Sleep Consciousness

[Howie]

I have struggled with this since my first experience a few years back. trying to explain it has only led to debates about levels of lucidity. I have finally conjured up something in my mind that makes some sense. I would like to here your opinions. Perhaps we are too caught up in attaching dreaming to all sleeping experiences. I have had past experiences to which I had full consciousness. When I say (full consciousness) by this I mean that I feel as though my mind is every bit in a conscious state as it is right now...as I type. Having said that, could this be a possibility? During these several experiences I was in a state where I performed RC and there was NO distinguishable variance to that of waking life. During the times where there was a dream sign, I.E., someone who is deceased. I was completely aware that it was not real. This is where the confusion always comes in > I have no lucid dreaming capabilities. It is real life in my sleep. Now everyone says -- (you should have god like powers if you are completely lucid) I know where they are coming form. I have had that. I know what a full blown lucid dream is!! So I have come to a few conclusions: In a lucid dream or a regular dream we and our conscious mind are intertwined wit hour subconscious reality. This giving us the obvious effects we have of surrelaism in dreams. In the state of awareness I am explaining I am in part mingling with my subconscious, hence giving me the "scene" But I am for the most part in my conscious mind. Therefore I am not establishing a level of lucidity it is a level of two sides on interactions between our conscious and subconscious, dreaming mind. In some cases, such as a normal dream > your subconscious is in the most control. During a lucid dream our consciousness is aware and mingling with that of the subconscious. ---Depending on the level of control from either side, comes our often question level of lucidity. The more subconscious the less lucid and visa versa. So the state I attempt to explain is almost entirely conscious, yet I am asleep. This explaining why no dream like manners are present during the experience. Thanks anyone who read this. I don't know if it makes any sense. I sure would like feedback if anyone wants to go there.

[Xetrov]

I don't think you can explain those dreams by stating that you were entirely conscious there, as much as in real life. Because if that happens there should be no barrier to dream manipulation, at least, normally. Maybe for you somehow there exists some barrier there that prevents dream control? For one thing, a lot of what happens during a (lucid)dream depends on your expectations. After the 1st time this happened (maybe by accident) you might have expected it to happen again? For me personally, I have had lucid dreams in which I was as consciou as in real life and I also had control there. Just some thoughts... I do hope I understood your problem right though ...

[Howie]

I don't think you can explain those dreams by stating that you were entirely conscious there, as much as in real life. Because if that happens there should be no barrier to dream manipulation, at least, normally. Maybe for you somehow there exists some barrier there that prevents dream control? For one thing, a lot of what happens during a (lucid)dream depends on your expectations. After the 1st time this happened (maybe by accident) you might have expected it to happen again? For me personally, I have had lucid dreams in which I was as consciou as in real life and I also had control there. Just some thoughts... I do hope I understood your problem right though ...[/b] I have had lucid dreams in which I was as consciou as in real life and I also had control there.[/b] As have I. And still do. These have only been rare occasions. Four to be factual. Our mind when we our in a dream thinks that it is real. Our brain does not know the difference. When we become lucid we now have the ability to differentiate between the two. And I would not be entirely conscious.. If I were entirely conscious I would be awake. Mostly conscious.

[Xetrov]

If I were entirely conscious I would be awake. Mostly conscious.[/color] [/b] Yes ofcourse that is true. I meant it more as in, being fully aware that you are dreaming. But still what about my suggestion that it could be caused by expectation? Do you feel that is not the case (and why)?

[Howie]

QUOTE(Xetrov @ Dec 19 2006, 01:26 PM) * Yes ofcourse that is true. I meant it more as in, being fully aware that you are dreaming. But still what about my suggestion that it could be caused by expectation? Do you feel that is not the case (and why)?[/quote] Even if it were an expectation, when the actual experience is happening, what would explain the level of consciousness but the lack of dream content? Any surrealism. Am I misunderstanding your context of expectation? Thanks BTW. thumbup.gif

[Xetrov]

What I mean is; the first time, it might have happened by accident (a random occurance), and later on, when the same conditions emerge again, you (consciously or perhaps more so, subconsciously) expect the same outcome of these conditions.

[ExoByte]

This actually brings forth an idea I've tinkered with. What if the only reason we are bound by physical laws, is because our Conscious mind is in control? In lucid dreaming or Conscious and Subconscious mind combine giving us the abilities to do whatever we want. If the subconscious stayed the subconscious in a Dream, how would it be any different then reality? What if we were to achieve a merge of the Conscious and Subconscious mind in the physical world? I understand completely what you mean.

[The Cusp]

Sounds like it could be Hypnagogic State. Somewhere in between conciousness and sleep, you enter the hypnagogic state, where you can see images, dream scenes, hear voices, maybe even feel stuff touching you. I've heard the hypnagogic state likened to schizphrenia. You can stay concious, but dont have the controll or stability of a dream. Random and chaotic imagery.

[ExoByte]

Thats not what hes saying at all. Hes saying hes in a dream, knows hes in a dream, is fully aware its a dream, its vivid realisitic and he has full awareness, but it is so utterly real the signs are minimal and he has no "Lucid Powers" despite being completely aware.

[dablitzballer]

Originally posted by ExoByte This actually brings forth an idea I've tinkered with. What if the only reason we are bound by physical laws, is because our Conscious mind is in control? In lucid dreaming or Conscious and Subconscious mind combine giving us the abilities to do whatever we want. If the subconscious stayed the subconscious in a Dream, how would it be any different then reality? What if we were to achieve a merge of the Conscious and Subconscious mind in the physical world? I understand completely what you mean. ive thought of ur last part before and the idea of subcounciousness staying the way it is in a dream and thus creating reality-like restrictions sounds very reasonable

[Howie]

This actually brings forth an idea I've tinkered with. What if the only reason we are bound by physical laws, is because our Conscious mind is in control? In lucid dreaming or Conscious and Subconscious mind combine giving us the abilities to do whatever we want. If the subconscious stayed the subconscious in a Dream, how would it be any different then reality? What if we were to achieve a merge of the Conscious and Subconscious mind in the physical world? I understand completely what you mean. [/b] DUDE. I got goosebumps. When I read your post. I knew someone finally realized what the hell I am talking about. You worded it nicely. Thank you. When you attempt to explain something to no avail you begin to question yourself. So I am glad my shortcomings fall in my lack to convey the experience. If the subconscious stayed the subconscious in a Dream, how would it be any different then reality? [/b] Thats not what hes saying at all. Hes saying hes in a dream, knows hes in a dream, is fully aware its a dream, its vivid realisitic and he has full awareness, but it is so utterly real the signs are minimal and he has no "Lucid Powers" despite being completely aware.[/b]

[blade5x]

If the subconscience merges with the conscience during our "awake reality", then we are defined as insane. We'd see things that aren't really there. Maybe they are there, but no one else can see them because they are experiencing their "mostly conscience" reality. The people who have dillusions, hear voices coming out of nowhere - that's pretty much what would happen if our subconscience merged with our conscience far enough.

[Howie]

If the subconscience merges with the conscience during our "awake reality", then we are defined as insane. We'd see things that aren't really there. Maybe they are there, but no one else can see them because they are experiencing their "mostly conscience" reality. The people who have dillusions, hear voices coming out of nowhere - that's pretty much what would happen if our subconscience merged with our conscience far enough. [/b] Then if that was the case a lucid dream would be insanity. Which it would be if you were also physically awake and not just awake in your dream and could not separate the two. What do you think meditation is? Yoga or inspiration, getting in a zone. These are all examples of our minds getting vibes from and tapping into the subconscious.

[STsung]

thats not what hes saying at all. Hes saying hes in a dream, knows hes in a dream, is fully aware its a dream, its vivid realisitic and he has full awareness, but it is so utterly real the signs are minimal and he has no "Lucid Powers" despite being completely aware.[/b] I always counted this as the lowest "level" of lucidity? actually this state for me was always on the edge of being lucid or not (before coming to these forums lucidity for me was an equivalent of a controlled dream). how to make myself clear little bit? I mean I do remember most dreams and I know they are dreams when I have them and I watch them...without being able to do anything except think. still thinking is a priviledge and it is the only thing which makes me still think that I'm in a dream...because somehow I know it.... Is it the state you are describing? for me it feels like my consciousness would be looking at what my subconsciousness is doing while I sleep (or sometimes I have the feeling it is judging the other part of me)...the problem is that all these dreams are so realistic and without any "dream/surrealistic" things. but unlikely situations do happen...

[Howie]

I always counted this as the lowest "level" of lucidity? actually this state for me was always on the edge of being lucid or not (before coming to these forums lucidity for me was an equivalent of a controlled dream). how to make myself clear little bit? I mean I do remember most dreams and I know they are dreams when I have them and I watch them...without being able to do anything except think. still thinking is a priviledge and it is the only thing which makes me still think that I'm in a dream...because somehow I know it.... Is it the state you are describing? for me it feels like my consciousness would be looking at what my subconsciousness is doing while I sleep (or sometimes I have the feeling it is judging the other part of me)...the problem is that all these dreams are so realistic and without any "dream/surrealistic" things. [/b] This I believe is where there is a difference. I mean I do remember most dreams and I know they are dreams when I have them and I watch them...without being able to do anything except think[/b] I am a part of the dream. I am in the dream. But I am bound by physics, as I am when I am awake...which I am then too. The subconscious is playing the most minimal of roles. Only enough to provide the scene.

[STsung]

sorry I didn't explain myself completely. actually I AM in the dream and I AM in my body. but I have a feeling that I watch what is going around. not what "myself" is really watching... difficult to say...it's late for me. ex. I know that I'm in a dream and I do realize that I'm aware of it. the first think I do is look around. but you know my head actually does not move (I mean the head of me in the dream). But I can watch the dream more fully then if I would be in a reality. everything seems perfect to reality...but there is the feeling that I see more. It's like that I would see in more detail or something. but it's just a feeling. I don't really know how to describe it and it is somewhat personal to me. you can imagine the feeling like if there would be 2 "mes" at once in the body. one that is in the dream, reacts, speaks, moves whatever. and the other one which thinks and "sees". .....grr..can't explain..

[Aneas]

I have struggled with this since my first experience a few years back. trying to explain it has only led to debates about levels of lucidity. I have finally conjured up something in my mind that makes some sense. I would like to here your opinions. Perhaps we are too caught up in attaching dreaming to all sleeping experiences. I have had past experiences to which I had full consciousness. When I say (full consciousness) by this I mean that I feel as though my mind is every bit in a conscious state as it is right now...as I type. Having said that, could this be a possibility? During these several experiences I was in a state where I performed RC and there was NO distinguishable variance to that of waking life. During the times where there was a dream sign, I.E., someone who is deceased. I was completely aware that it was not real. This is where the confusion always comes in > I have no lucid dreaming capabilities. It is real life in my sleep. Now everyone says -- (you should have god like powers if you are completely lucid) I know where they are coming form. I have had that. I know what a full blown lucid dream is!! So I have come to a few conclusions: In a lucid dream or a regular dream we and our conscious mind are intertwined wit hour subconscious reality. This giving us the obvious effects we have of surrelaism in dreams. In the state of awareness I am explaining I am in part mingling with my subconscious, hence giving me the "scene" But I am for the most part in my conscious mind. Therefore I am not establishing a level of lucidity it is a level of two sides on interactions between our conscious and subconscious, dreaming mind. In some cases, such as a normal dream > your subconscious is in the most control. During a lucid dream our consciousness is aware and mingling with that of the subconscious. ---Depending on the level of control from either side, comes our often question level of lucidity. The more subconscious the less lucid and visa versa. So the state I attempt to explain is almost entirely conscious, yet I am asleep. This explaining why no dream like manners are present during the experience. Thanks anyone who read this. I don't know if it makes any sense. I sure would like feedback if anyone wants to go there. [/b] Welcome to my world, Howetzer. What you describe is what it is like for me always, with the exception that it is also an LD awareness. What you experience is what I mean when I say that you become the dreamer and the dream. It is a level of complete awareness. You simply close you eyes in this world and awaken in the dreamworld. There is no need for dreamsigns or a need to induce the ld. It is simply a matter of the "feel" of the awakening. It is a merging of conscious and subconscious, an intimate union of the Self. The realization of the connectivity of the dream allows for a fluidity that is lessened in the attempt to define it. It brings about a greater conception of our perception of the waking world, and through experience allows you to dissolve the illusion of self as defined by the current physical state of being. It is a stripping away of the ego, of learned behavior, which leaves only an uncharted world of self-discovery and realization, a joyful rememberance.

[Howie]

Welcome to my world, Howetzer. What you describe is what it is like for me always, with the exception that it is also an LD awareness. What you experience is what I mean when I say that you become the dreamer and the dream. It is a level of complete awareness. You simply close you eyes in this world and awaken in the dreamworld. There is no need for dreamsigns or a need to induce the ld. It is simply a matter of the "feel" of the awakening. It is a merging of conscious and subconscious, an intimate union of the Self. The realization of the connectivity of the dream allows for a fluidity that is lessened in the attempt to define it. It brings about a greater conception of our perception of the waking world, and through experience allows you to dissolve the illusion of self as defined by the current physical state of being. It is a stripping away of the ego, of learned behavior, which leaves only an uncharted world of self-discovery and realization, a joyful rememberance. [/b] Aneas Aneas Aneas. Thanks you. The more commentary that has been shared in these past few posts have shed more light on this experience than I ever thought. I am realizing by the words said there is a true understanding too. With that I hope through the several examples that others may be able to relate. "WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD" Intended pun? Inside and outside of our dreams. This has really caught my attention = It brings about a greater conception of our perception of the waking world, and through experience allows you to dissolve the illusion of self as defined by the current physical state of being. It is a stripping away of the ego[/b] There is certainly no irony here. For the past year and 1/2 I have studied exactly this. I have countless articles and sites, CD's and books. Liberating yourself form your ego. With these practices it is more easily understood that I have had these experiences. To name a couple, if any one is interested. "Awareness" The Perils and Opportunities of Reality, by Anthony de Mello This is a book that is IN YOUR FACE. It may not go over well for many. Not for the week stomached. "A New Earth" By Echhart Tolle Some what repetitive if you get the meaning at first. He just mostly reiterates the same concept in many forms. Which can be helpful. "Through the open door" The vastness of our true being This I picked up at the library in CD format. Good. There is also the Power of Know. I don't recall the author.