Thread: James Randi's $1 Million Dollar Challenge

Originally posted by Alric
Its because what someone considers \"proof\" might not be the same as others. If they don't both agree nothing happens. If he says something has to be repeatable 100% of the time then maybe there is a valid point to saying hes just making stuff up. 80% of the time out of a 100 tries might be considered solid proof to others.

I don't think you're on the same page, Alric.
Peebrain sent Randi and Kramer a simple question regarding the form and value of the cash/bonds.
Besides being completely anal and beligerent, not to mention not forthcoming, they then posted the emails on their site with major modifications. Thereafter, Randi's forum members proceeded to extrapolate an answer of 'the winnings are in cash, and case closed' ... only to become red-faced when it turned out they were making assumptions - the winnings are in negotiable bonds.

Peebrain: You realise that by law, they are required to produce those bond papers to anyone asking? If they don't, they are breaching the law. I suspect this is why they claim they sent it. Perhaps they did, perhaps they didn't... snail mail isn't listed next to death and taxes.

At least this is what I understand of it

BTW - I'll correct my post on their forum (I mentioned that you were sent the papers - which is what JREF claimed)

My point was either side can be a pain in the butt without really lieing or cheating.

Originally posted by Placebo
Peebrain: You realise that by law, they are required to produce those bond papers to anyone asking? If they don't, they are breaching the law. I suspect this is why they claim they sent it. Perhaps they did, perhaps they didn't... snail mail isn't listed next to death and taxes.

I never gave them my home address.

~Sean

Peebrain, I seem to have not read some of the posts on that $$$$ thread :
You can ignore my questions, you seem to have made it quite clear in the thread (so far - still reading)

What bothers me is that you STILL don't have an answer...

Okay, let's see. Keep in mind here that Kramer is a representative of the JREF organisation...

1) Kramer (and most on the site) publicly roasted Peebrain based on many assumptions (which proved false). At least Kramer apologised for the rudeness. Kudus to Kramer for being man enough to apologise

2) Kramer blatantly stated that it was payable in CASH, not bonds. As it turns out, it is payable in negotiable bonds after all. No apology forthcoming for the false information. Everyone went damn quiet when the official FAQ corrected the perception regarding the cash/bonds issue. No response from Kramer to say 'Oops, sorry about that'. Nobody else either.

3) Peebrain was annoying with 'incessant questioning'. True, however that incessant questioning was based on lack of answers to his original questions.

3) Peebrain was told that he had been sent Goldman Sachs confirmation letter to show that the money exists, and Goldman Sachs may be able to provide further information regarding the state of such bonds. Peebrain claims to have neither received such a mail, nor was sent one after bringing this to their attention.

What's a bit suspicious is that no mention was made in email of the Goldman Sachs papers. Later, financial information was posted on the site by a member unaffilliated with JREF. The problem is the 'unaffilliated' part - the information was never confirmed as fact by a JREF representative, despite the request for such clarification.
Kramer did indicate that Peebrain could request the confirmation letter again, but Peebrain had left the discussion at that point.
I'm considering requesting the confirmation letter myself, to clear this one up.

3) There is an incriminating email that was received by Kramer. Kramer swears it was Peebrain's address. Peebrain swears to never have sent it. Okay, so we have one's word against the others. So let's examine it:
1. It's perfectly easy to examine the message header for verification.
2. This email was received AFTER peebrain had posted on the JREF site. The mail includes the following:

I was unaware that you were posting messages. I do not wish to pursue this matter further.[/b]

How could he be unaware that the messages had been posted online, when he had even REPLIED to them?
My opinion is that the email WAS indeed fake - Kramer is mistaken.

4) I feel that Peebrain should have been forthcoming regarding his possible claim. I can understand why he wasn't however. At the end of the day, if the Goldman Sachs confirmation letter had been received, this likely wouldn't have occurred.

5) As it turns out, Peebrain was considering a claim. The responses have left him reluctant - as is his personal situation. He won't be available for such a time consuming process in the short term. My point however: Would this correspondence have left him encouraged to submit his claim? Short answer: Not at all. Very discouraging responses

I say expect it. The JREF forums are pretty much the extreme side of skepticism, and it is indeed like walking into an pack of rabid hungry wolves. It's one big mess, from what I can glean above - I mean, when things reach faked emails and goodness knows what else, it's reaching a point of stupidity. When you go there, you will always get mud slinging. You're 1 person, on the other side of the scale for "psi belief" to those 1,000s that are on their forums. Coupled with the fact Randi is indeed a bit rude (but there's nothing we can do about that, it's up to him), it's one big barrel of gunpowder.

For all we know, some overzealous fan of Randi could of faked that email to Kramer. I'm not going to accuse peebrain of lying here - if he says he didn't send the email, he did not send the email. Somebody did, unless Kramer faked it himself.

I don't see why everybody is so worried about their million dollars actually existing. It's simple. If you win, and Randi pulls any stunt that ends up with you not getting a million dollars, even if it means he can not pay it out via some legal loophole, his career and reputation = ruined. I don't see why he would do that. I mean, he wouldn't set himself up for his own demise. He's certainly not stupid.

So, anyway, I'm a bit in the dark about this. i'll have to reread the older posts here. Peebrain was actually going to do it?

EDIT: (some time later). Okay, I think I'm accquainted with what's happening here. I've probably got something wrong, but anyway.

2) Kramer blatantly stated that it was payable in CASH, not bonds. As it turns out, it is payable in negotiable bonds after all. No apology forthcoming for the false information. Everyone went damn quiet when the official FAQ corrected the perception regarding the cash/bonds issue. No response from Kramer to say 'Oops, sorry about that'. Nobody else either. [/b]

That's certainly not right. Still, we all make mistakes. It's probably the whole \"better not apologise to the inferior one\" thing on there now. Most important thing is that they're correct now.

3) Peebrain was annoying with 'incessant questioning'. True, however that incessant questioning was based on lack of answers to his original questions.[/b]

Don't agree with that. Question all you like, isn't that what skepticism is based on?

3) Peebrain was told that he had been sent Goldman Sachs confirmation letter to show that the money exists, and Goldman Sachs may be able to provide further information regarding the state of such bonds. Peebrain claims to have neither received such a mail, nor was sent one after bringing this to their attention. *
[/b]

They probably will send it (they have to, apparently?). From what I can tell this has all been a bit chaotic and might of got lost, somebody got the wrong idea, etc etc etc. Try bugging them again. I wonder if you could directly contact Goldman Sachs?

I'm considering requesting the confirmation letter myself, to clear this one up.
[/b]

Please do - this is something I'm intrested in too.

3) There is an incriminating email that was received by Kramer. Kramer swears it was Peebrain's address. Peebrain swears to never have sent it. Okay, so we have one's word against the others. So let's examine it:
1. It's perfectly easy to examine the message header for verification.
2. This email was received AFTER peebrain had posted on the JREF site. The mail includes the following: [/b]

As I've said before, this is a bit odd isn't it.

4) I feel that Peebrain should have been forthcoming regarding his possible claim. I can understand why he wasn't however. At the end of the day, if the Goldman Sachs confirmation letter had been received, this likely wouldn't have occurred. [/b]

I understand too. It's a bit disorganized isn't it - it makes me wonder if they're thinking \"Oh no, an organized sensible person who isn't one of these downright childish frauds is coming! What the hell do we do, this never happens!\".

5) As it turns out, Peebrain was considering a claim. The responses have left him reluctant - as is his personal situation. He won't be available for such a time consuming process in the short term. My point however: Would this correspondence have left him encouraged to submit his claim? Short answer: Not at all. Very discouraging responses[/b]

Yeah. It would be nice if you could get hold of Randi directly instead of all this forum mess.

Anyway, that's it. hey, look, i just showed i'm not an blind follower of randi!

EDIT #2: (60 minutes later, after reading the $$$$$$$ thread, etc).

Wow. The members on the forum are arguing with each other. Some say peebrain should of been treated nicer, others say "fuck you" etc. Anyway, not sure if you've seen this little piccy, or wether or not it's useful, but just thought I'd mention it anyway.

and i see randi dosen't want to respond anymore...how fantastic So far the JREF have proven themselves, to me, a bit disgraceful. Still, I'd like to see this press on, at least we are getting somewhere with these claims and the like.

Yeah, they did show themselves in a very bad light.
However the whole episode seems to be simmering down. If I mention anything, I'd be ripped apart by those same rabid wolves
At least you get the point that randi's organisation has a lot to be desired
That being said, I understand what they're doing and it has some merit

Keep in mind though that the JREF cannot be considered to be a scientific mechanism to prove the paranormal.
What scientific institution has the demeanor of 'You're liars, I don't believe you bunch of woos. Don't make me laugh. Go Away' etc
The environment they've set up simply isn't scientific unfortunately

Nevertheless, a million dollars speaks louder than the local university
Who knows, maybe I'll nab it oneday before Peebrain

We can rehash this till we're all blue in the face. The bottom line is, Sylvia won't take the test because she will be proven a fraud.
Remember, this is not a bet, the only thing she has to lose is her credibility. But it wouldn't matter to her fans anyway, they would just say the test is rigged, and she would probably sell even more books, win or lose. Even if she won, and Randi didn't pay her, think of the publicity she would get, she'd make a fortune! And so what if the Randi Org. isn't scientific enough for some of you? The test would be performed by an independant group anyway, which has to be agreed upon by Sylvia. She knows she can't do it. A simple test of her powers. Won't do it. - Her is an example : 50 people, unknown to Randi or Sylvia. Each one has one picture in pocket of recent dead relative. All she has to do is go to each person (since she claims dead people are all around us, and she can see them), and say Male or Female. That's it. Male or Female. Not "there is someone with dark hair" or "someone died of a disease" Male or Female!. Of course, by chance, she would get about half right. How many right is proof? I believe 37 or more right would be proof enough, to eliminate random chance. (but don't quote me on that, I am not a stat. math expert). But of course she would get them all right! Come on Sylvia! Male or Female! It's that easy!

You know, there ARE other applicants out there besides Browne
And you're the one rehashing it till you're blue in the face - the last post was a full month ago.

What if James Randi don't care to give me the money?

Oh well, I guess I'm paranoid.

Originally posted by albinox
What if James Randi don't care to give me the money?

Oh well, I guess I'm paranoid.

Read the challenge rules - he HAS to give you the money if you pass the tests
And even then, if he doesn't you can then prove it to scientists and turn Randi's name to dirt
.. and pick up a few mil for being famous