Thread: Why do You believe?

Naiya, you always put into words what I cannot. Your comments perfectly describe my point of view. I dislike it when people use the word "believe," since it's not some superstition, it's truth. It's more like either you accept it or not. I'm really tired, so that mey not have made any sense, but my bottom ine is that I support Naiya's comments just as would my own.

Personally I find that things happen whether or not I believe in them and this applies for both scientific things as well as spiritual things. Gravity is at work 24/7 whether you believe in it or not. The difference here is that Isaac Newton asked the first question and set about proving it. Still people have to experience it for themselves ( ie fall down to earth each and every time they try to fly ) to believe it exists.

The spiritual world is harder to explain or prove as one needs different "apparatus" to be able to experience it. Its not yet know what these "apparatus" are. Some people are born with it or develop it spontaneously so they just happen to see, hear and experience things without even try. ( I am one of those and I dont like it most of the time ). Others dont have these "apparatus" so they dont experience the same thing and therefore dont believe. If only I can lend people my body so that they can experience the same thing I do, unfortunately this can not happen.

Originally Posted by Nazzul

Give me a few examples of religion showing how something works within our bodies then maybe I will agree.

Not how something works... WHY something works. Remember, science tells us how, spirituality tells us why.

Originally Posted by Nazzul

Can you test these things on religion? Or do you just take it on faith?

Of course you can. Pick up any book on religion, follow the practice and see if it works. But if the first one, or the second one, or even the third or fourth don't work, don't come to the assumption that NONE do. Where would we be if Thomas Edison had stopped at three or four types of filaments? The man tested literally THOUSANDS of combinations of materials before he found one that worked.

Spirituality is even more personal than light bulb filaments. In the end, everyone takes in what works for them and leaves the rest. The more open you are to sources, the more you can fill in the holes.

To me, science and religion have the same purpose - to find out how the world works. One is based on looking inward, the other on looking outward. Both are methods, which can reveal a lot of information. (In this sense I am talking about spirituality, the method of investigation being prayer or meditation). Science can only describe the world, not our beings, nor what is ultimately important for our happiness. That is the domain of religion - the domain of inward exploration.

yes one is useless without the other, they are both one, ignoring one is like keeping one of your eyes shut, become half blind

but both "science" and "religion" have varying degrees of looking inward and outward, so there is no real difference, only ideas ~_~, so you just seperate what is true and what is not, what is a valid idea and what is not, what is beneficial what is not, seperate the light and dark

Give me a few examples of religion showing how something works within our bodies then maybe I will agree.

we're not your reseach assistants o.O we're bringing down walls, you keep putting them up, we can not force you to consider anything, you have to make the choice yourself and put the effort in, if you have a question do some research yourself, this is a useful skill

also i have already provided an example in a previous post, that site is very useful

*LEAVES*

I'm never using the word "religion" in here again.

Mm. An example of why something works that does not come from modern day science?

The Buddha claimed that a basic reason for the suffering in our lives is attachment to things. He argued that every single thing or feeling will change; attachment to a thing that will change will inevitably bring a sense of loss.

I see Buddhism as a pretty thorough, structured system, very close to what we call science nowadays - the only difference being in that the Buddha looked inward, and science looks outward to the material world. And (in my opinion mistakenly) science attempts to explain our inner world by processes, for which models are derived from the outside world.

On the other hand, I must agree that there is a lot of dogmatic, blind religion, which is damaging to the human condition, which inhibits people from thinking for themselves and closes their minds. It seems to me that people who argue against religion take this kind of view of religion - close minded, dogmatic, unjustified belief. The side who seems to argue for religion seems to think of religion more as spirituality - an open minded search for truth, beyond the simple models of causal reality that science offers.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Um, religion is closed minded. How on earth can you not see that...do the Christians change their view of hell? no, it's always the same, it never changes.

Hey there Flanders. If you need some kind of "label" to identify my beliefs, I guess you could say I'm a form of Christan. I attend Unity of the Palm Beaches here in florida(not to be confused with Unitarianism). I'm not sure if your familiar with it or not. Unity is world wide and not some fly by night type thing, millions attend and practice the teaching of Unity(Oprah is one name you should know who practices it). Unity is about teaching the positive, practical Christianity. It believes that all people are created with sacred worth, and strives to reach out to all who seek support and spiritual growth. Therefore, Unity recognizes the importance of serving all people in spiritually and emotionally caring ways. Unity is free of discrimination on the basis of race, gender, age, creed, religion, national origin, ethnicity, physical disability, and sexual orientation. Unity's sincere desire is to create spiritually aware organizations that are nondiscriminatory and support diversity.

In reply to your quote above, I give you a direct quote from the website:

What does Unity teach about sin and salvation, heaven and hell?

Sin is our separation from God, the Good, in consciousness. Salvation is now--not something that occurs after death. It happens whenever we turn our thoughts from fear, anxiety, worry, and doubt to thoughts of love, harmony, joy, and peace. The "fall" takes place in consciousness whenever we fall into negative habits of thinking. Heaven and hell are states of consciousness, not geographical locations. We make our own heaven or hell here and now by our thoughts, words, and deeds.

- http://www.unityonline.org/aboutunity/whoWeAre/faq.html

So clearly, christians vision of hell does change......

Yes, my parents were in Unity, but that's not why I aligned myself with it. That was a personal choice. I've been in many different churches, even watched ministers yell and scream and invoke fear in their followers about how the devil will come into your body and make you do this and that and how you will sin and all this crap. The question is though, why didn't I remain attending these churches? BECAUSE IT DIDN'T FEEL RIGHT. Everything I've ever heard in Unity has felt right. I've never seen a Unity minister talking about the devil taking over your soul, or demons or anything of that sort. Every sermon is simply the greatest, most inspirational, positive message you can get. The guided meditations are phenomenal, and the coolest thing is they don't conflict with religions. The expierences and visions I've had are REAL. I've expierenced them FIRST HAND. I've listened to sermons where the whole message has been about goal setting. It seems like everything I need to succeed in life and overcome obstacles has been a message in sermons. That's what Unity is.

This is probably why I believe all religions to hold a place, as they all strive for the same goal. My vision is the world in unity(despite the pun), striving for the same thing. This is how I see it. I feel if we are truly to have a golden age, it would only be after we come together as a collective consciousness, and realize we all are from the same "higher power". Some just have ridiculous limitations, that you have to take a step back and say, does this feel right in my being, in my heart.

The Buddha claimed that a basic reason for the suffering in our lives is attachment to things. He argued that every single thing or feeling will change; attachment to a thing that will change will inevitably bring a sense of loss.

yes this is karma, cause and effect, action reaction etc,

the same idea could be used to turn it around, a non-attachment to things will bring about a sense of gain, so if you want everything you will have nothing..... if you want nothing you will have everything, just means there is a balance between everything, here Bhudda is talking about the balance of pleasure and pain, relativity applied to happiness basically

your desires can be controlled by the will, which then allows you to control your happiness, i think a lot of teachings aim to show a person the neutral zone in this balance, if you can situate yourself here you will be neither happy or sad, and have a clearer perception without the obstruction of the feelings or... illusion some might say

this neutral zone brings about enjoyment that is not dependant on relative truths, since you are able to percieve reality free of delusion, ignorance/delusion then been the cause of unhappiness.... ignorant of the reactions to their actions, a little bit of my own interpretations anyway,

so now rather than having happiness as something that you blindly chase after, you understand how it works past the instinctive level so it becomes a tool that is controlled by the will

Ontop of all the discussion about science/religion, I'd like to add a quote from Albert Einstein:

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us the "Universe", a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personla desires and to affection to a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creates and the whole of nature in its beauty"

And another one from him:

"If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism"

Both quotes I subscribe to.

I think there has been a bit of confusion I would consider my sefl a spiritual person but not a Religious person. I do not believe in a god but I do believe in the power within.

I do not believe in a god

you do not believe you exist then, once you realise you exist, then god is not a matter of faith, he is simply everything and anything... infinity itself whatever infinity may "be", the "origin", cause of all causes, god is just replacement word for infinity/eternal, infinity and eternal is not definable... we can only get a feeling for infinity but not grasp it, we only know that infinity/god exists... but we can not explain it

god.. an invalid idea but must be true to make us true, since we are true... then god is true, so it is our thinking that is invalid.. must come to embrace god/infinity/eternity if you want to understand anything

how can you say god doesnt exist when you cant even define god

Perhaps we say that God does not exist exactly because we cannot define him. Certainly, if we could, then we would know what God is, and there would be no question of his existence. Our minds however are restricted.

I do not like to use the word God to describe this oneness. Let it be called oneness, or unity, but not God. God imo refers to a primitive, middle-aged notion of a conscious, omnipotent entity, the idea of which is full of contradictions and problems.

Originally Posted by gaia

Perhaps we say that God does not exist exactly because we cannot define him. Certainly, if we could, then we would know what God is, and there would be no question of his existence. Our minds however are restricted.

I do not like to use the word God to describe this oneness. Let it be called oneness, or unity, but not God. God imo refers to a primitive, middle-aged notion of a conscious, omnipotent entity, the idea of which is full of contradictions and problems.

I prefer "The Great Mystery" or "Spirit". However, the term "God" helps me communicate with those who have had less exposure to or done less self-examination about the nature of the Infinite.

We're talking about the same thing regardless what we call it and if I adjust my verbiage to make someone else more comfortable, what harm?

Originally Posted by george

I am going through a phase, perhaps that is the correct term, of trying to justify my beliefs. I want to believe in things not material, but there remains the nagging thought that materialistic worldviews can equally explain the (objective) phenomena, like consciousness, dreams, out of body experiences etc.

What are your reasons, if you have any, for believing in things "beyond dreaming"? What event in your life has convinced you beyond doubt?

If you do not believe, it is not necessary that you reply. I am aware of those reasons. I am looking for for-arguments.

Thank you

does knowing how the human eye works make viewing artwork less meaningful?

becareful, don't be fooled into thinking if the spiritual is real, then it must be something that can't be explained. everything can be explained. that doesn't mean its less real, less significant, or less spiritual.

My reasons for believing are pretty straightforward.

Believing in something will result in you attempting to see if that something is true or not.

Not believing in something will result in you attempting nothing at all, because you don't even believe in it.

So it is obvious, that believing will give you more advantages and more chance of finding out the truth. In fact, not believing won't even make you do an attempt at finding out the truth. You just don't believe it and thats where the process stops. Strong believers however will do anything to find out wether their belief is true or not.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

My reasons for believing are pretty straightforward.

Believing in something will result in you attempting to see if that something is true or not.

Not believing in something will result in you attempting nothing at all, because you don't even believe in it.

So it is obvious, that believing will give you more advantages and more chance of finding out the truth. In fact, not believing won't even make you do an attempt at finding out the truth. You just don't believe it and thats where the process stops. Strong believers however will do anything to find out wether their belief is true or not.

I disagree. Strong beleivers will do anything to prove to themselves that what they believe is true. The very fact that a person is a believer means that they will do whatever it takes to maintain the existance of that belief.

Belief - in a spiritual sense anyway - by and large, is inversely proportionate to standard "logic".

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

My reasons for believing are pretty straightforward.

Believing in something will result in you attempting to see if that something is true or not.

Not believing in something will result in you attempting nothing at all, because you don't even believe in it.

So it is obvious, that believing will give you more advantages and more chance of finding out the truth. In fact, not believing won't even make you do an attempt at finding out the truth. You just don't believe it and thats where the process stops. Strong believers however will do anything to find out wether their belief is true or not.

I agree with saxon, also, I would rather not have any beliefs than have a load of false ones.

I agree with saxon, also, I would rather not have any beliefs than have a load of false ones.

doesnt matter if the belief is true or false, if its true then great.. ur in touch with reality/existence/god.... if its false then it will eventually be proven false.... just dont ignore whats in your face, no matter how strong a believer you are, false beliefs will always come out as false beliefs eventually... given enough time,

this is how you go to hell, refusing to discard false beliefs, so yes... everyone does go to heaven eventually as false beliefs are that... false, only the truth remains in the end

so by all means, believe something....anything....as its the only way to find the truth

in this sense... the word "why" becomes obsolete as its questioning whether you should even attempt to believe, when the only way to find out if its true is to believe first

imagine how many people are questioned on their course of action everyday (especially kids, at their most vulnerable stage of development), why this, why that etc, they usually dont have a reply because they only have an intuitive feel for it and it makes people feel like they are doing something "wrong" when they are just exploring the unknown/existence/god, then the person gets trapped into thinking in terms of words/logic of "whys" so that your ready to justify your actions in case it causes a problem, sometimes it takes people years to get out of this trap... and to realise how you got into the trap in the first place... some people dont even realise to the day they die

from looking at the 7 chakra points and the attributes asssociated with them, you can tell where a person is concentrating their energy and so where any imbalances lie, anyone can find their own chakra points, look up where the 7 chakras lie, then close your eyes and focus the feel of your body on the chakra points, slowly move from one to the other to distinctly feel them, gets easier and easier to feel them

ive recently picked up that my heart chakra was been completely ignored, so my material existence (the 3 chakras below the heart) was not aligned with my spiritual existence (3 above the heart), so i had been developing my chakras/conciousness for a long time without any direction or clarity... i just kept pushing and pushing, in the end i didnt even figure it out myself, god sent a beautiful angel to fix it so when these people say all about love etc their talking about your mental state/conciousness/chakras, instead of top to bottom (spiritual/religion/inner world) or bottom to top (material/science/outer world), you position yourself in the middle (heart chakra) and let everything flow from there, then all fear/doubt disappears, a strong heart is invincible

Originally Posted by Keiju

how can you say god doesnt exist when you cant even define god

If you cannot define God does that mean all religions are wrong? If it is impossible to define God I dont see much of a point in believing in one.

Astral projections is a scientific possibility. Science isn't advanced enough to be able to explain it, but it's not impossible according to science.

God can be defined. The Bible says God is love. People intrepret it as God is a old man sitting in heaven on his throne. It's not the fault of the Bible that people have a wrong concept of God... it's because most people refuse to read the Bible or any religious scripture at all, that they don't know what God is.

If you cannot define God does that mean all religions are wrong? If it is impossible to define God I dont see much of a point in believing in one.

i dont "believe" in god, i see god in front of me, this existence, whatever the fk it is, god is not something to be defined, "it" doesnt exist, IT IS existence, and noone knows what existence is... so noone knows what god is... only that it seems eternal

God can be defined. The Bible says God is love.

love = ? god? = love = ?

Love is only one aspect of God.

But it is scientificly proven, if you meditate on the emotion love, that your love will become stronger. Also, scientific experiments have shown that praying has a similar calming effect on the mind as meditating. Therefor I personally conclude, that praying to God does indeed have a positive effect on the mind.

Perhaps only to reassure the person who is praying but it has no effect outside of the mind of the individual doing the praying.

They did some research awhile ago on praying and no it desnt work. Praying for someone to get better from cancer or world hunger to end doesnt do jack shit.

what research would this be?