Thread: "The people in your dreams are only products of your imagination"

Some people choose to believe otherwise.

Well, maybe it's not so obviously TRUE, you know.

Originally Posted by arne saknussemm

Well, maybe it's not so obviously TRUE, you know.

What do you mean? That there are different things out there besides aspects of ourself?

Anyone sitting at their computer screen and researching on wiki has no adequate knowledge to make such claims, but these tend to be the people who do so. Anyone willing to throw such statements around, to close their mind off to any other possibility or hypotheses, shouldn't even be listened to. By making such firm statements, but not remaining willing to consider other views and possibilities, they throw away any legitimacy to their arguments and beliefs. Anyone that unscientific talking about science is just ridiculous. They’re as bad as the hard core religious or atheists or new agers that they’re always making fun of.

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

What do you mean? That there are different things out there besides aspects of ourself?

Yes, I'm saying that.

Originally Posted by arne saknussemm

Yes, I'm saying that.

Why do you think this? Do you believe dream characters to have some sort of life?

Originally Posted by Shift

Anyone sitting at their computer screen and researching on wiki has no adequate knowledge to make such claims, but these tend to be the people who do so. Anyone willing to throw such statements around, to close their mind off to any other possibility or hypotheses, shouldn't even be listened to. By making such firm statements, but not remaining willing to consider other views and possibilities, they throw away any legitimacy to their arguments and beliefs. Anyone that unscientific talking about science is just ridiculous. They’re as bad as the hard core religious or atheists or new agers that they’re always making fun of.

And how about those who can consider alternative views, and having weighed up the evidence can then dismiss them.

Can't believe you just used the "Atheists are as bad as Fundamental Religious" argument. Now that is Unscientific.

Originally Posted by arne saknussemm

If that's so obviously true, then why does someone feel the need to repeat it here every day?

Why couldn't you say it just once, if it's simply a fact?

There's such a thing as protesting too much.

Awesome, another arne saknussemm thread. This should be good for a larf.

arne, who is this mysterious someone that you are accusing?

Here is my take on the subject (quotin my post from other thread):
I also think whatever happens in a dream is simply constructs of my own mind. But I can't make up my mind about dream characters: A) They only exist when I'm dreaming they disappear when I'm awake. What they tell is my words, what they feel is my emotions and what they know is what I've acknowledged. Boundaries of their behaviour is boundaries of my mind. They can't supposedly surprise me because what they are capable of is already within me.
B) They are in my mind but they keep doing their stuff when I'm awake. They have consciousnesses of their own caused by my anatomical formations. They can reach implications that I haven't before. Therefore they can form information I haven't encountered. (New ideas in my dreams lead me to think about this one, they're not groundbreaking but still exciting to be inspired when not conscious)
C) A little bit of this, a little bit of that. (Partially A, partially B)

I can't ignore the fact that in my skull there is material needed (a healthy cortex fed/drained by veins) to create consciousness so why let it be only mine. There could be very well a little part of your brain that's activated in your REM period and runs the cognitional procceses of dream characters.

What I'm saying is there is not much difference between the real word and your thoughts in terms of neuronal conduction except for the part where you sense the stimulation. Briefly when you see a real life character it goes like:
Eye > Optic Nerve > Thalamus > Cortex > ...(depends on your reaction)
when you see a DC it follows the same pathway after Cortex. My point is existance of waking life characters is just as much dependant on your perception/senses as dream characters.

Originally Posted by moonshine

And how about those you can consider alternative views, and having weighed up the evidence can then dismiss them.

Can't believe you just used the "Atheists are as bad as Fundamental Religious" argument. Now that is Unscientific.

Atheïsts aren't Gods. They cannot know anything for certain, neither can believers. I don't really believe in God, but I wouldn't call the idea impossible either. I just don't know, and I admit that.

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

Atheïsts aren't Gods. They cannot know anything for certain, neither can believers. I don't really believe in God, but I wouldn't call the idea impossible either. I just don't know, and I admit that.

Hence why I'm agnostic.

Originally Posted by moonshine

And how about those you can consider alternative views, and having weighed up the evidence can then dismiss them.

Can't believe you just used the "Atheists are as bad as Fundamental Religious" argument. Now that is Unscientific.

Not all Atheists are like that, but it's the truth.

Originally Posted by archdreamer

Awesome, another arne saknussemm thread. This should be good for a larf.

And I'll be watching it very closely.

Arne, I don't care if you're back to talk about the idea of DC's being conscious entities, but I'd suggest you conduct yourself much better than you have in the past, or this discussion (and your remaining time here) isn't going to last very long.

Originally Posted by archdreamer

arne, who is this mysterious someone that you are accusing?

Oh, I'm sure I'm one of them.

From a logical standpoint.. what makes you think that any of your dream characters might *not* just be a figment of your mind?

If there's no reason to believe otherwise, then why the argument?

Some people believe what they want to be true, instead of the obvious truth.
I like the idea of not being the only "real" person in a dream - but I keep that for my science fiction stories. Lol.

I don't quite understand. If DC's are not products of our own minds/imaginations/brains then what are they?
Are you postulating that they lead their own lives even when the shutters are closed? Sounds like Toy Story to me.
I too am agnostic with regard to religion and always give every belief system a fair shot (because of this I have very few concrete beliefs), but I would still find it hard to believe that my DC's go on living when I wake up.

Dont under-estimate the power of our minds. DCs are just another aspect of what our brains can do

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

And I'll be watching it very closely.

Arne, I don't care if you're back to talk about the idea of DC's being conscious entities, but I'd suggest you conduct yourself much better than you have in the past, or this discussion (and your remaining time here) isn't going to last very long.

Oh, I'm sure I'm one of them.

Please do watch it closely.

^Arne, are you going to start claiming dreams don't exist or something? Honestly.

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

Atheïsts aren't Gods. They cannot know anything for certain, neither can believers. I don't really believe in God, but I wouldn't call the idea impossible either. I just don't know, and I admit that.

Its not a case of knowing anything for "certain".
Its a case of determining the balance of probability based on evidence.

For example, the evidence "for" evolution is overwhelming.
The evidence "for" an Abrahamic style GOD is, shall we say limited.

In case you haven't guessed it, I'm with Richard Dawkins.

Off topic though. Sorry.

Yes. Dream characters are figments of our imaginations.

No, dreams exist, and things happen in them. But if I were to explain it to you, it would be just a matter of my saying it, and then it's easy for anyone simply to reply, "No, it's not." So it's better for people to find out for themselves. I've told you that it can be done and that it isn't hard, which is more than enough to start you off.

Originally Posted by arne saknussemm

But if I were to explain it to you, it would be just a matter of my saying it, and then it's easy for anyone simply to reply, "No, it's not." So it's better for people to find out for themselves.

I actually entirely agree with this. I think it applies to a lot of things.

Originally Posted by arne saknussemm

Please do watch it closely.

I will, and I hope you actually promote some open discussion, and this thread isn't simply a rouse to egg people into joining your yahoo group - as were most of your previous ones.

I haven't posted a link to my group, but the fact that I've been operating such a group with more than 100 members for almost two years should make any sensible person suspect that all of this doesn't come just from me.

While you're scrutinizing things, I hope you'll notice it when people like Mad Hatter and Timothy Paradox troll me. Hatter is mad because I rebuked him for publicly posting the task that I PMed him. I'm not going to reply to trolling every time or complain about it, so I'll welcome that scrutiny.

As far as it being an "open discussion" -- I'll reply to anything that isn't of an ad hominem nature, and that at least reflects a modicum of intellectual openness.