a thought as well! Must... not... think... about not thinking..."
      Well. That pretty much describes most of my meditation efforts; very familiar indeed! And yet there comes a point when the thoughts finally do slow down to a manageable torrent; a point that for me is reached only with patience and a steady mind that manages somehow to corral the endless random thoughts. There are a few tricks, though: Ever try mantras or (mental) mandalas to ease your mind, or perhaps to help learn to allow the thoughts to pass by unattended?

      Or, perhaps you can just stop fighting it:

      So at some point I decided to stop fighting it. I decided to take another approach, and went into a "passive mode" where I was no longer the central focus of a thought, but just a listener to what came up. And what I observed was a ton of incoherent chatter and random noise. As time passed it seemed to lessen in intensity, but unfortunately I ended up falling asleep at some point. This did keep me "awake" for a solid half hour or even longer than usual, so I did lose some sleep over it. Hopefully this gets easier (somewhat quickly) with practice.
      That's an excellent idea, but it has one small risk: a passive mind tends to lose self-awareness, and lost self-awareness means you miss the lucidity boat, in delta or REM. Still, if you keep your wits about it, it could work with practice.

      I hope that when it gets easier, and when you have a moment or two in delta, you'll share the experience (and remind us how you got there)... it would be greatly appreciated!
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      Another thought on this:

      I did a little exploring this morning, and emerged with the realization that I hadn’t made very clear an important point about Blade5x's problem with clearing thoughts, and my problem with that torrent of untamed thoughts:

      One of the more attractive aspects of delta for me is that it is the one place I can go where that torrent of thoughts will not follow. By its very nature it has the potential of being a place defined by nothing, or at most a disorganized nothing so well described above by Tired Phil.

      So, if you are bothered by thoughts that just keep coming, random thoughts, contradictory thoughts, or thoughts that seem to argue with your very purpose as you attempt to reach a goal, as Blade5x illustrated above, delta offers a break from that mess.

      After I drifted this morning on the edge of that nothingness, it came to me that I should have repeated that this nothingness is one of my favorite salves of delta. So, Blade5x, should you reach delta, you too will enjoy a moment of “thoughtlessness,” and it will happen without trying.
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      Sageous, i wrote this topic - http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ll-asleep.html

      I am having two different ways of how i get lucid, in first one i know where is Delta Sleep, in second there is no delta sleep and no delay of dream, i get my dream before i fall asleep completely. What do you think is happening in second scenario?
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      Now I have tried dozens of different so called sound based meditations.
      So many out there on the internet that a person could easily get lost in the confusion.
      Then I searched Google for "Reaching delta sleep"
      By chance, the first video I came accross worked first time.
      It only took me a min' or so, and I was in another state of mind. Eyes were closed
      All external input ceased, and I was sat there in an inner mind state.
      I could just detect my breath. Hands felt like they were swolen to a great extent.
      The state lasted only ten mins' but the experience was new, and exciting.
      Please have a listen with headphones, and give your opinion.
      This is the only time I have ever been influenced by sound.
      I am off to have another go, just to validate that it was the sound that caused the experience.

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    21. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by flowofmysoul View Post
      Sageous, i wrote this topic - http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ll-asleep.html

      I am having two different ways of how i get lucid, in first one i know where is Delta Sleep, in second there is no delta sleep and no delay of dream, i get my dream before i fall asleep completely. What do you think is happening in second scenario?
      I'm not sure what causes that second scenario. My first thought was narcolepsy, but I read the OP on your thread, and see you've already tossed that out. Another guess might be that your sleep cycles don't folow the norm, which can and does happen: you may simply be starting REM earlier, and the NREM occurs at another time... this seems simplistic, but it could be the case. My only other guess, which I'm sure you've also explored, is that you are losing awareness for a time and simply emerging in REM on schedule, but feeling like the transition was instant.

      In other words, you're probably fine, just a bit different.

      That's all I have for now; I'll chime in on your thread if I come up with something else.

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      If I understand what flowofmysoul is talking about, I think this is common. My sister does this, and my friend who doesn't dream very lucidly does this. Probably a lot of other people do it I think, most people just don't talk about this sort of thing. They just relax and their imagination goes free, like a dream, then their mind lets go of the 'outward' control and they're asleep and dreaming. It doesn't work that way for me unless I've already been asleep for a long time and have just woken up though. Maybe you can see this in my ponderously analytical nature - that part of my mind doesn't let go very easily.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      I'm not sure what causes that second scenario. My first thought was narcolepsy, but I read the OP on your thread, and see you've already tossed that out. Another guess might be that your sleep cycles don't folow the norm, which can and does happen: you may simply be starting REM earlier, and the NREM occurs at another time... this seems simplistic, but it could be the case. My only other guess, which I'm sure you've also explored, is that you are losing awareness for a time and simply emerging in REM on schedule, but feeling like the transition was instant.

      In other words, you're probably fine, just a bit different.

      That's all I have for now; I'll chime in on your thread if I come up with something else.
      Thx for your reply. I already answered to a similar question regarding lost awareness in OP.

      I cant say that second scenario is better then first, I think going through all those cycles normally makes a whole different level of dreaming. I believe there are several types of dreams, around 5. The ones that I experience when I go to sleep without loosing lucidity are pretty simple, I am creator of my world, I can create anything I want, have fun and so on. There I can do all crazy stuff that comes to my mind, also there I can easily perform OBE/Astral and make some experiments.

      But since I am lucid dreaming for a long time, I prefer another dreams. Dreams where world is generated before I become aware, dreams where real laws of nature occur, laws of our world or laws of other worlds. Dreams where I can control only what I do and where I cannot manipulate what is going on.
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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      If I understand what flowofmysoul is talking about, I think this is common. My sister does this, and my friend who doesn't dream very lucidly does this. Probably a lot of other people do it I think, most people just don't talk about this sort of thing. They just relax and their imagination goes free, like a dream, then their mind lets go of the 'outward' control and they're asleep and dreaming. It doesn't work that way for me unless I've already been asleep for a long time and have just woken up though. Maybe you can see this in my ponderously analytical nature - that part of my mind doesn't let go very easily.
      In the beginning when I just started lucid dreaming I also could do this only when I just woke up. Some part of it is different and some is the same, I cannot say that process of going back to dream is absolutely identical to the process of going to dream from awake.

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      Oh I am grateful I found this, although somewhat late.

      I have been reading some B.A.Wallace books and he describes shamata without a sign or awareness of awareness as a way to fall asleep consciously. I also have tried visualizations in the heart chakra or just watching my thoughts which is more often recommended in other books. I like the first one because the focus is not to care about mind content but just the feling of being aware, which I found very relaxing and easy, but also easy to fall asleep.


      Usually I just fall asleep, other times I have some different quality of sleep, but I can't say that I am sure I had accomplished sleep yoga.

      One thing i can notice and find very interesting while falling asleep, specially if I try to keep my mind active, is a particular moment where thoughts get weird and some time after this I find I can't even think or remember what I was thinking before. My memory gets impaired and I seem to experience a sort of blankness. I feel like in the edge of falling asleep and loosing consciousness. I don' t know if this is something Sageous described as the pause. it's very interesting to explore these things. I really would like to learn to sleep consciously, and somehow I think it may be like my ultimate LD technique, so to speak, although this is not my only motivation.

      Thank you guys for this topic, I have to read it further and better and I am sure i will post again here. Now I will return to sleep, hopefully I can WILD after this one hour wbtb ( hope my iPad light doesn't hurt )
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