Spirits.

[Think0808]

I'd like to start a thread about spirits, and how they impact our dreams and our worlds. I have lots of ideas regarding spirits, and energy, and the balance of the universe. What kind of role do you think spirits play in our lives?

[saxonharp]

Somone already beat you to it: http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/s...ess-awareness/

[Keiju]

what do you mean by spirits o.O are we not spirits?

[Think0808]

I don't know that guy seems like a scam artist to me, but I didn't see anything on there about spirits, and this is a dreamers forum so I'll tell you my only verifiable encounter with a spirit in my dreams. When I was 14 my grandfather died and I was very upset. I held his hand as he was unplugged in the hospital, and I could not bare to look at him at the funeral because it was not natural. This is after a tramatic point in my life already that he passes. That night I went to sleep and I drempt of nothing but emptiness, full of light and there was my grandfather in the suit he was burried in. All he said is "It's alright". Thats all he needed to say, I woke up and everything was fine, my sadness has left and I miss him but I know that it is alright. Bedside visit? Yes.

[Keiju]

yes it is a dreamers forum, but we are beyond dreaming :p beautiful story btw, i had something similar, nothing to do with death of a relative but i was looking for direction and guidance since i felt lost for a while, then i had a lucid dream where 2 people showed up next to my bed, they told me their names and said "we are behind you 100% in everything you do", unbelievably comforting, they deffinitely felt like guides.. spirit guides if you want but i think spirits can be in many forms, and we are one form of the spirit =]

[saxonharp]

I don't know that guy seems like a scam artist to me, but I didn't see anything on there about spirits, and this is a dreamers forum so I'll tell you my only verifiable encounter with a spirit in my dreams. When I was 14 my grandfather died and I was very upset. I held his hand as he was unplugged in the hospital, and I could not bare to look at him at the funeral because it was not natural. This is after a tramatic point in my life already that he passes. That night I went to sleep and I drempt of nothing but emptiness, full of light and there was my grandfather in the suit he was burried in. All he said is "It's alright". Thats all he needed to say, I woke up and everything was fine, my sadness has left and I miss him but I know that it is alright. Bedside visit? Yes. Not so much him as his wife, Erin. She's a medium and psychic and most of her forums and all of her blog are spiritually based and afford space for a myriad of views and ideas. And besides, somebody's only a scam artist if you actually buy something from them. Otherwise they're just charismatic (possibly cult-producing) individuals.

[Think0808]

I think spirits can invade our dreams for good and bad reasons. I think that holy spirits can give us visions and information in dreams. I think that lost spirits can contact you in various ways. (I'll JD this dream later) I just know that throughout my life I have been visited by many lost spirits, because they never had any intention of hurting me in my dreams, and I could feel there fear of talking to me. Has anyone ever TRIED to contact a spirit while lucidly dreaming ? I would like to try any advice?

[saxonharp]

I think spirits can invade our dreams for good and bad reasons. I think that holy spirits can give us visions and information in dreams. I think that lost spirits can contact you in various ways. (I'll JD this dream later) I just know that throughout my life I have been visited by many lost spirits, because they never had any intention of hurting me in my dreams, and I could feel there fear of talking to me. Has anyone ever TRIED to contact a spirit while lucidly dreaming ? I would like to try any advice? I've been doing that quite a bit within the last few months. It's called "Psychopompic Dreaming". Here's a particularly vivid example and is the first experience I had as a Psychopomp. I started the dream lucid, but somewhere in middle got so wrapped up in it that I lost lucidity and actually changed gender. In the begining of the dream, I am driving with a group of friends and we are going to a Bed & Breakfast. In the Dreamtime, I go to this B&B often as a place to help deceased people continue their journey and cross over. The Inn Keeper is an older lady who knows me and is always very hospitable (guess she's got to be if she was going to make any money with a B&B right?) Any way, we get to the B&B and my friends refuse to get out of the car. Well, that's their choice, so be it. I walk through the garden and am met by the Inn Keeper who tells me that my room is ready and that there are some new spirits here. I thank her and go up to my room. Now remember, this is my first reccollection of a psychopompic dream, and yet I recognize the B&B, the Inn Keeper and both her role and reason for this place and the fact that I've been here many times before and that this is really just "old hat". I put my bag down on the bed and immediately recognize that there is the spirit of a young girl - probably 8-9 years old - sitting in the rocking chair in the corner of the room. She's got long dark hair, is dressed in a light, flower-print nightgown and holding a stuffed, flop-eared bunny with pink nose and pink satin inside the ears. I address her and ask her who she is. She is shy and doesn't want to talk. I press her, continuing to ask her name and does she know she's dead. As I begin to walk towards her she disappears. I decide to head out to the garden a take a walk around. Once out in the garden, I am quickly accosted by a very hostile and angry spirit. He appears to be a white male in his mid to late forties. He's wearing a blue and white checked shirt, dark jeans and dark work boots. His coarse, medium-cropped hair is salt & pepper black and grey and his hands are thick and callused with thick, stubby fingers and tattered and dirty fingernails. He grabs me by the shirt and begins to pull me towards himself (at this point I am no longer lucid and have become a woman). I understand that he is going to try to hurt me. I also understand that he is/was a rapist. I ask him how he died. He looks away and stops pulling me, though he doesn't let me go. I'm about two inches from his face. I can feel his hot, moist breath on my face and smell how sour it is. I can see the beads of sweat on his forehead and the streaks it makes in the dust and dirt on his face as it rolls down his stubbly cheeks. I keep asking him how he died. Was it violent? Was it an accident? Does he know he's dead? I get a vision of a lot of blood. I ask him if he died from a hemmorage. At this point, he lets me go and he hangs his head a little. He doesn't want to talk or tell me anything, but he's not trying to hurt me anymore either. I keep pressing: "How did you die? What happened to you?" I look at him again and he's not a middle-aged man anymore. He's a scared 18 year-old kid. I understand as I look at him that he raped a girl when he was 18 and that an older male relative of hers (Father, uncle, older brother, not really sure) found him and castrated him and left him to die. I tell him it's time to go Home. I help him up and begin to walk with him to the back of the garden. I'm not sure what's supposed to happen next, but the Inn Keeper comes from behind me and says, "Here, let me help." She waves what looks like a twig or a stick from behind me and over my left shoulder and a sparkling shower of glittering golden light appears at the back of the garden. The kid begins to heasitate. I let go of his hand and urge him forward to the light. He gets to within about a foot of the light, looks in like he's looking in an open door, and then turns and runs away. I walk up to the light and look in and there are two beings there waiting to receive him. They seem humanoid in that they have all the features of humans, two arms, two legs, a head with eyes, nose, and a mouth. They don't have wings or anything, but they are definitely NOT human. They don't acknowlege me, but seem to be watching the boy run away and they seem very sad. At that point I wake up. Now, like I said, this was my first psychopompic dream and while I could tell this was a Medicine dream, I was ready to pretty much put it behind me and move on. ...until about six weeks later. I'm at the mall with my family just before Christmas, finishing up our holiday shopping. My daughters had some allowance money they wanted to spend, so my wife took them to one of their favorite stores: Build-a-bear workshop. I'm not a big BBWS fan, but my girls love it, so I obediently but disengagedly followed along. I'm just sort of strolling along, looking at bear accessories and not really paying any attention to what's going on around me. I hear my six year-old talking to my wife and my wife say, "Honey, you can get that one if you want to, but if you do, it'll take ALL your money and you won't be able to get any outfits or anything." "But mommy, I want THIS one!" I look over ready to start to support my wife in her trying to teach our daughter a little fiscal responsibility and stop dead in my tracks. My six year-old daughter, who is the beat of my heart and the air in my lungs, is holding the exact same bunny the little girl in my dream had been holding. I don't mean a bunny that kinda looked like the one in my dream, I mean the EXACT SAME bunny. Same pink nose, same pink satin in the ears... SAME BUNNY. I felt like I'd been kicked in the gut. I couldn't breathe right, I started to get a little dizzy... My wife looked at me and said, "What's wrong with you? You look like you've seen a ghost." I couldn't even answer her. I wanted to scream at my baby girl, "PUT IT DOWN!! RUN AWAY!!", but I couldn't even talk. I just turned around and walked out of the store. It was a little later that I understood that the bunny was a sign from Spirit letting me know that what I experienced was real. That I had a calling and that this was something I was supposed to do. So, I've been doing everything I can to become a stronger Lucid Dreamer (thus my attendance here) and have been doing psychopomp work ever since. That was the first of probably 20 dreams I've had in which I am helping people cross over. And, eventhough it wasn't successful, it was the easiest. As for advice: unless you're called to do it - don't. I've experienced things in dreams I don't talk to anyone about, not even my spiritual teacher who is supposed to help me learn how this stuff works. It's not "cool". It's not fun. It is the most raw and gut-wrenching emotional experience a person can have and remain breathing. I experience feelings of loss and grief so profound it amazes me I can even wake up. I've dealt with entities of pure Evil and were it not for the protection of my Spirit Guides, I'd have been smashed into an incoherent pile of babbling idiocy. This is not something to take lightly nor to do on a whim. If you go down this Path, do it with pure intent and with a LOT of spiritual protection.

[Naiya]

I think it's definitely possible for spirits to contact us via our dreams. I usually don't go out of my way to contact random spirits, though. I have run into many lost souls over the years. Personally, I don't trust spirits much. For one thing, they can look and sound like anything they want to, which is enough to fool most of us. Of course, I may be jaded because my dream guide/spirit guide is a dick and makes me crazy, but I tend to be extremely suspicious of any and all spirits who claim to only want to help you just because they're soo fucking enlightened and nice. My advice to anyone else is, use a ton of shielding, do a lot of praying/connecting to whatever source of Good you believe in, and always have a healthy amount of suspicion and boundaries when dealing with spirits. Sadly for me I was APing when I was very young and didn't have a clue what it was, so I kind of screwed myself. So don't anyone be like me.

[Think0808]

I’m glad to hear that other people find spirits in their dreams to be standoffish when you try to communicate with them. I find that to be very true. Just recently I had a dream that the bedroom in my basement was full of ghosts of all different shapes and sizes and colors. When I went down to get ready in the morning they were just patiently waiting for me, they had expected me to come. I have to believe that these spirits chose me like I have been for as long as I remember. When I was a child I believe ghosts visited me in the waking hours and almost every night in my dreams, and all they would do is just stand there scaring me without even trying. I think many of them cause fear in peoples dreams and that is why they don’t try to talk to people unless it is necessary. I had a dream a couple of weeks ago that actually work me up in time to go to church. I was standing in a wooden hallway, kind of like a school or a hospital or something, it was pretty narrow and there was only one light directly above me, I couldn’t see either end of the hall because of the lighting. When out of the darkness comes a 25-35 year old man with olive skin and red/blonde hair. He was dressed in black wearing a sort of “Beatnik” outfit. In his hand he was holding a bible and was very distressed. He showed me the bible and told me “I can’t do it” “Will you show me it?” He showed me that he couldn’t even bare to open the cover of the bible. I tried to tell him about Jesus but I woke up and was very disappointed and very alert when I woke up. I know that that spirit wanted to crossover and be with god. That is the dream that made me believe I have to try and do this, you can find more info in my dream journal about this dream. How did you decide to do this? How did you come up with that name for it ?

[Omega Weapon]

Define spirit rather than simply talking about them like "they just are".

[Think0808]

Well it's pretty simple to me. A spirit is the sub-concious of a man who is no longer here. Your spirit is your sub-concious, it is not completely free until you die. Now there are a couple of options past these facts to me. ***ONE*** Good spirits either go to be in heaven (however you picture it, jesus, budda, muhammed. Many prophets have tried to explain it and they all go to the same place)...and Bad spirits are left to wonder the earth like lucifer who "walks the earth" in "hell" ?? Right so everything that isn't heaven is hell; hence...earth. ***TWO*** Every spirit on earth must stay here good or bad, until judgement day.

[Oneiro]

A spirit is the sub-concious (sic) of a man who is no longer here. Nope. You are soooooooooo wrong. A "spirit" is a DC impersonating a "spirit". Just ask them and don't fall for their bullshit.

[saxonharp]

Define spirit rather than simply talking about them like "they just are". Good point. I use spirit in a couple of different ways: First there's "Spirit." Spirit is The Source/The Great Mystery/The Nagual/God, etc. This is the essence of all that is. Then, there's "spirit". This is a much more personal and individual manifestation of the former "Spirit." We all HAVE "spirit", and we are all OF "Spirit." When I speak of encountering spirits in a Psychopompic way, I'm describing the essences of individuals whose bodies have ceased to function (ie. they're "dead") but whose essences are still descernible as individual entities. Some of these have failed - for any number of reasons - to finish their journey and cross over. Some have crossed over, but come back in order to accomplish something. I could also speak of encountering "Spirit" through such mediums as Guides, Allies and Benefactors. These are those transitional aspects of The Source that I can interact with, interpret and understand at this or slightly higher levels of existance.

[Oneiro]

When I speak of encountering spirits in a Psychopompic way, I'm describing the essences of individuals whose bodies have ceased to function (ie. they're "dead") but whose essences are still descernible as individual entities. Some of these have failed - for any number of reasons - to finish their journey and cross over. Some have crossed over, but come back in order to accomplish something. Nope. They are DCs impersonating your own expectations of "spirits". Just ask them, if you ever have a lucid dream, that is.

[saxonharp]

Nope. They are DCs impersonating your own expectations of "spirits". Just ask them, if you ever have a lucid dream, that is. I find it intersting that you can so succinctly and definitively qualify and at the same time negate my experience for me. Having never met me nor interacted with me in any way, you somehow have the magical ability to determine my reality. You must be truly gifted.

[Omega Weapon]

Well it's pretty simple to me. A spirit is the sub-concious of a man who is no longer here. Your spirit is your sub-concious, it is not completely free until you die. Now there are a couple of options past these facts to me. ***ONE*** Good spirits either go to be in heaven (however you picture it, jesus, budda, muhammed. Many prophets have tried to explain it and they all go to the same place)...and Bad spirits are left to wonder the earth like lucifer who "walks the earth" in "hell" ?? Right so everything that isn't heaven is hell; hence...earth. ***TWO*** Every spirit on earth must stay here good or bad, until judgement day. OK that makes sense. Now why should these exist?

[Omega Weapon]

Good point. I use spirit in a couple of different ways: First there's "Spirit." Spirit is The Source/The Great Mystery/The Nagual/God, etc. This is the essence of all that is. Then, there's "spirit". This is a much more personal and individual manifestation of the former "Spirit." We all HAVE "spirit", and we are all OF "Spirit." When I speak of encountering spirits in a Psychopompic way, I'm describing the essences of individuals whose bodies have ceased to function (ie. they're "dead") but whose essences are still descernible as individual entities. Some of these have failed - for any number of reasons - to finish their journey and cross over. Some have crossed over, but come back in order to accomplish something. I could also speak of encountering "Spirit" through such mediums as Guides, Allies and Benefactors. These are those transitional aspects of The Source that I can interact with, interpret and understand at this or slightly higher levels of existance. OK; I can understand the larger spirit, but I'm still rather unclear on these more personal things. Are these conciousness? or images? or new beings? what quite do you mean by essence?

[Oneiro]

I find it intersting (sic) that you can so succinctly and definitively qualify and at the same time negate my experience for me. Having never met me nor interacted with me in any way, you somehow have the magical ability to determine my reality. You must be truly gifted. Well.. thankyou for your praise.. but I'm really just a nobody who has encountered a myriad of types like yourself, who've never got anywhere with LDing.

[saxonharp]

OK; I can understand the larger spirit, but I'm still rather unclear on these more personal things. Are these conciousness? or images? or new beings? what quite do you mean by essence? What are our physical bodies made of? Atoms. What are atoms made of? Subatomic particles. I'm not a physicist, but it is my understanding that the ratio of mass to volume of an atom is extremely low. That is to say that atoms are something like 99.99% space (certainly any of you physicists out there are free to correct me if you'd like). If atoms are that 'insubstantial' then our whole physical existance is likewise insubstantial - some call it an illusion. If our physical reality is that insignificant, then what are we truly? This is the basic question that both religion and philosophy have struggled with since mankind first had the concept of "I vs. We." What I propose is that we are not just physical beings but that we are more substantially energy beings. This "energy" being that which is the stuff in between the subatomic particles and exists as a constant through various levels/phases/stages/planes of what we call "existance." This energy manifests itself in different ways throughout these planes of existance. It is this constant, but dynamically manifested, energy that I call an individual's "spirit."

[saxonharp]

Well.. thankyou for your praise.. but I'm really just a nobody who has encountered a myriad of types like yourself, who've never got anywhere with LDing. And what, exactly, am I like, since you seem to know so much about me? And what precisely do you believe my experience with Lucid Dreaming to be?

[Omega Weapon]

What are our physical bodies made of? Atoms. What are atoms made of? Subatomic particles. I'm not a physicist, but it is my understanding that the ratio of mass to volume of an atom is extremely low. That is to say that atoms are something like 99.99% space (certainly any of you physicists out there are free to correct me if you'd like). If atoms are that 'insubstantial' then our whole physical existance is likewise insubstantial - some call it an illusion. If our physical reality is that insignificant, then what are we truly? This is the basic question that both religion and philosophy have struggled with since mankind first had the concept of "I vs. We." What I propose is that we are not just physical beings but that we are more substantially energy beings. This "energy" being that which is the stuff in between the subatomic particles and exists as a constant through various levels/phases/stages/planes of what we call "existance." This energy manifests itself in different ways throughout these planes of existance. It is this constant, but dynamically manifested, energy that I call an individual's "spirit." What about the consensus that we are the combination of billions of these subatomic particles creating a whole conciousness? Does it not seem more plausible than assuming that there is an invisible undetectable force? I am intrigued though.

[saxonharp]

What about the consensus that we are the combination of billions of these subatomic particles creating a whole conciousness? Does it not seem more plausible than assuming that there is an invisible undetectable force? I am intrigued though. Perhaps for some. I'm not satisfied with that though. Fistly, I didn't day invisible or undetectable - you did. Visible with what we call "eyes"? No. But are there other senses that we have that CAN detect this? Yes. Admittedly, it is a very personal belief and not one that can be proven one way or the other (at this point). But an accidental existance consisting merely of a combination of bio-electric impulses generated by some insubstantial mass of mostly nothingness to me is even harder to believe than that there is more to our existance - and by extension ALL existance - than what can be experienced through our traditional five senses or recorded through imperical data. You can call that universal energy whatever you want. It doesn't change what it is. As Juliet said, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

[Naiya]

Well.. thankyou for your praise.. but I'm really just a nobody who has encountered a myriad of types like yourself, who've never got anywhere with LDing. Hey, LDer here. Have 'em every single night. The spirits I encounter always tell me that they are in fact sentient beings which exist outside of my own mind when I ask them. So there goes your moronic theory that everyone will have exactly the same experience that you did. Whether or not spirits exist isn't my point--my point is that you're trying to argue that everyone's lucid dream is going to be exactly the same as yours were, which is incredibly naive, absurd, and pretty stupid.

[Oneiro]

Hey, LDer here. Have 'em every single night. The spirits I encounter always tell me that they are in fact sentient beings which exist outside of my own mind when I ask them. Well now.. there's a thing.. so do mine.. But when I've asked them if they are the "spirits of dead people" they always answer in the negative.... do yours say that they are? So there goes your moronic theory that everyone will have exactly the same experience that you did. Funny that.. so far, your experience is exactly the same as mine.. Whether or not spirits exist isn't my point--my point is that you're trying to argue that everyone's lucid dream is going to be exactly the same as yours.. I wasn't trying to argue anything of the sort. My point was that anyone who thinks they dream of the "spirits of dead people" doesn't know what they are talking about. which is incredibly naive, absurd, and pretty stupid. Now who's being moronic? You shouldn't jump to conclusions.. Aaaaah.. the public forums.. doncha just love 'em?