What does the blind man see?

[xSuper_Sadistx]

The other night while I was thinking about everything i've read on astral projection, a question came to my mind. Of course this question goes out to those of you who believe in this sort of thing. If a blind man were to astral project, what would he see?

[starry eyes]

The other night while I was thinking about everything i've read on astral projection, a question came to my mind. Of course this question goes out to those of you who believe in this sort of thing. If a blind man were to astral project, what would he see? The question seemed worthy of at least a few minutes of online research, so I checked. There were numerous sources who mentioned in passing that those born blind can see during astral projection, though no particular cases were given. There was more in-depth information for cases of near death experiencers, born blind but who saw during their experience, because NDE researchers have documented them. If we suppose that NDEs and APs are real, and forget about debates for a while, it would seem pretty likely that the two experiences are probably similar in both being caused by one's soul having left the body. If they can see during NDEs, then why not during APs?

[IndigoGhost]

[DreamQueen]

^ Are you suggesting he'd see a black cat in a coal cellar at midnight?

[LucidFlanders]

I doubt that, if he was born blind he wont even see black. He would see nothing.

[Specialis Sapientia]

There would be no difference in the visual perception of a blind man or you when out of the body. LucidFlanders, are you sure they don't see black, how is it possible to see nothing ? I haven't really solved that question, maybe someone know what a blind man "sees". ?

[IndigoGhost]

Maybe someone know what a blind man "sees". ? A blind man sees nothing, But hears everything.

[DreamQueen]

LucidFlanders, are you sure they don't see black, how is it possible to see nothing ? I haven't really solved that question, maybe someone know what a blind man "sees". ? The best way to imagine it IMO is to think about what you are seeing out of your fingertips right now. It's certainly not black. It's nothing. HTHs

[Atras]

The other night while I was thinking about everything i've read on astral projection, a question came to my mind. Of course this question goes out to those of you who believe in this sort of thing. If a blind man were to astral project, what would he see? YEs he would see in an astral projection. The reason for this is, blindness is caused when the nerve bundles that send signals to the brain in the eye are somehow disrupted, this causes the brain not to get signals from the eye. If the brain doesnt get signals from the eye it cant create an image of what the eye is seeing, therefore the person sees nothing. The reason why a blind person in astral projection can see is that astral projection is your spirit body. The blindness is on a physical plane and affects your physical body. Since your astral body doesnt have eyes and a brain like your physical body does it would be impossible for your "Physical" blindness to affect your astral body. Hope that helped!

[DreamQueen]

Wow! It's amazing how your astral body can see without eyes or a brain! It's also amazing how you know all this, Atras. I wonder if anyone has ever thought to tell blind people about astral projection? Just think, people who have been blind since birth would be able to find out what it is like to be able to see. One would presume that there would already be people who have been blind since birth who are astrally projecting on a regular basis. Hmmm, I've never read in any newspaper or seen any documentaries about blind people who are doing this. I wonder why that is??

[Xetrov]

There is actually some research done on the subject of NDE and blind people being able to see there. A certain Dr. Ken Ring and Sharon Cooper wrote a book about their results called "Mindsight". I used to browse a website that seems no longer online but I found it in cache in Google anyway, check this: http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:...=nl&lr=lang_en Im pretty sure if you google on this book and their authors, you might find more. Im not saying here this is die-hard evidence but for sure it is quite interesting.

[spaceexplorer]

I find this whole thread incredibly insensitive to the disabled. There is currently millions being invested in technologys, such as retinal implants, to help the blind gain some kind of basic vision. This work is incredibly complex and not without its dangers. Now, if astral travel were able to provide the blind with sight, would there not be hundreds of scientists, and millions of pounds from medical labs being invested into harnessing this power? Rather than one book, by two unknowns? And if thier evidence is so compelling, why are they still such unknowns? Also, if were're going to be talking senses here, there are a lot of senses that fully able human adults don't have access to, such as the ability to see/hear sonar. Other mamals (such as bats) can do this, so why is it that in the astral plane, humans don't suddenly have the ability to sense sonar? If you think about it, this is much the same as saing a blind person would be able to see. Why is it that the astral body, seems to have the same basic biological limitations as the physical body? Not wanting to be funny or anything, but if you found yourself chronically blind, something that would effect every element of your life, for the rest of your life.. and there was something, ANYTHING, that gave you a slim hope of being able to see... Don't you think you'd be trying it? So where are the news stories of the hundreds if not thousands of blind people discovering astral vision? There are none. There is one book, by unknowns.... oh and it's SELF PUBLISHED (meaning no publisher would take it on, so they went to a website that prints books on demand when someone makes an order.) So these great scientists couldn't even find a publisher to print thier work! This thread insults the intelligence of the blind. Do you not think they'd have thought of this themselves? Tell you what, go talk about this with the next blind person you meet "oh why arn't you seeing astrally?" and see how long it takes for them to tell you to go &$^&$ yourself!! I'm sure the original poster didn't mean to offend, but this subject is pushing the limits here.

[spaceexplorer]

YEs he would see in an astral projection. The reason for this is, blindness is caused when the nerve bundles that send signals to the brain in the eye are somehow disrupted, this causes the brain not to get signals from the eye. If the brain doesnt get signals from the eye it cant create an image of what the eye is seeing, therefore the person sees nothing. The reason why a blind person in astral projection can see is that astral projection is your spirit body. The blindness is on a physical plane and affects your physical body. Since your astral body doesnt have eyes and a brain like your physical body does it would be impossible for your "Physical" blindness to affect your astral body. Hope that helped! So why exactly do we have a physical brain and physical eyes then? Seems pointless to have evolved eyes, if we have perfectly working astral eyes already. The whole idea is full of holes.

[Specialis Sapientia]

Wow! It's amazing how your astral body can see without eyes or a brain! It's also amazing how you know all this, Atras. I wonder if anyone has ever thought to tell blind people about astral projection? Just think, people who have been blind since birth would be able to find out what it is like to be able to see. One would presume that there would already be people who have been blind since birth who are astrally projecting on a regular basis. Hmmm, I've never read in any newspaper or seen any documentaries about blind people who are doing this. I wonder why that is?? Yes, yes and yes. To your last question (I know you love statisitcs) 0.6% of the worlds population are blind. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/.../2003/pr73/en/ http://www99.wolframalpha.com/input/...ion+people*100 "The majority of blindness – an estimated 90 per cent - occurs in developing countrie" That means 0.06% of the industrialized population are blind. 17 % of all blind people are born that way, 10 % in industrialized countries http://www.who.int/bulletin/archives/79(3)227.pdf We are now at 0.006% of the industrialzed population who were born blind. Have been people are able to Astral Project on regular basis? My guess is 1 to 10,000 are able to Astral project on regular basis. This give 6.891x10^-7 born blind people in industrialized are able to Astral Project on regular basis. That is 0.000006891 % of the population That gives us 21.07 people only in USA. http://www51.wolframalpha.com/input/...USA+population I said 1 to 10,000 are able to Astral Project on regular basis, but even 1 astral projection (NDE and OOBE included) is enough to show whether a blind person can see or not. I estimate that there are 100 times more people that have experienced an AP,NDE or OBE once or more than on regular basis. So around 21.07*100 = 2107 blind people in the whole USA should have seen in that out of body experience. Such a rare thing would the scientific community never even touch to. There probably is some "newspaper" with an article about this, but don't expect it to be mainstream, and yes there have been made documentaries about NDE and such, and I have myself seen and interview and description of a born blind woman being able to see in a NDE, she described the experience. One of documentaries was made by BBC. I bring you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9CDCZLRL9g ! Start at 2:50.. (The rest of the documentary is great btw) ... ... ... And if thier evidence is so compelling, why are they still such unknowns? Sorry, but a blind born individual who comes to another person (Not relative) and tell that he able to see, when he was out of his body, will probably get shuned. And with the near impossibility of reproducing the event again, it can be thrown into the garbadge by most scientist. It is subjectivity at the most extreme, you should know that we don't call it evidence. So why exactly do we have a physical brain and physical eyes then? Seems pointless to have evolved eyes, if we have perfectly working astral eyes already. The whole idea is full of holes. We have a physical brain and eyes because we are living in THIS physical reality, we can't go against natural laws, and thus we are a part of it.

[spaceexplorer]

Yes, yes and yes. We have a physical brain and eyes because we are living in THIS physical reality, we can't go against natural laws, and thus we are a part of it. So, um... astral travelling isnt going against natural laws? Blind people seeing through astral eyes isnt going against natural laws? Hmm, that's a new one to me. I still think this is really offensive to the blind. Just one point on that video, if she has NEVER seen, how would she know what, light, birds, trees and people are? It takes months for babies to develop basic visual understanding. Sounds to me like people she has spoken to after the event, tried to pin terms and sense to the experience. I'm certainly not saying she is lying, but people with the best intentions can at times distort and manipulate others experiences whilst trying to be helpful. I think a more plausable experience is that her mind was in extreme trauma, certain neurochemicals were released - perhaps DMT. Her long dormant visual cortex was activated, and she experienced random visual experiences, not based on memories, but none the less vivid (anyone who has taken DMT can understand this)... then her friends, family etc. probably tried to interpret these experiences into thier own world views... being American, it is highly likely at least some of her friends are religious, and already believe in life after death. They would be doing what they felt was the "right thing" in helping her understand her experience, but in reality woudl actually be distorting the memories and facts of the situations. For example... Maybe she said she saw "complex dark shapes" and her family said "oh they were probably trees outside the building" and thus it stuck. Just a theory, but, seems more likely.

[DreamQueen]

Such a rare thing would the scientific community never even touch to. There probably is some "newspaper" with an article about this, but don't expect it to be mainstream, and yes there have been made documentaries about NDE and such, and I have myself seen and interview and description of a born blind woman being able to see in a NDE, she described the experience. One of documentaries was made by BBC. I bring you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9CDCZLRL9g ! Start at 2:50.. (The rest of the documentary is great btw) I watched this video. It reminds me of the book "Hello from Heaven" that I read a few years ago when someone I loved was killed in a tragic accident and I was searching for confirmation for life after death. The book is full of stories about people receiving visits from deceased friends and relatives. Unfortunately, the book didn't convince me in the slightest as there were obvious flaws in many of the stories. It seemed more likely that people just want to have a story to tell that makes them 'special' and gains them attention having experienced something really interesting. As for the video of the blind woman... her story is mystifying. Not so much as to how she was allegedly able to see, but more how she was able to report that she saw "trees" and "birds" and "light" when she would not know what these things were and would have no way of confirming what she saw with sighted people upon awakening. The documentary may seem convincing with all the microscopes and men in white coats but sorry, I just don't believe it. There was a program on TV here about mediums who after being shown a photo of a murder victim would apparently then be able to lead the police to exactly where the body had been found. I remember everyone talking about this in amazement in the tea room at work. That is until I pointed out that no medium had EVER lead the police to a murder victim's body which had not yet been found. Everyone fell silent as soon as I said it. The whole program which had had them convinced that communication beyond the grave was taking place had been completely debunked just like that.

[Specialis Sapientia]

So, um... astral travelling isnt going against natural laws? Blind people seeing through astral eyes isnt going against natural laws? Hmm, that's a new one to me. Natural laws, as in natural laws of THIS universe and reality frame. Just one point on that video, if she has NEVER seen, how would she know what, light, birds, trees and people are? It takes months for babies to develop basic visual understanding. Sounds to me like people she has spoken to after the event, tried to pin terms and sense to the experience. You can't compare a babies brain to an adults. She have had the sense of hearing, touch, smell and taste. She have learned to (as blind do) to identify things with those senses. When she was above her body, he recognized her wedding ring and hair, she is very familiar with them, so it would be easy to comparer the visual to the tactile mental image, the shapes and such. If she touch a 6 sided dice as blind, examine the object carefully, she can feel the holes in the side, 1 dot on that side, 2 dots on that side etc. and then we she sees a small cubic, with black dots around she can remember the object she hold in hear hand. She also state that she could bring forth knowledge. She had hear hearing, as she flew she could hear the wind and such, and probably bird screech too, when she sees something small fly in the skies, she probably knows it's a bird, what else should it be? Nevertheless she does not have to devolop any visual processing, she is not using her brain when out of body, the brains function and neural nature is not involved when you have no body.

[spaceexplorer]

the brains function and neural nature is not involved when you have no body. So would you be kind enough to explain, how you think information completely alien and distinct from brain function and neural processing... gets from being "out of the body".. to in the brain? How does an experience gathered on a non physical plane, become a memory in a physical brain?

[Specialis Sapientia]

So would you be kind enough to explain, how you think information completely alien and distinct from brain function and neural processing... gets from being "out of the body".. to in the brain? How does an experience gathered on a non physical plane, become a memory in a physical brain? I wouldn't say that the information is completely alien and distinct from the brain function and neural proccesing. We are still having our five senses out of body, but the the information that is processed by you are not very different whether you are in this reality frame or another. Let's imagine that it is possible to see a whole new colour when you are somewhere else when out of body, there would not be any difficulty to see it, but if we got back to our body our brain would not comprehend the data from the experience, we would not be able to use our memory of that colour because the "stream of consciounsess" is processed by the brain. Now, memory is something not very tangible. Let's imagine that the window glass is the proces of information, the outside light shining in is the data stream. The inside room is the mind, and the blinds can we call the brain. Right now, the sun is shining through the glass, we are getting external sensory input, though the sensory input is limited by the brain and our body (the blinds). So what comes into the mind is a limited perception of what there is. If I were to go out of body and astral project to another whole reality frame, another sun would shine at me, with a different wavelenght (Different input for sensorics) but it would still be light! (Information as bits). At this point the blinds have been removed, the information don't have to go through the filter called brain, you are just percieving information as pure consciosness. When we are back in our brain we can try to access the memory, some of it would probably be limited by the brain, either because it's forgotten as we always do, we can't comprehend it, various other reasons like psychological, e.g. an extremely intense experienced could be suppressed. But again both our short - and longterm memory is not perfect. We don't remember dreams very well do we? Also consider that if one went out of body and were alive, he would still be "connected" to his body, or else he would die. The most important point is that the only fundemental (foundation of reality) thing is conscionsness.

[spaceexplorer]

It's an interesting theory, and i appreciate the angle you are coming from. Certainly there are interesting things happening in science, especially quantum physics, that imply that consciousness has an impact on the observed. However (and unfortunatly it's a big however) you say: We are still having our five senses out of body, but the the information that is processed by you are not very different whether you are in this reality frame or another. Say for example you are right and that the information processed is the same, only unfiltered. Why then, if consciousness is the foundation of reality, why did bodies, species, eyes, noses, ears etc. evolve? If consciousness can exist without these things, if in fact the sense of smell exists in some astral information plane... then why would a nose evolve? Why have a body? Normally the argument is: Because we have to live on the physical plane, but the astral plane is seperate. But if like you say, the information is the same... then why bother? Also, there are other elements... if say your body is colour blind.. will your astral body be colour blind? If not, then why would the brain filter out information it could have access to via the astral? why would it favour a limited view over a comprehensive view? Why be born blind? if you don't need to be? Where does the brain come into the picture? Why does there need to be a brain? Also, if the foundation of reality is consciousness... does that mean all things are aware? is a rock, an orange, a slice of orange, an orange pip have awareness? Why then did life evolve? Whats the point in evolution and sentient animals if the foundation of reality is consciousness? Why bother? If it's already there, if it is the foundation of all things, then creating individual centers of consciousness becomes meaningless. Also when is an astral body born? Does it grow in an astral womb? Does it exist before birth and enter a body? If so, whats with the population explosion? (the population of india and china today, is the same as the entire world population in 1950 for example) I don't see the astral body as a good explanation for things like near death experiences. In fact, I think it creates more contradictions and impossible questions. Impossible questions like: at which point does individual awareness begin? this life? a previous life? is it eternal? I think far more likely, than actually leaving the body, the answer would be: That the body, under extreme pain, stress or both, has a mechanism to protect awareness and identity. In such situations, when the body is in agony, the brain will release some potent chemicals... (these could be similar to) morphene, DMT etc. The feeling of detachment, the "other world" is the brains fail safe mechanism, helping detach the psychology of the individual from extreme trauma. In doing so, if the subject survives, they survive with less psychological trauma than if they had experienced moment by moment conscious awareness of extreme agony and stress. This makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint, because it means that individual can go about its daily life again, relativley free from mental scars (especially if they already have physical scars) and increase thier chances to reproduce. Lets also not forget that a good deal of NDEs occur in surgical situations, where the patient is already anaesthetised. A very common drug in these situations is Ketamine... Anyone who has ever tried ketamine will know that it gives very vivid, convincing experiences of bodily detachment, lights at the end of tunnels, feelings of bliss and peace etc. etc. etc. Remember ketamine is a very very common drug to be used in these kind of situations. So one way or another the brain is drugged... Either naturally with endogenous brain chemicals like morphene and DMT or with surgical anaestheic chemical such as Ketamine. All of which are known to create similar experiences when administered to healthy individuals.

[spaceexplorer]

So in relation to my last post, the first thing i'd ask the blind woman from this video is: What drugs were used whilst you were in the operating room? In fact, i'd really suggest reading this, it's very interesting: http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/_ketamine.html One quote that really stood out, and remember these are normal people, not on thier death bed, but just normal people having a ketamine experience: "It is significant that 30 percent of normal subjects given ketamine insisted that they had not been dreaming or hallucinating, but that the events had really happened." Imagine how much more potent the experience, if you were also told that you'd just cheated death!

[Specialis Sapientia]

It's great that you have so many questions, I will answer them tomorrow! I am going to sleep, goodnight

[Xetrov]

Just to clarify things, spaceexplorer, are you saying that I am being incredibly insensitive to the disabled? That I am insulting their intelligence or that I am offensive? And just to clarify, did you read that book? Dit you check what methods and techniques of investigation they used? Did you by any chance check if they might be referenced to in other scientific work? I have to admit I did not, I only read a few reviews of their book. But to claim right out that they are unknown, and hence we have to skip their whole investigation as 100% worthless, is a little easy. I am not claiming that they gave any proof either, just that they pose some interesting information that could give reason for further investigation. Be it to discover that they are either right or wrong. Also, it is of course interesting to draw into the discussion further philosophical / scientific issues, like why have NDE/OBE people never experienced sonar (or any of your other objections for that matter), but even if this what you claim is true, it does not in itself negate any other possible evidence on the subject, which in itself could be positive proof of NDE even if you are right in your objections. I am for being open minded and do not as easily dismiss these investigations as some of the more passionate defenders of materialism (the evidence might still be loony though, but I can only say that after fully reading it). I think far more likely, than actually leaving the body, the answer would be: That the body, under extreme pain, stress or both, has a mechanism to protect awareness and identity. In such situations, when the body is in agony, the brain will release some potent chemicals... (these could be similar to) morphene, DMT etc. The feeling of detachment, the "other world" is the brains fail safe mechanism, helping detach the psychology of the individual from extreme trauma. In doing so, if the subject survives, they survive with less psychological trauma than if they had experienced moment by moment conscious awareness of extreme agony and stress. This makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint, because it means that individual can go about its daily life again, relativley free from mental scars (especially if they already have physical scars) and increase thier chances to reproduce. Lets also not forget that a good deal of NDEs occur in surgical situations, where the patient is already anaesthetised. A very common drug in these situations is Ketamine... This is true but, during several of these reported NDE's, the subjects had zero brain activity measured for prolonged periods of time. No brain activity means that the required parts of the brain, such as the visual cortex, are offline. If this is true, the brain can be totally drown in drugs, but this would still have no effect on the visuals that the brain shows the subject, because they brain isn't really doing all that much at all. Maybe you have investigated a pioneer of research in this field, van Lommel. If not, maybe you should check out his (scientific!) investigations. To pique your interest, you might start here: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...periences.html (btw, notice here "the team found no link between NDEs and drugs used to treat the patients"). and http://www.skepticalinvestigations.o.../vanLommel.htm

[Kuhnada29]

I think a blind man can see, during dreams and astral projection. Since we're in beyond dreaming, I'm going to enjoy posting this. I've come to the conclusion that while asleep or after you die, consciousness still exists and you still perceive without the need of eyes, ears, or anything. How this happens? WIth emotions, you percieve with feelings and belief. Kinda hard to explain. I read somewhere when out-of-body you don't SEE anything with your eyes. Say if your out-of-body, you might see a couple sitting on a beach enjoying a sunset. While another person would see a whore house. It's the same thing, but it's an illusion you see it because it's how you feel. The couple would represent love and a drug user or someone would love or have strong feelings for the whore house. It's all emotions and feelings though.

[spaceexplorer]

I think a blind man can see, during dreams and astral projection. Since we're in beyond dreaming, I'm going to enjoy posting this. I've come to the conclusion that while asleep or after you die, consciousness still exists and you still perceive without the need of eyes, ears, or anything. How this happens? WIth emotions, you percieve with feelings and belief. Kinda hard to explain. I read somewhere when out-of-body you don't SEE anything with your eyes. Say if your out-of-body, you might see a couple sitting on a beach enjoying a sunset. While another person would see a whore house. It's the same thing, but it's an illusion you see it because it's how you feel. The couple would represent love and a drug user or someone would love or have strong feelings for the whore house. It's all emotions and feelings though. Can you just tell me, are you going to rob a convinience store before or after spiritual enlightenment? What are you going to steal? Karma? Astral coins? Sometimes the level of complete madness in this place makes me want to scream. Im dont think i need to reply to what you actually wrote in your post... because, lets face it, you're just making it up as you go along arnt you?