Originally Posted by JoannaB
Hmm, you've got a good point about the chimpanzees. The main explanation that I can think of is that homo sapiens is so conceited that we erroneously decided that we are the only creature given free will. That would be the main explanation for other creatures having the capacity to do evil deeds.
My problem with this is that the 'evil' in my nature does not for the most part seem to be a matter of free will. For instance I have a typical man's love of violence. I can suppress this, and to some extent I can redirect it in more constructive directions, but I can't just choose to not be that way, not within the scope of my life anyway. Some Christians would attribute this to original sin, and some non-Christians would believe that its entirely learned behavior. But its pretty clear to me that its a lot like the aggression of Chimpanzees and other animals, and that its not entirely chosen. Most higher animals thrive by preying on weaker animals, that's how life works.
A person could suppose that it works this way because of original sin, and I'm quite open to that as a possibility. But then the identity of those who originally chose to sin is shared in some sense by all of us. And that partially collective spirit, as I experience it, is where prophetic intuitions come from.
Originally Posted by JoannaB
Of course not all failures can be explained by free will, for example natural disasters how to recognize those with an all loving God. One possible explanation is that if we were not challenged enough, could we truly say that we exercised free will? If we lived in a garden of Eden with all that we ever wanted right there, could we grow into our full potentials? We learn through our mistakes, through making tough choices in situations full of shades of grey where at times we are limited to choosing the least of all evils rather than a truely good outcome. But if the good outcome were always possible and obvious, could we truely say that we made a choice and reached our highest potential?
This also seems possible to me, that the natural order is for the most part the best way it can work.
Originally Posted by JoannaB
In that way even an all loving God would not proclude bad things happening to good people. Even though it is hard for us to understand, because we do not know everything, but it may be that the worst thing happen because we need them to happen in order for us to become wiser and better and stronger, in order for us to make the moral choices without which we would not really have free will.
I think this only makes sense if violence is an essential part of life, or if we already screwed up before the bad things started to happen. I don't plan to teach my children about the importance of parental love by abandoning them at the mall.
Whether people deserve better than what they get or not, I can't judge. But I think that some people do, because personal relationships are real, which means that people can help or hurt other people.
Originally Posted by JoannaB
And I do not believe God causes natural disasters, but rather he created a world in which natural disasters were possible for our edification.
Bringing this back to "beyond dreaming" then, if you're interested enough to wade through it.....Following the dream I had during a nap about three hours before this happened (US Airways Flight 1549 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), as I described it in an e-mail to my mom and siblings shortly after I woke up. (Time zone is an hour west of US Eastern.) I've described this before here though I don't know if I posted it in its original form.
dream
Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:11 PM
From:
[name and e-mail deleted, trying to protect myself from spam and nosy employers]
To:
[family's e-mail addresses deleted]
I realize other people's dreams are usually boring and meaningless. I thought I'd send this one along anyway, since its kind of weird. Read it if you want to.
Generally I find that every smallest detail in a dream has some clear meaning, and I can tell what it is, but this one I have no idea. Actually its four dreams, which are related.
1. I'm in a windowless building or basement-like area that is stone or some other hard material. It has two levels, separated by a few steps and a low wall. I startle some kind of small, furry animal. There is water on the wall, the steps, and the lower floor, which I start wiping up. I assume I must have knocked over a cup of pop or something. Mom thinks it was sprayed by the startled animal. I say there's no way an animal that small could produce that much fluid, which doesn't have a strong smell. Mom still thinks its from the animal. ('Mom' is not necessarily mom, just a mom-like person or principle.)
2. I'm singing the ahh-ahh-ahh part of 'child in time', for enjoyment since I could only hope to hit those notes well when I'm asleep.
3. I'm listening to several songs, apparently that I have composed, which appear to be hymns of praise to the small furry animal. (One composition is clearly a modification of 'stranglehold'.) The only lyrics to any of the songs are 'leo-leo-leo'.
4. I am sitting next to a building watching someone repeatedly throw something like a shotput. It clangs against something metallic. I like the sound, I pick the ball up and smack it against another metallic contraption that is set into the side of the building, that has parts that vaguely resemble a cluster of bells. This starts an increasingly loud resonance, sustained by some kind of positive feedback. One of the 'bell' parts splits in half.
Now there is even a louder bell-like noise, and a low-ridge behind the building starts to swell and break, as if there's magma pushing up in it. I start to run, then intend to first to go to another building adjacent to the same courtyard and retrieve my child, even though there's apparently no hope of having time to do that. The nursery is the same building in which I startled the cat-like creature.
After waking I feel the line from Ecclesiates about the golden bowl being broken and the pitcher by the well being shattered.
In part 4, the reason I "like the sound", is it reminds me of a hammer hitting a skull. (As a side note, someone hit my skull with a hammer once. The sound didn't seem all that cool at the time.) To me the small Ted Nugent-like furry animal represents aggressive malice, and also the positive spirit of courage that it isn't very much different from. To me this is the main part of the dream.
My point in relation to this discussion is that bad things don't just randomly happen, there is providence involved, and it is somehow intimately connected to our own messed up desires, though there is a higher, unifying intelligence involved also. If you don't find my hammer-on-skull example persuasive, I can private message other more disturbing anecdotes.
I think that this type of dream isn't best viewed as a premonition even when the image in it very closely matches the event that follows it. Its more of a "synchronous" event, like how Jung described but with an undeniable supernatural component, and even though its not exactly synchronous by a wall clock. The main reason the dream preceeds the event isn't to predict the event, its because its impractical or unnecessary for them both to happen at exactly the same time. I think that what I've been calling dream telepathy is like this also, its more of a matter of synchronicity than a matter of sending a message.
Restating my initial point, when something supernatural happens generally doesn't make sense to interpret it as the work of a perfectly benevolent God. Can you see why if I were to start interpreting my dreams in that manner, it would have the potential to twist into something really sick? The muse is susceptible to my own hubris and power lust. And yet, its clearly not "me" who is making the dreams, and it is not an "evil spirit" either. Looking at other people's "prophecies", their intuitions seem to me to be a lot like mine in that regard.
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