Thread: Bring your arguments on psi HERE!

Originally posted by Placebo

When I placed it under a jar, it didn't move though. I'll see what I can come up with on that.

Noble idea, however its far harder to move it under glass. I've budged it slightly, but thats about it.
The reason seems to be a mental one... the fact that there's a barrier causes doubt and worry

[EDIT]
A possible alternative: Put the pinwheel in a container, with an open top. High enough 'walls' to prevent air movement. It's not perfect, but not bad...[/b]

...err.... why the hell should a bit of glass matter? If you are moving these things with "psychic powers" then surely gravity doesn't even come into the equation?? Therefore why does it only work on something made out of paper that can move with the slightest gust of wind, or knock of the table? Can't you move a car just as easily as you can a feather? At least it should make no difference between moving, say a pin-wheel and a pin? A pin is EXTREMELY light, but at least cannot be moved by air! (well, not as easily anyway)

Prove THAT, then tell us it's possible!

(Ps. I'm not having a go, Placebo, just asking the obvious )



also, if this is possible - doesn't it make the JEDI religion the most feasable and the only one to be even partly proven? ... think about that one!

Originally posted by White Shadow+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(White Shadow)</div>

Prove THAT, then tell us it's possible!

(Ps. I'm not having a go, Placebo, just asking the obvious )
[/b]

I was going to ignore these threads as of yesterday... but since I *sort* of like you...

<!--QuoteBegin-White Shadow
If you are moving these things with \"psychic powers\" then surely gravity doesn't even come into the equation?? Therefore why does it only work on something made out of paper that can move with the slightest gust of wind, or knock of the table? Can't you move a car just as easily as you can a feather? At least it should make no difference between moving, say a pin-wheel and a pin? A pin is EXTREMELY light, but at least cannot be moved by air! (well, not as easily anyway)

Simply because moving paper on top of a pin has a whole lot less friction than a pin on a table. Telekinesis still has to deal with known physics - IMO our thoughts on physics are generally correct, just not quite complete yet. Eg Quantum mechanics.

Anyway, despite all that, many of the guys can move toothpicks, for example, on tables
And the reason a car isn't 'as' easy is for the same reason - I can't move a large car under NORMAL circumstances. Much less with my noggin'. What makes you think it wouldn't be harder? I can't move a car with one finger and a piece of cardboard.... which is already way stronger than my telekinesis skills...

Sure... some paranormal researchers say that size, etc isn't a factor. Sounds great - but tell that to my brain then
Even if for no other reason, its at the least difficult because its *expected* to be more difficult.
Personally I believe its both physically more force required, as well as a mental block

Which brings me to the glass...

Originally posted by White Shadow+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(White Shadow)</div>

...err.... why the hell should a bit of glass matter? [/b]

Like I said - it seems to be a mental block - not unlike lucid dreaming skills.
In a lucid dream, you find things harder when they are the most unlikely.
For example - summoning things.... its easier to summon something when you arent waiting and watching for it to 'pop up'

So why is telekinesis anything like lucid dreaming? Because they both have a whole lot to do with the subconscious
The more impossible it seems, the harder it is to put aside the doubt

This is not to say that the glass is impossible - it simply means its harder
One particularly scientific friend of mine (I would even say he's a sceptic, in the general sense of the word) has got to the point where he can ONLY move it under glass
He's on a mission to learn more about it, in order to create devices that use it. Quite close to my own high hopes actually

<!--QuoteBegin-White Shadow

also, if this is possible - doesn't it make the JEDI religion the most feasable and the only one to be even partly proven? ... think about that one!

Interesting point. I hope not - because it sounds way too cheesy.
'Wow.. Im a jedi knight, because I can spin a pin wheel!'... big deal, it doesn't help society and isnt practical in any way...
Maybe one day - but I still hope its not labelled as 'jedi'...

Just another note on pinwheels: you can never be sure that it's not air moving it unless it's in a vacuum, or the temperature is absolute zero (hell, even light and invisible radiation exerts force on anything it hits, but it's usually small enough to ignore). Air is a gas after all, and it's constantly moving around, even in jars and other transparent containers.

True - that applies to liquids too.
But I previously set up a webcam to watch how the pinwheel moves in my room with all the doors closed.
The normal air movement wasn't enough to budge the pinwheel - its a decent paper one
The foil ones are quite confusing though... they budge for anything

Well, I'm open to the fact that wind could indeed be blowing the psi weel. Hell, I'm not 100% sure telekinesis is real with just a psi weel. But, I can spin it any way I wish, and its a low chance I just happen to think the same way the wind is blowing.

Wow, people get hyped up about more than just religion in here. I love it.

Originally posted by talking out of his ass@ he
The is 100% untrue. Supernatural powers have repeatedly failed the test of science an unbelievable number of times. Countless studies have shown no basis to these claims of paranormal activity.

Well if you're looking for proof and you do your research looking at it as "supernatural" then yes, you're going to find a lot of failure. Because supernatural is a word best left for fairy tales and childresn stories. In reality, it's not very supernatural at all, it's just not fully understood.

Provide proof of your countless studies, or don't use them as a basis for your debate.

I've seen countless studies proving otherwise. But it's your word against mine, so what's the point of bringing it up. See what I mean?

Telekinesis is an interesting subject, especially at the scientific level. I'm extremely interested in studying stem cell research, because it's provides a basis to one of my theories that almost everything can be manipulated through means other than physical interaction (at it's core, it still remains a form of physical interaction, just in a different way than most people perceive it).

2000 years ago, if somebody did this, they would be revered as gods, and possibly written about to such a degree that we worshipped them now a days. Done now a days, it could quite easily be given a scientify basis. Some people just haven't grown out of the cavemen mentality leading them to believe anything they can't see directly in front of them must therefore be impossible. *looks at brady*

Well, I run a website dedicated to teaching others how to be psychic (www.psipog.net), so I figured I'd add my two cents...

Instead of talking about how psi is real, and all that boring stuff everyone has already fought over, I'm going to give you a personal account of my own dealings with "skeptics".

My problem is that I was once a "skeptic". When I first read that others could do telekinesis, I thought they were insane, delusional, and should be locked up. I reacted like some people in this thread have... I was pretty harsh. I know what you guys are thinking, because I used to think the same thing. I know you see videos of things, and immediately see all the ways it could be faked, and you read things on how to do it, and it sounds retarded.

What I'm trying to say is: I understand your position. Hell, I agree with it for the most part. Except that I have *personally* had situations that have changed my mind. Obviously I can't transfer these experiences to you. Now, you are probably thinking "ok, he had some delusional experiences, big deal".

Again... I understand your position.

This is what makes me sympathetic to "skeptics" every once in a while. After all - I am claiming to do some weird things - the burden of proof is on the claimant, right?

With my website, we have a chat room. Every once in a while, a "skeptic" will come in and demand proof. Usually we just ban them, because our website isn't about "converting" people, or "prooving" anything - it's a website FOR psychics. NOT "skeptics". But, like I said, sometimes I feel a little bad, and I give it an honest shot to prove it to random "skeptics". (Please note: if you come in my chat asking for proof, you will *probably* get banned... but if you catch me in a good mood, I might do a demonstration. You have been warned.)

Anyways - sorry for dragging this on - I have tried to prove myself to a bunch of "skeptics". One kid offered me $20 for proof. I was going to do it for free, because I wanted the practice, but he insisted on involving money. So I figured - sure, what the hell. I'll take the money and put it towards the hosting bill of psipog.net. I did a demonstration where he picked a random image on the internet, and I tried to "see" the image he picked, and described it to him. I wouldn't say it was a perfect direct hit, but there was enough description to appeal to common sense that something fishy was going on. (as Placebo has pointed out... just because we can do it doesn't mean we are super-perfect-awesome-masters). Needless to say, I got him to admit that it was "weird", but he decided to leave and never send me the money.

Of course, that's what I expected... Not that I'm psychic and predicted what would happen... it's just happen to me a lot.

This is what happens: (Now I'm getting to the point ).

"Although science is not supposed to tolerate vague or double standards, always insist that unconventional phenomena must be judged by a separate, yet ill-defined, set of scientific rules. Do this by declaring that "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence"-- but take care never to define where the "ordinary" ends and the "extraordinary" begins. This will allow you to manufacture an infinitely receding evidential horizon; i.e., to define "extraordinary" evidence as that which lies just out of reach at any point in time."
( http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/scepti...ism/drasin.html )

This is EXACTLY what happens to me any time I provide proof for any "skeptic". We all agree before hand what is considered "proof", then I do what they tell me to do. Then after I succeed, they decide that all of the sudden, this thing that was air tight 15 minutes ago, is no longer air tight and isn't worthy of "proof".

I'll take the media section on PsiPog.net as another example, which you can see people talking about in this thread. A long time ago, we didn't have a media section. "Skeptics" would come in and claim that "if it's so easy, then why don't you make a video of it and post it on your website?". We figured - ok, that makes sense. So we created the media section.

The first video was the one of myself spinning the pinwheel (that you can still download at psipog.net/media.html). After that video was released, the response was amazing. All the "skeptics" suddenly went from "post any video", to "post a video under a glass". They don't recognize they make this jump, they just assume that was the qualifications earlier. So, what did we do? Now we have a video of annie spinning a pinwheel under glass. Now they make the jump "post a video under glass" to "post a video where we can see what's under the table, THEN show it under glass".

This is what I mean by a "receding evidential horizon". We have consistantly done what others have (rudely) demanded of us, only to have it thrown back in our face. It's come to a point where we physically can't host a video file of "proof", because the list of requirements is so long, the video would be too long to host.

---

Ok... I'm sorry this post is long. But here's the good news:

We can't prove it to you. No matter what we do, we can NOT prove it to you. I'm sure someone will reply to this thread with a list of requirements, and I GUARANTEE you, that if I actually fulfilled all the requirements, they would invent a new test and ignore all evidence I provided with the previous test.

The good news: You can prove it to YOURSELF. You can learn! If you do some simple exercises, you can see YOURSELF do something psychic. And that's the goal of my website. Proof of something this ground breaking can't come from an external source. So, I challenge all the "skeptics" here: don't trust me. Practice for a month, and see for yourself.

I made this same challenge to someone named "Not_Important". He called me all sorts of names, and I finally convinced him to practice and prove me wrong. He has currently written three articles on how to do telekinesis for my website, and has two media files concerning it. He was just like me... a "skeptic" who was hell bent on proving everything wrong. We never considered that it might actually be true. Once someone else convinced us to practice, and we saw results with our own eyes, it drove us to get the word out that this shit is actually REAL. And now we meet the same type of person that we used to be.

Sorry... this is long. Thanks for reading.

~Sean

Originally posted by notreallyapeebrain
Sorry... this is long. Thanks for reading.

You had me at Hello. :bravo:

Jedi? you guys mean of course a Micro Jedi or a nano Jedi

Wow incognito, that was pretty harsh.

Originally posted by incognito
2000 years ago, if somebody did this, they would be revered as gods, and possibly written about to such a degree that we worshipped them now a days. *Done now a days, it could quite easily be given a scientify basis. Some people just haven't grown out of the cavemen mentality leading them to believe anything they can't see directly in front of them must therefore be impossible.

So let me get this straight, I'm a caveman for not accepting your hearsay \"evidence\" and personal accounts but you're enlightened because you make the leap from this hearsay to assuming that \"hey, the science exsts, we just haven't discovered it yet!\"

If you read my posts in this thread carefully incognito, I never once said that the paranormal activity that you guys are describing is impossible. However, since to date these phenomena have failed the test of science repeatedly there is absolutely no reason for a belief in these phenomena. In other words, it's irrational to just pull a belief out of your ass.

If in the future, scientific evidence proves the existence of the paranormal, I'll accept it wholeheartedly. But then it won't really be paranormal anymore will it...just normal. Which brings up another kind of interesting point...if all you psychics are so sure of your abilities and believe they are backed scientifically by studies, then why is it still referred to, even by yourselves, as \"para\"normal? I think you all just want to be special.

(No, I'm not going to get into all the specific studies just to have you guys inevitably tell me that the entire scientific method is flawed and biased, but I suggest you journey over to your public library and check out The Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience)

Originally posted by incognito
Telekinesis is an interesting subject, especially at the scientific level. I'm extremely interested in studying stem cell research, because it's provides a basis to one of my theories that almost everything can be manipulated through means other than physical interaction (at it's core, it still remains a form of physical interaction, just in a different way than most people perceive it).

Interesting, I'm assuming that you don't really understand how stem cell processes work, but I'd be interested in hearing your theory anyways.

Originally posted by bradybaker
then why is it still referred to, even by yourselves, as \"para\"normal? I think you all just want to be special.

Because its not considered 'normal', yet ?
What would you like us to call it? (probably walking into an insult here...)

Originally posted by that guy
Interesting, I'm assuming that you don't really understand how stem cell processes work, but I'd be interested in hearing your theory anyways.

Actually, I don't completely. I'm not smart enough to comprehend the kind of things they do, but I read a lot about it... and the connection was so entirely loose that I can understand you thinking I was talking outta my ass on that one hahah.

I'll get to the rest of your post after my coffee's done, but I think I might've been harsh you're right, I'll try and clear that up momentarily. Misunderstandings abound, especially when you're new (yeah, I'm playing that card. It'll last me at least another day or two).

Anyways, one of the *many* things I read on stem cell research when I first looked into it was the process by which they manipulated stem cells into growing other forms of cells. It very vaguely stated something about at one of the most basic of levels that there were two diferent kinds of cells (hmmm... or something of the sort, see this is where I get sketchy haha I got more reading to do) ones that received messages and acted upon them, and others that sent those messages.

Anyways this set off a random tangent in my head that perhaps the ideas behind things like telekinesis weren't far off, just the scientific theories as to how it worked... maybe it's just a matter of somehow telling those messenger cells to do something across a given amount of space...

I think of things on a very simple level, so ideas like this run through my head all the time. I'm not formally educated so I dunno, I can't provide basis for nearly anything. I just try and learn and have crackpot ideas about how simple some things might be, when everybody else is looking for a more complex answer.

Any of that make sense?

The point I was trying to make, Placebo, is that if "abilities" such as your own have been supported scientifically as incogito suggested, then why is it still on the fringes of our society? What scientist wouldn't like to be credited with discovering ESP or Telekinesis? It would probably even earn Nobel Prize consideration.

Originally posted by him again
However, since to date these phenomena have failed the test of science repeatedly there is absolutely no reason for a belief in these phenomena. In

So what you're saying here is that... what you can't explain, can't be possible... or what you can't reduce to a simple equation, at least at this point in time, therefore must be a ridiculous notion.

Sort of like how they determined it was impossible to fly? Weak example, but it works to illustrate.

Hey, anybody ever tell ya you got a really condescending attitude towards people you disagree with? I got that much outta the conversation anyways. Sorry, I'll walk away from the personal shit now... back to the topic at hand.

been supported scientifically as incogito suggested, then why is it still on the fringes of our society[/b]

Not quite what I was intending to suggest. I was sort of attacking your method of trying to debunk all this stuff .

Everything's a theory in the end, I'm just saying that just because they haven't figured out how to explain it yet doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Originally posted by I
So what you're saying here is that... what you can't explain, can't be possible... or what you can't reduce to a simple equation, at least at this point in time, therefore must be a ridiculous notion.

Maybe someone else can explain how he got that out of my statement?

Hey, anybody ever tell ya you got a really condescending attitude towards people you disagree with?[/b]

Yeah, you too.

Everything's a theory in the end, I'm just saying that just because they haven't figured out how to explain it yet doesn't mean it isn't possible.[/b]

Agreed.

As for your stem cell theory, I'm not sure I completely understand what you're trying to say. One thing I do have say in response though is that the messages between cells are purely chemical, not magical paranormal messages.

Anyways, if your looking for other theories to modify into ESP theories, try Bell's Theorem, an aspect of quantum phsyics that Einstein more famously labelled "Spooky action at a distance".

Originally posted by Placebo
Sure... some paranormal researchers say that size, etc isn't a factor. Sounds great - but tell that to my brain then Tongue
Even if for no other reason, its at the least difficult because its *expected* to be more difficult.
Personally I believe its both physically more force required, as well as a mental block

I dont want to go to deep in to this topic, but here i want to say something.
Some paranormal researchers say that size etc isnt a factor right, well then let them move a planet.
As if any paranormal researcher knows what they are talking about more then just being observers.
To be honest placebo i dont think they know really more about it then you do yourself.
The mental block i disagree about, talent and skill is way more important then just a mental block.
Take for instance lowering your heartbeat, that demands talent and skill, and training experience.
And that is well within the range of everyones consciousness possibilities,
so its not even paranormal yet.
PPl use the word mental block way to easy and to often these days,
if they cant realize something.
Its more then a mental block that makes the difference between the average person and a skilled
and talentfull one.
They know that in the far east, the zazen master, tai chi chuan master and yogi.
They tell there pupils its takes decades of many hours a day to truly dicipline consciousness.
No mental block can change that.
Here in the west its all fast food spirituality (the paranormal included).

And suppose telekinesis would exist, then size and mass sure will mattter!

Also an important test would be to give the room the same temperature as your hand,
so u can count radiated heat out, infrared thats emitted by your hand.
Or test if an object with the same size and mass as your hand and with the same heat,
holding in the same possition as your hand normally towards the pinwheel.
and just as closeby, to see if that will make the pinwheel move!
It would be more convincing if u didnt need the hands to do it.

I dont mean this all unfriendly Placebo, but if u really want to be serious about this all
u have to take this all into account.

Good luck with your experiments!

Jeff

Originally posted by LucidApple

I dont mean this all unfriendly Placebo, but if u really want to be serious about this all
u have to take this all into account.

Good luck with your experiments!

Jeff

I'm sorry if I came across as unobjective and thoughtless as to my experiments / practice... I'm sure I've posted a few things around the site that prove otherwise.
When I first began to get success, I was incredibly sceptical - in that I didn't want to 'waste my time and hope'
I experimented on a variety of things, including the factors you mentioned - honestly...

And suppose telekinesis would exist, then size and mass sure will mattter![/b]

I agree with you. I was simply stating an external opinion, not necessarily my own.
I find it hard to accept that size and mass have no effect on telekinesis
And hard earned skill definitely has a direct effect on what is possible

Actually... I already proved that force/mass is an obstacle - in one of my experiments... accidentally I might add.
Lets just say, that the energy requierd to overcome friction (at the very least) is definitely *not* a mental block
If you want to know the details, I'll fill you in on what happened...

To be honest placebo i dont think they know really more about it then you do yourself.[/b]

Hard to say, but I wouldn't rule that possibility out
Scientists and researchers like to look good... (I wonder why hehe)

The mental block i *disagree about, talent and skill is way more important then just a mental block.[/b]

I'm still a bit undecided about this myself.
However a mental block is definitely a factor, even if its just a small one
And hard earned skill obviously counts for a lot...

Imagine going water skiing for the first time, and believing yourself to be a geek, wuss and general weakling, with no coordination. Your chances of getting it right, fast, ... is minimal
Now imagine going water skiing with confidence, and a macho sense of extreme belief in your physical learning abilities. You'll ace it way quicker than the geek persona.

In that way, doubt has at least a *small* effect on telekinesis.
Like I say, I'm undecided at exactly how strong that effect is, yet

Thanks for your respectful reply Placebo!

hmm yes a mental block sure is a factor,
i will never argue on that!

And that size and mass does matter was more to state i think the same there as you.

Can you make the pinwheel spin without using your hand,
or at what range is your hand close to the wheel?

Jeff

I'm still very much a beginner, and I started on objects floating in water rather than pinwheels. Not as convincing as eg. a pinwheel under glass, but I took the time to ensure that its not eg. water current.
At the moment, I'm practicing on the pinwheel - and while I have success in rocking it, I cannot spin it consistently (yet)

However, once I'm well into my practice session (eg. 30 mins), I'm able to rock/jiggle the pinwheel from about a 25 cm distance

BTW, just to prevent a post arguing about this again, I created a video of the pinwheel in that same room. It doesn't rock or jiggle ...
I've had others try the same experiment, only to fail, and I usually ensure that I've decharged myself of any static first (on bathroom taps)
In addition, I try to keep my hands still while doing it, in order to prevent a variety of effects, like static/magnetism/air movement.
I also wear a cloth around my mouth...

I also did not post my 'telekinesis status' in order to 'prove' or 'convince' anyone of anything... so keep the blows low please

Yes it all sounds good and your attitude towards it also.
25 cm is a nice distance...thats not like 2 or 3 cm.

I apologize if i came a bit strong up on you.
Wasnt ment mean.

A video would be interesing, but dont feel forced.
You dont have to proof to me anything, would be more out
of curiousity.

Jeff

No apology necessary

I don't feel comfortable with how my skill on this pinwheel yet... I'd like it to be a bit more skillful first.
I have an old video of the toothpick.. but I'd like to try make a newer one. My distance has improved a lot
I'll see what I can do with the toothpick, but you'll have to wait on the pinwheel a bit longer

Originally posted by Placebo+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Placebo)</div>

No apology necessary [/b]

What's going on? You're becoming too amicable in your responses! It was starting to get interesting when bradybaker and incognito were relaying their bitchy remarks !

Anyway...
<!--QuoteBegin-Bitch no.1 (bradybaker)
Anyways, if your looking for other theories to modify into ESP theories, try Bell's Theorem, an aspect of quantum physics that Einstein more famously labelled \"Spooky action at a distance\".

Are you talking about the 'EPR experiment' where a molecule explodes into two identical parts that can possibly communicate instantaneously (ie faster than light - throwing Einstein's theories out the window), which went on to the first successful act of teleportation?

Originally posted by Placebo
I also did not post my 'telekinesis status' in order to 'prove' or 'convince' anyone of anything... so keep the blows low please

For some people, that could get interpreted as "please be extremely rude". damn those subtle differences between american-english and english english.

Np Placebo, i have the patience of time itself!

White shadow, that is because Placebo and i have high respect for eachother,
and thats a good thing.

Jeff