Thread: Bring your arguments on psi HERE!

Originally posted by guyguyguy
Anyways, if your looking for other theories to modify into ESP theories, try Bell's Theorem, an aspect of quantum phsyics that Einstein more famously labelled \"Spooky action at a distance\".

Thanks, and hey... sorry. I put my foot in my mouth alot. I'm going to try and learn more about what I'm talking about before I start talking about it, but I wasn't intending to imply the messages between those cells were some magical force to be played with - merely that... I mean when you think, you send messages from your brain to various parts of your body to do things... why not be able to send these messages to things outside your body, because everything between you and said object has a cellular level that interprets messages of one kind or another anyways right... simplistic, I know but simplicity works for simple people.

I'm going to go read up on that bells theorem now and come back to this later.

Originally posted by peebrain


This is what happens: *(Now I'm getting to the point ).

\"Although science is not supposed to tolerate vague or double standards, always insist that unconventional phenomena must be judged by a separate, yet ill-defined, set of scientific rules. Do this by declaring that \"extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence\"-- but take care never to define where the \"ordinary\" ends and the \"extraordinary\" begins. This will allow you to manufacture an infinitely receding evidential horizon; i.e., to define \"extraordinary\" evidence as that which lies just out of reach at any point in time.\"
( http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/scepti...ism/drasin.html )

This is EXACTLY what happens to me any time I provide proof for any \"skeptic\". *We all agree before hand what is considered \"proof\", then I do what they tell me to do. *Then after I succeed, they decide that all of the sudden, this thing that was air tight 15 minutes ago, is no longer air tight and isn't worthy of \"proof\".

I'll take the media section on PsiPog.net as another example, which you can see people talking about in this thread. *A long time ago, we didn't have a media section. *\"Skeptics\" would come in and claim that \"if it's so easy, then why don't you make a video of it and post it on your website?\". *We figured - ok, that makes sense. *So we created the media section.

The first video was the one of myself spinning the pinwheel (that you can still download at psipog.net/media.html). *After that video was released, the response was amazing. *All the \"skeptics\" suddenly went from \"post any video\", to \"post a video under a glass\". *They don't recognize they make this jump, they just assume that was the qualifications earlier. *So, what did we do? *Now we have a video of annie spinning a pinwheel under glass. *Now they make the jump \"post a video under glass\" to \"post a video where we can see what's under the table, THEN show it under glass\".

This is what I mean by a \"receding evidential horizon\". *We have consistantly done what others have (rudely) demanded of us, only to have it thrown back in our face. *It's come to a point where we physically can't host a video file of \"proof\", because the list of requirements is so long, the video would be too long to host.

---

Ok... I'm sorry this post is long. *But here's the good news:

We can't prove it to you. *No matter what we do, we can NOT prove it to you. *I'm sure someone will reply to this thread with a list of requirements, and I GUARANTEE you, that if I actually fulfilled all the requirements, they would invent a new test and ignore all evidence I provided with the previous test.

The good news: You can prove it to YOURSELF. *You can learn! *If you do some simple exercises, you can see YOURSELF do something psychic. *And that's the goal of my website. *Proof of something this ground breaking can't come from an external source. *So, I challenge all the \"skeptics\" here: don't trust me. *Practice for a month, and see for yourself.

I made this same challenge to someone named \"Not_Important\". *He called me all sorts of names, and I finally convinced him to practice and prove me wrong. *He has currently written three articles on how to do telekinesis for my website, and has two media files concerning it. *He was just like me... a \"skeptic\" who was hell bent on proving everything wrong. *We never considered that it might actually be true. *Once someone else convinced us to practice, and we saw results with our own eyes, it drove us to get the word out that this shit is actually REAL. *And now we meet the same type of person that we used to be.

Sorry... this is long. *Thanks for reading.

~Sean

This happens to me A LOT. I made the mistake of telling some people about what I was practicing a while back, and they would bother me all day. "Move this!" or "Lift up this book!".

Then the more ignerant ones who had no idea what telekinesis was, would bother me about telekinesis also, but they would yell things like "Send me a message with telekinesis (lolololol )".

So I showed them the psi weel, and I managed to convince two guys that telekinesis is real. I'm teaching them now.

But for the ones who did not except it, they made more and more excuses, like I was blowing the pin weel, or shaking the table, even though they were watching me very carefully.

They asked me to spin it over and over again...

One of the biggest "skeptics" in the group went around telling people I told him I was blowing it...

This is much easier to say then to do, but skeptics, give some slack on people who claim to posses telekinetic powers, its much more different then what media subjects it to be.

But I guess I shouldn't have told these people... bad idea...

They will keep on bothering me, and when I can do something that they could not deney. And when I show them that, know wondering on what they will do... lol

Originally posted by Placebo+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Placebo)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-LucidApple

A video would be interesing, but dont feel forced.
You dont have to proof to me anything, would be more out
of curiousity.

Jeff

I don't feel comfortable with how my skill on this pinwheel yet... I'd like it to be a bit more skillful first.
I have an old video of the toothpick.. but I'd like to try make a newer one. My distance has improved a lot
I'll see what I can do with the toothpick, but you'll have to wait on the pinwheel a bit longer
[/b]

Jeff - my webcam has gone on holiday, so I can't do a vid for you until it comes back
In the meantime, heres an old modest vid of the water-floating toothpick. Its not nearly as convincing as I intended, but its better than nothing for now
I know its not proof

BTW, I've managed to move onto pushing straws that are balanced on a plastic cylinder - quite a jump, relatively
I hope to get a video of it as soon as I can, but honestly I need some practice on it first. Today was the first day I managed it.

I sat there downloading it slowly (56k dosen't like things like 2.1MB), just to see it. I'm very glad that I did now, that movie was of a decent length.

The little pick thing you had in the bowl - I can't tell from the quality of the movie. Was it even in water? And why are you wearing a miami type forest shirt thing?

Just a quick question. If telepathy is real, why hasn't some clever psychic won a couple hundred million dollars in the lottery?

And I know what you'll say..."You can't use psychic powers to benefit yourself!!!!"

But then I ask...why haven't they won a couple hundred million dollars and donated it to charity?

Originally posted by Kaniaz+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kaniaz)</div>

I sat there downloading it slowly (56k dosen't like things like 2.1MB), just to see it. I'm very glad that I did now, that movie was of a decent length.

The little pick thing you had in the bowl - I can't tell from the quality of the movie. Was it even in water? And why are you wearing a miami type forest shirt thing? [/b]

Yes, it was in water. And I like forest shirt things

<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker
And I know what you'll say...\"You can't use psychic powers to benefit yourself!!!!\"

No, actually that wouldn't be my answer. I consider that to be bull, just as you do.
My real answer is 'I don't know', but my best guess is that nobody can do it in any level of practical way
I believe theres something to it, but that doesn't make it easily replicable and practical
Right now, for all intents and purposes - its useless. That doesn't mean its not worth pursuing if its of interest

Originally posted by bradybaker
Just a quick question. If telepathy is real, why hasn't some clever psychic won a couple hundred million dollars in the lottery?

Telepathy really wouldn't help with a lottery... You might be thinking of precognition. Lottery numbers are very hard to pick up on because they are so... conceptual. If that makes sense. For example, it's much easier to pick up on something that actually has meaning to it, and exists in the real world. A number is just a constructed device used by humans, so it's a little trickier. But, for the record, I did try to win the lottery for a few weeks, and did horriable .

But that doesn't stop us from winning money. With empathy and telepathy, winning poker games is very easy. It's very easy to read the people you're playing against, and bet accordingly. My one friend plays Texas Hold'em all the time, and has made a lot of money with the help of psionics. I've played Texas Hold'em with my friends a few times, and always end up winning... except my pot is usually a bag of pennies . I don't get into serious games like my friend does. Maybe I'll start to?

I think people who are doing tk and people who are psychic are very different. Yes they all fall under paranormal. Just because I believe in tk does not mean I believe in aliens. Moving things with your mind, energy, aura, chakra's what ever.. does not mean u are psychic.
I have seen Placebo move objects. I have moved small objects. There is something out there and I am just staying open minded.

then you should really really visit randi.

Originally posted by peebrain+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(peebrain)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker

Just a quick question. If telepathy is real, why hasn't some clever psychic won a couple hundred million dollars in the lottery?

Telepathy really wouldn't help with a lottery... You might be thinking of precognition. Lottery numbers are very hard to pick up on because they are so... conceptual. If that makes sense. For example, it's much easier to pick up on something that actually has meaning to it, and exists in the real world. A number is just a constructed device used by humans, so it's a little trickier. But, for the record, I did try to win the lottery for a few weeks, and did horriable .[/b]

In that case, why haven't people who claim to have precognitive abilites won the lottery?

Like I said... numbers are a little different than normal everyday objects. That doesn't stop people from trying (and succeeding), it's just a little harder.

Check these sites out for more information. They use RV to remote view into the future. There's another site about the stock market too, but I forget what it's URL is. Google.com is your friend, if you're seriously interested.
http://www.psitech.net/
http://www.grillflame.com/

Yeah, a little harder, but I suppose not impossible. And I'm sure there have been tons of people trying to get those lottery numbers right - and if they have got them right (which I'm afraid I doubt), then we would of heard about it. It's hard to resist bragging about winning the lottery with just your mind, or whatever medium you chose to get those numbers right with. When you think how long the lotter(ies) have been round, somebody should of got it by now. And we should of heard about it.

I mean, if I got all the numbers bang on and won myself $7 million, I'd have trouble keeping the fact I won it by these powers of mine. And the press are always too happy to leap on things like this. (Imagine the headline: LOTTERY PSYHIC REVEALS ALL), or something else overbloated.

The fact it might/is harder to get those numbers right shouldn't be a problem. I am pretty sure that we've all at least tried to call upon some mystical power to get those numbers right at least once.

I think the problem with prooving psi to anyone else is because everyone has a negetive energy towards it. Logic says it's not possible, yet still a handful of people believe it. Why? Some are just creative minded and need something exciting to think about, others actually want to make sense of it. But until someone prooves the amazing powers of psi, the world will continue to deny it.

Powers of psi are gathered from
1)yourself
2)things and people around you

If someone doesn't believe you can do it, they make a resistance. This is just my personal opinion, think of it as how you like.

Originally posted by Kaniaz
Yeah, a little harder, but I suppose not impossible. And I'm sure there have been tons of people trying to get those lottery numbers right - and if they have got them right (which I'm afraid I doubt), then we would of heard about it. It's hard to resist bragging about winning the lottery with just your mind, or whatever medium you chose to get those numbers right with. When you think how long the lotter(ies) have been round, somebody should of got it by now. And we should of heard about it.

I mean, if I got all the numbers bang on and won myself $7 million, I'd have trouble keeping the fact I won it by these powers of mine. And the press are always too happy to leap on things like this. (Imagine the headline: LOTTERY PSYHIC REVEALS ALL), or something else overbloated.

The fact it might/is harder to get those numbers right shouldn't be a problem. I am pretty sure that we've all at least tried to call upon some mystical power to get those numbers right at least once.

You really are assuming QUITE a bit. I normally don't get into discussions like this... for this very reason.

Let me walk through it for you:

I am claiming that it is possible for people to predict the lottery.

You have taken this to mean: There are "tons of people" out there who could win the 7 million dollars in the lottery. If tons of people could win 7 million dollars, then at least ONE would do it by now. If one person won 7 million dollars in the lottery, they would brag about using their psychic abilities. If this happened, then it would be all over the news. And I would know about it. Since I've never heard of this happening, that means that people cannot win the lottery using psychic skills.

What an enormous list of assumptions. You list one condition after another, and at the end say "if all that happened, I would know about it. Since I don't know about it, no one can win the lottery using psychic skills". Most precognition is in the form of dreams, and most people who precog events do not have control over what they precog. They have a dream one night, and it turns out to be true. They can't go in and say "ok, tonight I want to precog the lottery numbers".

Remote Viewing into the future is more applicable to predicting the lottery - I'm sorry I didn't mention it at first... I didn't think this would turn into a huge discussion. I was only trying to comment on the fact that telepathy is the wrong label for what you described... telepathy is communicating between two minds psychically. If you're interested in what Remote Viewing is capable of doing, try visiting psitech.net , or firedocs.com/remoteviewing . The thing that is cool is that YOU can learn to do it. I think you're too close minded to even consider the fact that you could learn this, and see results yourself. *shrugs* I'm not really here to argue about the "what ifs" when I've done it personally, and seen it in action. I know it exists... if you have some fabricated barrier of assumptions that keeps you comfortable and unwilling to try it, then so be it.

Originally posted by peebrain+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(peebrain)</div>

You really are assuming QUITE a bit. I normally don't get into discussions like this... for this very reason.[/b]

If you get uncomfortable with this arguing at any point just say and I'll lay off you, I understand.

Originally posted by peebrain@
Let me walk through it for you:

I am claiming that it is possible for people to predict the lottery.

Yep, and that it's harder than other things because they're numbers or something.

<!--QuoteBegin-peebrain

You have taken this to mean: There are \"tons of people\" out there who could win the 7 million dollars in the lottery. If tons of people could win 7 million dollars, then at least ONE would do it by now. If one person won 7 million dollars in the lottery, they would brag about using their psychic abilities. If this happened, then it would be all over the news. And I would know about it. Since I've never heard of this happening, that means that people cannot win the lottery using psychic skills.

Pay attention. I said if they used/attempted to use psyhic powers, not if they just won plain out. There are plenty of people who just win the lottery by sheer luck, and none of them brag about using psyhic powers because they didn't.

Originally posted by peebrain+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(peebrain)</div>

What an enormous list of assumptions. [/b]

I don't see a list. Please make a list of these assumptions. I understand that there are some in there, because I'm not going to make a 3 million word long essay on every single possible scenario that could appear. You seem to be talking as if every other word in there is an assumption, but I don't think so.

<!--QuoteBegin-peebrain

You list one condition after another, and at the end say \"if all that happened, I would know about it. Since I don't know about it, no one can win the lottery using psychic skills\".

Originally posted by Khronos
I think the problem with prooving psi to anyone else is because everyone has a negetive energy towards it. Logic says it's not possible, yet still a handful of people believe it. Why? Some are just creative minded and need something exciting to think about, others actually want to make sense of it. But until someone prooves the amazing powers of psi, the world will continue to deny it.

Correct. I'd like to add [with as little pain as possible to people here] that there are some people that just like to think "they're special".

This argument is pointless... You can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't change what I've seen. And you think I'm delusional, or lieing, so you don't really give two shits about what I've seen. You refuse to try it out until someone proves it with unrealistic conditions. To me, that says you really don't want anyone to prove anything. You just want to continue believing what you do, and maybe have some smug satisfaction that you really showed that fake psychic on a message board who was boss.

What I'm saying is: all that logic and theory stuff that you're talking about doesn't really mean shit when you see it yourself. All of the sudden you stop thinking of all the ways it shouldn't work, and start thinking "well... that's weird... how the hell does THAT work?". So, if you swallow your pride for a month and do some honest practice - and you don't even have to tell anyone about it if you're too embarassed - you might get some really weird results that you can't ignore.

I know how cold readings work. I know how magic tricks work. I know how people see what they want to see, and delude themselves. I know statistics. I know how to confirm my results to see if what I was doing was legitimate, or has some other "normal" explaination.

And I also know that no matter what logical argument I bring to you, you're going to wiggle out of it, and you'll keep thinking whatever you want to think and never really give it a chance. And you know that whatever logical argument you bring to me, I'm going to wiggle out of it, and I'll keep believing what I want to believe, because logical arguments are pointless when I've seen so much physical evidence myself.

Nice.

Okay, this is for Jeff/LucidApple. And anyone who cares to look.
I created videos of 3 separate consecutive attempts to move a straw
The raw versions are completely uncut, but are way more boring to watch
I provide them for anyone wanting to look more closely, or maybe look for strings

Raw/Uncut
Raw Uncut 7 Dec 2004 - #1 of 3
Raw Uncut 7 Dec 2004 - #2 of 3
Raw Uncut 7 Dec 2004 - #3 of 3

Enjoy

PS: Once again, this isn't 'proof'. I'm *not* going to re-do it with eg. a little peek under the table, and on the roof, in the attic, garden and into my neighbours flat
PPS: If you believe that I'm honest, that should say enough. Most of you know me for a while now. I give you my word that this is *not* fake in any way. Hell - I'd have to be stupid to fake it.

Yeah, I trust you enough not to fake things (you wouldn't exactly gain much), but you could unwittingly be doing it via heat or something. I'm no scientist, and since you're about 1,000 miles away nobody can hardly draw any conclusion anyway...

Originally posted by Kaniaz
Yeah, I trust you enough not to fake things (you wouldn't exactly gain much), but you could unwittingly be doing it via heat or something. I'm no scientist, and since you're about 1,000 miles away nobody can hardly draw any conclusion anyway...

You're welcome to have a crack at some suggestions of what it might be. After all, thats what I'm attempting to do myself
Heat is certainly not one of them, if you watch the videos

hmm nice video Placebo, finally someone that makes a video here about psi stuff!
And yes i trust you to be honest!

Thanks for the video!

I also agree with Kaniaz, but thats also a compliment placebo, not only from me
but also from kaniaz i guess, because it means i/we find your video worth a science research study!
And from most ppl i would say mm it just fake so why even do a science research study on it.

Good work!

I would go to a univeristy, parapsycholgy department and then ask if they could
do research on it....if its valid then go to randi also!

My respect, jeff

I would defintely be intrested to watch you myself, but since you're in South Africa that's neer impossible (hi mom, can i go on a flight to south africa to see a man move a toothpick?).

We need a Dreamviews con or something, with icedawg cakes and shit. Ahem.

Well thanks for the feedback, both of you

I would go to a univeristy, parapsycholgy department and then ask if they could
do research on it....if its valid then go to randi also! [/b]

The problem with randi, is that he has no real intention of letting go of his money. He has way too many loopholes built into that system.
But once I've got some better control, I'll seriously consider the university idea - Thanks

hi mom, can i go on a flight to south africa to see a man move a toothpick?[/b]

Leave out the toothpick part, and just tell her its to broaden your horizon
Nah, seriously though... I'm not the only person who's serious about this and can do it
Over the last 2 months, I've got a pretty good idea who are some reliable TKers overseas
And they're in both europe and USA

The biggest question is whether they want to have you watch them

We need a Dreamviews con or something, with icedawg cakes and shit. Ahem.[/b]

Whats a 'DreamViews con' ?

I wouldn't want to let go of a million dollars either (who would?) but then again, if he loopholes something, you can just lawsuit him for alsorts - fraud, inhibiting research into psi, your loss of a million dollars goddamnit. Although I'd urge you to contact him, would be nice for somebody at Dreamviews to have an account of some contact with Randi. I understand the guy is a bit, er, rude, but that's something that we can't change. If he's rude, oh well. Win the million dollars and he'll shut up. Apparently if you fill out all the forms and crap, and you don't look like a nutcase, they perform the preliminary test at your place (an affiliate of the JREF does). Nobody's passed those tests so far, so if you do then applause...

But I'm rambling a bit. a "con" is basically a get together of a bunch of people. A Dreamviews con would be the members of Dreamviews meeting at say, some place in America. Not unlike when Seeker, Jeff, CT and Lucius met up, I guess.