Thread: James Randi's $1 Million Dollar Challenge

Er, no, that operation got cancelled because the results were no good.

Originally posted by Kaniaz
Er, no, that operation got cancelled because the results were no good.

which operation, the CIA remote viewing? I disagree, I am confident that it/they were held for many years, many times, and were completely successful.

Here is the OFFICIAL CLASSIFIED, but now recently declassified CIA reports.


http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CI...nitiatedRV.html


Booyah. tell me this never happened, or didnt/doesnt work now.[/u][/i]

Hosted on a site that is pretty bonkers, "recently" declassified 10 years ago. So, fine, I'll tell you. Right below the first result for "remote viewing CIA" is this document, hosted on a pretty damn official site, since we're doing the whole CIA thing:

The US program was sustained through the support of Sen. Claiborne Pell, D-R.I., and Rep. Charles Rose, D-N.C., who were convinced of the program's effectiveness. However, by the early 1990s the program was plagued by uneven management, poor unit morale, divisiveness within the organization, poor performance, and few accurate results. The FY 1995 Defense Appropriations bill directed that the program be transferred to CIA, with CIA instructed to conduct a retrospective review of the program. In 1995 the American Institutes for Research (AIR) was contracted by CIA to evaluate the program. Their 29 September 1995 final report was released to the public 28 November 1995. A positive assessment by statistician Jessica Utts, that a statistically significant effect had been demonstrated in the laboratory [the government psychics were said to be accurate about 15 percent of the time], was offset by a negative one by psychologist Ray Hyman [a prominent CSICOP psychic debunker]. The final recommendation by AIR was to terminate the STAR GATE effort. CIA concluded that there was no case in which ESP had provided data used to guide intelligence operations.[/b]

Bolded parts made for your convinence, so you don't have to read the whole thing (I hate reading lengthy articles).

Originally posted by Kaniaz
Hosted on a site that is pretty bonkers, \"recently\" declassified 10 years ago. So, fine, I'll tell you. Right below the first result for \"remote viewing CIA\" is this document, hosted on a pretty damn official site, since we're doing the whole CIA thing:

The US program was sustained through the support of Sen. Claiborne Pell, D-R.I., and Rep. Charles Rose, D-N.C., who were convinced of the program's effectiveness. However, by the early 1990s the program was plagued by uneven management, poor unit morale, divisiveness within the organization, poor performance, and few accurate results. The FY 1995 Defense Appropriations bill directed that the program be transferred to CIA, with CIA instructed to conduct a retrospective review of the program. In 1995 the American Institutes for Research (AIR) was contracted by CIA to evaluate the program. Their 29 September 1995 final report was released to the public 28 November 1995. A positive assessment by statistician Jessica Utts, that a statistically significant effect had been demonstrated in the laboratory [the government psychics were said to be accurate about 15 percent of the time], was offset by a negative one by psychologist Ray Hyman [a prominent CSICOP psychic debunker]. The final recommendation by AIR was to terminate the STAR GATE effort. CIA concluded that there was no case in which ESP had provided data used to guide intelligence operations.

Bolded parts made for your convinence, so you don't have to read the whole thing (I hate reading lengthy articles).[/b]

well thats a good reply, however...

First of all, read the entire article that you link. The whole time, it praises the project for working!

"By 1995 the program had conducted several hundred intelligence collection projects involving thousands of remote viewing sessions. Notable successes were said to be "eight martini" results, so-called because the remote viewing data were so mind-boggling that everyone has to go out and drink eight martinis to recover. Reported intelligence gathering successes included....."



The only thing, this is the part that you bring it, is that it was terminated in the early 90s, due to multiple reasons. Only one of which was poor performance, possibly caused by the other reasons that they cited. I actually read a book on these projects, and a lot of the time, it talks about how Russel Targ, left the project for a bunch of manegerial reasons.


So from 1969 to 1995, a government funded project had huge successes with psychics. Then, it was terminated due to a bunch of reasons. Im sorry but you have a very weak argument against pychic abilities here. You provide a link that actually furthers my case for the existence of psi.

I dont want to get into "a link war" here, but I urge anyone who is interested in this topic, to really read up on it. Try the book I mentioned.


At one point people didnt think"things called "germs" existed, or "other planets". Our knowledge increases all the time, and the best thing to do is approach it with an open mind. Maybe there is no such thing as "being psychic", or having any sort of powers. I am willing to admit that that is a possibility.

But right now, I have a fair amount of knowledge on the subject (far from being an expert), and I find it hard to believe that psi and psychics do not exist.

It got terminated. Poor results. That is a nice happy solid case for me.

I'll requote the important sentence for you.

CIA concluded that there was no case in which ESP had provided data used to guide intelligence operations.[/b]

[i]O'nus edit: Ad hominems are un-necessary.

[quote]I'll requote the important sentence for you.

CIA concluded that there was no case in which ESP had provided data used to guide intelligence operations.

[i]O'nus edit: Ad hominems are un-necessary.


If you read the article, it talks about all the huge successes prior to 1990.

Yes, it got terminated because of poor results...after 1990.

So 21 years of results...5 years bad results...according to an outside company paid to find its flaws (read more on the topic)...you guys are right, it must be a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

Just because they dont teach it in school, doesnt make it false.

yes i realize it doesnt make it true either.


Everyone is entitled to their opinions

My apologies for the inappropriate comment, just tired today i guess.

Just for the record, many of my previous preconceptions about Randi have changed. As such my opinions have evolved.
I see Randi's challenge as admirable however it does not disprove everything paranormal.
Most of the arguments levelled against his challenge are unfair and/or baseless
Yes, he's an arrogant, crass old man. And yes, he would (and can) pay the 1 mil if/when someone earns it.

I should add that he also *has* to (by law), if you win it fair and square.

Originally posted by Kaniaz
I should add that he also *has* to (by law), if you win it fair and square.

That wasn't the only question levelled at his challenge.
But yes, if you win the challenge it would be fraud for him not to pay up.

Sorry if this is changing the subject a little, but lately the nuts on Sylvia's fan board are claiming that ringing in their ears is their "spirit guide" trying to contact them. I always thought that it was tinnitus, a common medical condition.. I'd like to enlighten her fans to the truth, but they'll just say I have a closed mind. Just wondering what anyone here thought about such nonsense....

I think that they should go to a loud rock concert and stand next to the speakers - they'll have loads of spirit guides

Originally posted by Kaniaz
I should add that he also *has* to (by law), if you win it fair and square.

He has to give you the bonds, yes. Whether those bonds have any real worth is still up for debate.

(And no, I'm not going to sit here and debate everything point by point, I just wanted to add my two cents then call it quits )

~Sean

Hey, peebrain -- don't I know you from PsiPog? I'm Seishinnomiko.

Hi :-). Ya, I'm Peebrain from PsiPog.

~Sean

I thought I recognized that name! So, what are your thoughts on this whole thing?

I don't trust Randi, but I do trust capitalism. I might take the Challenge in the future when I have enough resources to do so. It's not as simple as "fill out the application and do it!". But that doesn't mean it can't be done .

~Sean

Good luck with that.

Originally posted by peebrain+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(peebrain)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Kaniaz

I should add that he also *has* to (by law), if you win it fair and square.

He has to give you the bonds, yes. Whether those bonds have any real worth is still up for debate.

(And no, I'm not going to sit here and debate everything point by point, I just wanted to add my two cents then call it quits )
[/b]

Not wanting to argue, but wanting a bit of clarification :
There's a bit of confusion about this - did Randi/Kramer send you copies of the bond information, as per Goldman & Sacks. Or not?
I've heard varying answers

No, I did not receive any information from Randi/Kramer. I don't know why they think I have received information. Everything that I have received from them is in the log I've posted multiple times in the $$$$ thread on their forum.

~Sean

Its because what someone considers "proof" might not be the same as others. If they don't both agree nothing happens. If he says something has to be repeatable 100% of the time then maybe there is a valid point to saying hes just making stuff up. 80% of the time out of a 100 tries might be considered solid proof to others.