Skeptics Corner

[moonshine]

No need for passwords and cotton wool to join this gang. Just a little thread for closed minded science fundamentalists to declare their belief in rationality, logic, evidence and the balance of probabilities. Like any and all beliefs in Beyond Dreaming, I'm sure they will of course be treated with the absolute unconditional respect that they deserve. So I'll kick off. My names moonshine, and I'm a skeptic.

[SomeDreamer]

We'll deffinately need skeptical cats aswell! I'm SomeDreamer, and I'm a skeptic!

[The Cusp]

My names moonshine, and I'm a skeptic. I like how you make it sound like it's something you need to recover from.

[Creation X]

I like how you make it sound like it's something you need to recover from. that's exactly what i thought too

[SomeDreamer]

I like how you make it sound like it's something you need to recover from. Skepticism feeds on your humor! This shall push it forward to victory.

[benTENDO]

Like any and all beliefs in Beyond Dreaming, I'm sure they will of course be treated with the absolute unconditional respect that they deserve. I have a small problem with what you are declaring.. My names moonshine, and I'm a skeptic. You are believing in what you are not believing in? Like any and all beliefs I think that this is not a belief..So does that mean that we don't have to treat you "with the absolute unconditional respect" Heard of an oxymoron? You are disbelieving.. not believing in not believing, which actually means that you shouldn't be posting on this forum because you are not a believer you are a disbeliever.

[♥Mark]

...and the balance of probabilities. The what of the what? I have a small problem with what you are declaring.. You are believing in what you are not believing in? Like any and all beliefs I think that this is not a belief..So does that mean that we don't have to treat you "with the absolute unconditional respect" Heard of an oxymoron? You are disbelieving.. not believing in not believing, which actually means that you shouldn't be posting on this forum because you are not a believer you are a disbeliever. Sounds like skeptic talk to me.

[nzguy]

No need for passwords and cotton wool to join this gang. Just a little thread for closed minded science fundamentalists to declare their belief in rationality, logic, evidence and the balance of probabilities. Like any and all beliefs in Beyond Dreaming, I'm sure they will of course be treated with the absolute unconditional respect that they deserve. So I'll kick off. My names moonshine, and I'm a skeptic. Ah, looks like I don't qualify then... although I'm a skeptic, I'm definitely not closed-minded. Seems like a bit of a leap to put the two hand-in-hand actually... I'm sure there are a lot of people on this forum who are in the same situation. Just because we are told something, doesn't mean we automatically believe it. That's skepticism. On the other hand, closed-mindedness is the belief that nothing outside the realm of what we currently know can possibly be real. And lets face it, if you really are both skeptical and closed-minded, what is the point of a discussion thread? Its not like you're going to share ideas because in your own minds, you know how everything works anyway and you will not consider each other's idea to carry any value whatsoever. I also disagree with your agument for why this thread should be posted in Beyond Dreaming... BD was designed for discussing "OBEs, dream precognition, sharing dreams, and other freaky paranormal things", not closed-minded belief structures.

[moonshine]

Nope. Skeptic =/= close minded. Sorry about that.

[Arutad]

BD was designed for discussing "OBEs, dream precognition, sharing dreams, and other freaky paranormal things", not closed-minded belief structures. Hm, I'm pretty sure that the first post was a kind of joke, not a description of the OP's personal stance... Just because we are told something, doesn't mean we automatically believe it. That's skepticism. You've never seen that earth revolves around the sun, why do you believe so automatically what you're told? What the majority believes = always truth? Then I'm not a skeptic, by such a definition of skepticism. I have an area of interest that is "uncertain", and likely won't ever become certain in my lifetime, but neither really believe nor disbelieve in anything about it. I find that a constant urge to check things lets you go beyond having to choose what to think of them most of the time. Although when you talk to people who don't care for checking anything you do come out as stubborn, they tend to take insistence on having certainty as a personal insult to their believes.

[nzguy]

Nope. Skeptic =/= close minded. Sorry about that. Don't be sorry. You have actually just made my point for me - skepticism is not the same as closed-mindedness. They are totally different things.

[nzguy]

You've never seen that earth revolves around the sun, why do you believe so automatically what you're told? What the majority believes = always truth? Then I'm not a skeptic, by such a definition of skepticism. I have an area of interest that is "uncertain", and likely won't ever become certain in my lifetime, but neither really believe nor disbelieve in anything about it. I find that a constant urge to check things lets you go beyond having to choose what to think of them most of the time. Although when you talk to people who don't care for checking anything you do come out as stubborn, they tend to take insistence on having certainty as a personal insult to their believes. That's a really good point. It is impossible to question absolutely everything - it would make your live miserable and extremely dull if you demanded evidence when, say, your wife told you she saw your friend Larry at the grocery store... there comes a point where you just have to accept certain things or put them in the "uncertain" category you mentioned. The point at which you're willing to just accept things varies between individuals and defines the difference between a gullible person and a hardcore skeptic. For me, I'm willing to accept a lot of things that have been tested and proven by science (such as the earth revolving around the sun), but as far as the topics of this thread is concerned (I'm guessing OBEs, dream precognition, sharing dreams, and other freaky paranormal things) I would definitely lean more towards the skeptical end of the scale.

[Xetrov]

Just a little thread for closed minded science fundamentalists to declare their belief in rationality, logic, evidence and the balance of probabilities. I agree that the majority of people claiming to have experienced something "supernatural" and/or "spiritual", should re-evaluate these experiences with a higher dose of rationality and logic, re-check their evidence and take the balance of probablilities into the equation. This does for me, however, not exclude the possibility that there's more out there than most of the die-hard materialist skeptics currently believe would be possible. Also, there are those out there that are open minded to possibilities that seem outside current scientific dogma, without losing sight of skeptic values.

[DeathCell]

Someone needs a new hobby.

[The Cusp]

I agree that the majority of people claiming to have experienced something "supernatural" and/or "spiritual", should re-evaluate these experiences with a higher dose of rationality and logic, re-check their evidence and take the balance of probablilities into the equation. When I was about 17, I just finished betting on hockey games at the corner store with a friend. As I'm walking out the door, like being hit by lightening, I'm struck with the certainty that two specific teams I just bet on will tie. It wasn't in words, it was just a feeling, but I was dead certain those two teams would tie. The certainty was so strong and sudden it stopped me dead in my tracks and left me stunned as I tried to rationalize what just happened. My friend asked me what was wrong, but I didn't say anything and just went back in and bought another ticket. That tie boosted my odds so that a 2 dollar ticket payed out over 300$. Even though I could feel in every fiber of my being that they were going to tie, rationally, I couldn't trust it or justify spending that night's drinking money, so I only got a 2 dollar ticket. So of course they tied and I won, and totally regretted not having bet more money. So how many ways are there to to evaluate that. It wasn't like some random thought, I knew in a very specific way something was going to happen and it did, I've only had that happen a handful of times since, never about anything I could make money on unfortunately, and they have all been strong and very speficic feelings about things I need to do or places I need to go. In an attempt to describe the feeling that accompanies this, imagine your watching a large truck speeding down the road, the driver juggling his cell phone and coffee. Then you notice a little girl chase her ball out into the street. The moment you make that connection, when in a flash you know for sure, without words that big truck is going to hit that little girl if you don't do something. That's exactly what it feels like, with the same sense of urgency and drama. The times I've rationalized that knowledge away as just imagination I've really really regretted it. They may not be voices, but now I always do what they tell me.

[moonshine]

I have a small problem with what you are declaring.. You are believing in what you are not believing in? Like any and all beliefs I think that this is not a belief..So does that mean that we don't have to treat you "with the absolute unconditional respect" Heard of an oxymoron? You are disbelieving.. not believing in not believing, which actually means that you shouldn't be posting on this forum because you are not a believer you are a disbeliever. So you're trying to state that a belief in the tenets of science, rationality, logic and evidence isn't actually a belief at all. Bzzzzzzz....does not compute.

[moonshine]

Don't be sorry. You have actually just made my point for me - skepticism is not the same as closed-mindedness. They are totally different things. What point is that. Your saying that skeptical is not the same as close minded, yet you're trying to say I'm closed minded because I have declared myself skeptical. Bzzzzzz...does not compute. Honestly guys, a new group has recently been invited to the party. Just giving them a chance to say 'lo. Anyone else thing its kinda ironic that the first to grumble about respect for individual belief structures and regularly claim to be harrassed by close-mindedness are the first to roll in and make pointless passive agressive attacks on a simple declaration of a position. Ironic at best. Hypocritical at worst.

[khh]

Ironic at best. Hypocritical at worst. Funny either way. Oh, yeah, I'm one of them close-minded science fundamentalist too.

[Xetrov]

That's exactly what it feels like, with the same sense of urgency and drama. The times I've rationalized that knowledge away as just imagination I've really really regretted it. They may not be voices, but now I always do what they tell me. I know, I have experienced the same on quite some occasions, however not really on such subjects as who would win/loose a sports game. I like to call it intuition and whatever the cause behind it, I have also learned to trust it. Most skeptics would say intuition is most likely a (sub)conscious calculation of all available facts, but then if that were true how would you know both teams would tie. Could all still be a matter of luck (chance calculations etc), but then again it might not (and for those who have experienced such intuitive knowledge it surely doesnt feel like chance).

[nzguy]

What point is that. Your saying that skeptical is not the same as close minded, yet you're trying to say I'm closed minded because I have declared myself skeptical. Ok, just to clear things up, I wasn't the one who declared you closed-minded... YOU WERE! Just a little thread for closed minded science fundamentalists to declare their belief in rationality, logic, evidence and the balance of probabilities. Bzzzzzz...does not compute. If you had bothered to read my last post, you would actually realize its quite straight-forward, but I'll paraphrase it in simpler terms for you. As you mentioned in your opening post, this thread is for skeptical, closed-minded science fundamentalists. Skepticism: Doubt. Closed-mindedness: Having a mind firmly unreceptive to new ideas or arguments. So clearly it seems a bit pointless to create a debating topic for closed-minded skeptics to debate things. After all, they already have their minds firmly unreceptive to new ideas or arguments. Ironic at best. Hypocritical at worst. Yeah, I'll say...

[Scatterbrain]

When I was about 17, I just finished betting on hockey games at the corner store with a friend. As I'm walking out the door, like being hit by lightening, I'm struck with the certainty that two specific teams I just bet on will tie. It wasn't in words, it was just a feeling, but I was dead certain those two teams would tie. The certainty was so strong and sudden it stopped me dead in my tracks and left me stunned as I tried to rationalize what just happened. My friend asked me what was wrong, but I didn't say anything and just went back in and bought another ticket. That tie boosted my odds so that a 2 dollar ticket payed out over 300$. Even though I could feel in every fiber of my being that they were going to tie, rationally, I couldn't trust it or justify spending that night's drinking money, so I only got a 2 dollar ticket. So of course they tied and I won, and totally regretted not having bet more money. So how many ways are there to to evaluate that. It wasn't like some random thought, I knew in a very specific way something was going to happen and it did, I've only had that happen a handful of times since, never about anything I could make money on unfortunately, and they have all been strong and very speficic feelings about things I need to do or places I need to go. In an attempt to describe the feeling that accompanies this, imagine your watching a large truck speeding down the road, the driver juggling his cell phone and coffee. Then you notice a little girl chase her ball out into the street. The moment you make that connection, when in a flash you know for sure, without words that big truck is going to hit that little girl if you don't do something. That's exactly what it feels like, with the same sense of urgency and drama. The times I've rationalized that knowledge away as just imagination I've really really regretted it. They may not be voices, but now I always do what they tell me. A few years ago me and a friend were walking down a street and as we passed a convenience store my friend randomly decided to go inside and buy one of those instant lottery tickets that cost 1€. He scratched it and found out it had a 2€ prize! You know what was the meaning of that event? It meant my friend walked out of the store with 1€ extra in his wallet.

[nzguy]

When I was about 17, I just finished betting on hockey games at the corner store with a friend. As I'm walking out the door, like being hit by lightening, I'm struck with the certainty that two specific teams I just bet on will tie. It wasn't in words, it was just a feeling, but I was dead certain those two teams would tie. The certainty was so strong and sudden it stopped me dead in my tracks and left me stunned as I tried to rationalize what just happened. My friend asked me what was wrong, but I didn't say anything and just went back in and bought another ticket. That tie boosted my odds so that a 2 dollar ticket payed out over 300$. Even though I could feel in every fiber of my being that they were going to tie, rationally, I couldn't trust it or justify spending that night's drinking money, so I only got a 2 dollar ticket. So of course they tied and I won, and totally regretted not having bet more money. So how many ways are there to to evaluate that. It wasn't like some random thought, I knew in a very specific way something was going to happen and it did, I've only had that happen a handful of times since, never about anything I could make money on unfortunately, and they have all been strong and very speficic feelings about things I need to do or places I need to go. In an attempt to describe the feeling that accompanies this, imagine your watching a large truck speeding down the road, the driver juggling his cell phone and coffee. Then you notice a little girl chase her ball out into the street. The moment you make that connection, when in a flash you know for sure, without words that big truck is going to hit that little girl if you don't do something. That's exactly what it feels like, with the same sense of urgency and drama. The times I've rationalized that knowledge away as just imagination I've really really regretted it. They may not be voices, but now I always do what they tell me. Sounds really amazing! And I know what you mean, its not like a voice telling you something... you can just feel it. I've only ever experienced that once. I woke up one morning with a gut feeling that something was going to happen that day... not something bad necessarily, but something life-changing. I tried to just dismiss it and carry on with my day, but it kept nagging at my mind. That night I was driving home from my grandparents' place. As I rounded a curve in the road, I noticed there was a car on my side of the road going excessively fast. I had to swerve to miss him and ended up wrecked in a ditch at the side of the road. I guess it could be a co-incidence, but I think there might be something more to it especially since a lot of people report the same sort of thing. I wish there was some way to harness intuition... it would be an incredible ability to have

[Arutad]

It is impossible to question absolutely everything - it would make your live miserable and extremely dull I agree with you. But I think that if you saw a UFO you wouldn't agree with it readily, even if it looked like a UFO and you saw a few greenish thin men peeking out of it and waving at you. I'm pretty sure that you'd explain it away by telling yourself that it was a vivid hallucination. Anything can be explained away by other things. I can't decide whether to call it close-mindedness or not. If you manage to read somebody's mind at will, a lot is needed to erase doubt, otherwise you could explain it away as a row of insane coincidences. That's pretty funny. Whatever input from your senses can be called hallucination. If you really want, then you can check something but decide that the result of the check was a hallucination. If somebody else tells you the same thing, you may decide that you hear him incorrectly, that you're totally nuts and your hearing is distorted. Of course it's applicable only in extreme cases, when you really can't believe in something. Maybe that's what real close-mindedness is, but what if it's true, what if you went insane? I wish there was some way to harness intuition... it would be an incredible ability to have Where are your doubts?! I guess you aren't a real skeptic If you can't reproduce it, it could always be a coincidence, that's what a real skeptic would say!

[nzguy]

I agree with you. But I think that if you saw a UFO you wouldn't agree with it readily, even if it looked like a UFO and you saw a few greenish thin men peeking out of it and waving at you. I'm pretty sure that you'd explain it away by telling yourself that it was a vivid hallucination. Anything can be explained away by other things. I can't decide whether to call it close-mindedness or not. If you manage to read somebody's mind at will, a lot is needed to erase doubt, otherwise you could explain it away as a row of insane coincidences. That's pretty funny. Whatever input from your senses can be called hallucination. If you really want, then you can check something but decide that the result of the check was a hallucination. If somebody else tells you the same thing, you may decide that you hear him incorrectly, that you're totally nuts and your hearing is distorted. Of course it's applicable only in extreme cases, when you really can't believe in something. Maybe that's what real close-mindedness is, but what if it's true, what if you went insane? Wow, you raised some really valid points there In my opinion, that defines the difference between being open-minded and being closed-minded. To use the scenario you mentioned, if I saw a UFO and little green men, my initial reaction would be of astonishment and disbelief, but I wouldn't dismiss it immediately. First of all, I would record as much detail of what I had seen as I could recall, then compare my experience to that of other people who claimed to have seen similar things. On the other hand, a closed-minded approach to the same situation would be to dismiss it as a hallucination/dream/refraction of light etc. In the end, the closed-minded person might have hit the nail on the head and been totally right, but it would be a little bit conceited to ignore any other possible explanations. And you're right - people are very quick to dismiss things they do not understand as hallucinations/co-incidences etc... perhaps its just because of our inherent fear of the unknown.

[nzguy]

I wish there was some way to harness intuition... it would be an incredible ability to have Where are your doubts?! I guess you aren't a real skeptic If you can't reproduce it, it could always be a coincidence, that's what a real skeptic would say! I kind of meant that last comment a little bit tongue-in-cheek, like if intuition was something that could be reproduced and harnessed, someone would have done it. I didn't say I believe it was intuition 100%, in fact the most logical conclusion is that it was a co-incidence, but I'm not ready to say it definitely wasn't.