Thread: LD - Spiritual Perspective

Originally Posted by mini0991

Most of what's typically described as "spiritual" is derived from fictitious ancient texts originally posited as truth but later found to fail even basic tests of logic.

Now, given the state of current knowledge, one can either assume that what's unexplainable is simply unexplainable, or what's unexplainable is explainable by faith in a particular belief. It's more accurate to say both schools of thought are neither right nor wrong, it's merely what one chooses based on their personal faith. I personally have none. Others differ. It's not wrong to have faith, but it's wrong to assume faith is *the* absolute answer to something.

Faith and beliefs are, in a non-spiritual way also, what gets us going. Scientist believes in his theory before he proves it.

Originally Posted by mini0991

Most of what's typically described as "spiritual" is derived from fictitious ancient texts originally posited as truth but later found to fail even basic tests of logic.

you obviously have no idea what spirituality is.

Originally Posted by mini0991

Sounds interesting. Can you give a link to where you detailed your experience?

It's in my signature.

Originally Posted by mini0991

Most of what's typically described as "spiritual" is derived from fictitious ancient texts originally posited as truth but later found to fail even basic tests of logic.

Perhaps in your experience this is true. But "texts" as you put them are a relatively new development in the Human existence. "Spirituality" is much older and a much more fundamental part of the Human condition. In fact, if you so staunchly cling to your science, then we could say that spirituality existed even BEFORE Humans. Archeological evidence supports that Neaderthals buried their dead. That is a clear indication of spirituality - and they weren't "Humans". Writing, which has been around for only about 8,000 years is the proverbial "drop in the bucket" compared to the 600,000 years ago that Neaderthals showed up. Therefore, I would argue - "logically" - that the written texts you cite were records of a pre-existing sense of spirituality and the various religions used to get to that point, NOT the other way around.

You may think this semantics, but personally I feel there is a distinct difference between Spirituality and Religion.

To me, Spirituality is the feeling of connectedness to something larger and more important than can be fully understood. Whatever the "something" is, it is outside our knowing. It is a profound feeling that philosophers and teachers have tried to understand and describe - with varying degrees of success - since before Homo Sapiens existed (as evidenced by Neaderthals burying their dead).

Religion, on the other hand, is how one gains that feeling. It is the formulaic process one goes through to get connected. By documenting their "formula" people were able to share their ability to feel that connectedness. The formulas that were most successful to the largest number of people were the ones that grew. This is a concept that lovers of Darwin should appreciate.

Originally Posted by mini0991

Now, given the state of current knowledge, one can either assume that what's unexplainable is simply unexplainable, or what's unexplainable is explainable by faith in a particular belief.

...or will become explainable as our Knowledge and Understanding change and evolve.

Originally Posted by mini0991

It's more accurate to say both schools of thought are neither right nor wrong, it's merely what one chooses based on their personal faith. I personally have none. Others differ. It's not wrong to have faith, but it's wrong to assume faith is *the* absolute answer to something.

With this, I agree. To assume that ANYTHING is *the* answer is the height of folly and ignorant, arrogance. The flip side of that coin, however, is to say that anything is wrong. This is equally ignorant and arrogant. There is Truth in all beliefs and no belief is 100% True. Being able to discern, from a personal vantage point, the difference between Truth and Formula is the purpose of spiritual study.

Sounds kinda like your "science" doesn't it?

Saxonharp, you put into words a lot of my own thoughts and feeling better than I can express them myself.

Originally Posted by mini0991

Most of what's typically described as "spiritual" is derived from fictitious ancient texts originally posited as truth but later found to fail even basic tests of logic.

Actually, these 'texts' are historical records from the time Aliens were here on Earth teaching humans the basics of civilization, language, agriculture, math, science, art, music, and architecture. In the Torah and the Bible the Elohim were mistranslated to mean Gods, but in fact means people from the skies. The sumerians called them the annunaki and said that there were 600 of them on the Earth having people build pyramids and breeding with humans and doing genetic engineering on homo erectus to create humans in 'their image'. They were among us for 200,000 years. According to the texts they were involved in a war amongst themselves which they got humans to fight. It ended in a nuclear war in the middle east and the aliens left 2500 years ago. Jesus was a man who tried to get people to leave these alien cults and find their own spirituality. But his teachings got taken by the same alien cult and used for political control. Since then people have suffered an abandoned by the gods complex and have still clung to the belief in them but forgot that they were flesh and blood and had spaceships. They 'supernaturalized' the aliens and now they believe that their alien is the one and only God. This God of YHVH that Christians and Jews is the same as Allah the muslims believe in, is just an absent alien that is probably dead now.
The Egyptians say that their Gods came from a planet in the Sirius star system.

However, spirituality has nothing to do with any of this.

Where did you read about that history Dannon? Nice to see you back btw =)

In reply to the original post...

I'd have to agree, that i am sure that a higher awareness can be achieved during waking life.
For many years I studied Zen and other forms of Buddhism, I'd not call myself a buddhist, but i have a huge respect for their approach.

Also, there is a good deal of information out there about "peak experiences", which certainly seems like a more enhanced version of awareness.

The word spiritual is a tricky one, because it has so many different personal uses. I myself use it to define my awe at the mystery and majesty of the Universe... the fact that we find ourselves surrounded (and are part of) the most fundemental mystery that has ever been.
Many people use the term spiritual to mean a belief in the supernatural or similar, which I personally do not share. I do not rule these things out, but i am more concerned with the direct mystery facing us... which is: what the hell are we, where the hell are we, and why are we here?

I myself have experienced incredible moments where i have transcended my normal awareness and entered into what appears to be a hightened state.
As is the nature of such things, words cannot do it justice, so I would struggle to explain it... the best i can do is simply say, I felt as if the veil of the mundane thinking processes had been lifted and I experienced life and reality in a more direct, unprocessed by personal preferences way.
It was essentially as if my personality no longer existed, and i became aware that I and the Universe are one and the same thing... not in some kind of egotistical way, but in the same way that the raindrop can return to the ocean from which it came.

Hopefully, this suprises some people here, who see me as a die hard skeptic, because, yes I do believe that the unverse is an unfathomable mystery... I just like to approach that mystery with tools to get to the bottom of it, and have found skepticism and critical thinking invaluable to help me avoid some of the traps that our egos and personal preferences can so easily be drawn into.

I suppose the higher awareness, the waking lucidity, is much like awareness of awareness... the realisation that you REALLY are here, that every second is a new flowering of this universal mystery... that we are floating in this vast potentially eternal universe... and that every atom in your body has been here since the dawn of that universe.

Where the human personality fits into all this, well I have no idea.
I'd assume death is the end of the personality, that thing we assume is us.
But certainly the universe dosn't go anywhere when we die, and as we are eternaly entwined with the universe, the very physical elements that we are made of ARE that universe... we don't "go" anywhere... the raindrop just slips back into the ocean... from which new, unique, raindrops will eventually emerge.

I see the human personality as a symphony played on the instrument of the mind... when the music is over, that is it... but the effect that music has had on the universe, and the memories of that music, will send ripples into eternity.

So really, I suppose to achieve a higher awareness in life, is simply to bring yourself back constantly, to the mystery of existence, the mystery that you are forever bonded to. The more you can remind yourself of the sheer wonder of being alive, the more you can make your life send meaningful ripples out into the universe. Perhaps that is the only form of eternal life, and what if it is? it is still a wonderful thing.

This is why I find simple answers to questions like "why are we here?"
simple answers like "god did it".
So utterly dull in comparison to the mystery that surrounds us.
It is far better to remain humble and open, and to just enjoy the wonder of not knowing, and the joy of living... to simply understand something like how a flower grows by studying biology, or the harmonys of physics... can be "spiritual" because each are small parts to that eternal mystery... and each question answered, poses new questions.

Isn't it great to be alive!

Sumerian texts, the Bible, the Torah, The Egyptian book of the Dead, etc. Check out the Elohim. Check out the FreeMasons. There are secret societies that still hold this secret knowledge. The Catholic Church and other organized religions supress the knowledge that the gods were actually aliens. There are books about it as well. Chariot of the Gods comes to mind, although I haven't read it I know what it is about. I did read a very good book called "God, Genes, and Consciousness" I don't know if I got the order of those words right. Check it out if you are interested, it is a good read.

Basically all over the world at the same time people developed the same technology. Here are a few interesting stories: The tower of babel when all of a sudden God got mad at the people for trying to build a tower to ascend to his realm and they all of a sudden spoke different languages and couldn't understand each other is actually some people who built a tower to try to get to the tower where an alien lived (zigurrat). The aliens messed with there minds or DNA and they spoke different languages. In fact the ability to speak at all was thanks to the aliens who changed a chromosome in us that gave us the necessary bone in our voice box.
I am amazed that no skeptics have come in to call me crazy yet. So look, after the great cataclysm and flood that ended the ice age people were in bad shape and lost much of their technology and knowledge gotten from the Gods (aliens) so aliens gave us things like corn that they had genetically altered and brought from their planet. They had also made some animals able to be domesticated just like they did to us.

Spaceexplorer, thank you for sharing that. I couldn't agree more.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

In reply to the original post...

I'd have to agree, that i am sure that a higher awareness can be achieved during waking life.
For many years I studied Zen and other forms of Buddhism, I'd not call myself a buddhist, but i have a huge respect for their approach.

Also, there is a good deal of information out there about "peak experiences", which certainly seems like a more enhanced version of awareness.

The word spiritual is a tricky one, because it has so many different personal uses. I myself use it to define my awe at the mystery and majesty of the Universe... the fact that we find ourselves surrounded (and are part of) the most fundemental mystery that has ever been.
Many people use the term spiritual to mean a belief in the supernatural or similar, which I personally do not share. I do not rule these things out, but i am more concerned with the direct mystery facing us... which is: what the hell are we, where the hell are we, and why are we here?

I myself have experienced incredible moments where i have transcended my normal awareness and entered into what appears to be a hightened state.
As is the nature of such things, words cannot do it justice, so I would struggle to explain it... the best i can do is simply say, I felt as if the veil of the mundane thinking processes had been lifted and I experienced life and reality in a more direct, unprocessed by personal preferences way.
It was essentially as if my personality no longer existed, and i became aware that I and the Universe are one and the same thing... not in some kind of egotistical way, but in the same way that the raindrop can return to the ocean from which it came.

Hopefully, this suprises some people here, who see me as a die hard skeptic, because, yes I do believe that the unverse is an unfathomable mystery... I just like to approach that mystery with tools to get to the bottom of it, and have found skepticism and critical thinking invaluable to help me avoid some of the traps that our egos and personal preferences can so easily be drawn into.

I suppose the higher awareness, the waking lucidity, is much like awareness of awareness... the realisation that you REALLY are here, that every second is a new flowering of this universal mystery... that we are floating in this vast potentially eternal universe... and that every atom in your body has been here since the dawn of that universe.

Where the human personality fits into all this, well I have no idea.
I'd assume death is the end of the personality, that thing we assume is us.
But certainly the universe dosn't go anywhere when we die, and as we are eternaly entwined with the universe, the very physical elements that we are made of ARE that universe... we don't "go" anywhere... the raindrop just slips back into the ocean... from which new, unique, raindrops will eventually emerge.

I see the human personality as a symphony played on the instrument of the mind... when the music is over, that is it... but the effect that music has had on the universe, and the memories of that music, will send ripples into eternity.

So really, I suppose to achieve a higher awareness in life, is simply to bring yourself back constantly, to the mystery of existence, the mystery that you are forever bonded to. The more you can remind yourself of the sheer wonder of being alive, the more you can make your life send meaningful ripples out into the universe. Perhaps that is the only form of eternal life, and what if it is? it is still a wonderful thing.

This is why I find simple answers to questions like "why are we here?"
simple answers like "god did it".
So utterly dull in comparison to the mystery that surrounds us.
It is far better to remain humble and open, and to just enjoy the wonder of not knowing, and the joy of living... to simply understand something like how a flower grows by studying biology, or the harmonys of physics... can be "spiritual" because each are small parts to that eternal mystery... and each question answered, poses new questions.

Isn't it great to be alive!

Right on! Yes, the Buddha was a skeptic, not an occultist. And the universe is really a mystery to be lived, not a puzzle to be solved. And any answer to the mystery has got to be false, and it cheapens the whole thing. Like in the Hithhiker's Guide to the Galaxy the answer is 42! So if you have the answer, then what? How does it transform you? Right? The mystery is beautiful and wonder is a quality to embrace. Looking at the Universe with wonder-filled eyes, with no questions or answers in your mind, will give you the childlike state of consciousness necessary to find how you fit into this heavenly Universe.

Wow Dannon, your words never cease to amaze me.

I feel that all is dream & that all dreams of form are equal. they all contribute something. I feel that in lucid dreaming, which I believe is an umbrella term, to be the 2nd most readily accessible reality to us all. I feel that dreaming is a way of remembering why we came here.

I feel that lucid dreaming is a doorway to even greater states of consciousness or better yet a corner market where you can learn/purchase it & return to your house/body with it to benefit your life.

As for circular breathing its really not that hard. It might help to understand circular breathing to know that you are breathing in and out at the same time but, not exclusively with your lungs. I play the didje & I circular breathe. When you are circular breathing you group the organs nose & lungs with mouth lips. While you breathe out your mouth you use your cheeks to press out while sucking in your nose. The kicker here is that you learn to close your throat while breathing in & open to resupply air to your cheeks w/o losing continuity of breath.

I hope that makes sense. I just woke up few minutes ago...

@Spaceexplorer
Yes I'm also highly surprised to hear you used to be a buddhist-monk
You sound like just the type of guy who should take the time and effort to read Thomas Campbells: "My Big Toe." 800 pages where he tries to describe the way he sees the universe(s), how it is structured and most importantly that you shouldn't believe a word of it until you can discover it yourself.

He describes how everything is one big consciousness and that we are all connected. He uses the analogy of computers to describe it all. Everything exists side by side, organised in different realities apart, but we have the power to see whats going on in the other parts of memory/harddisk if we can gain increase our consciousnes ("lower our entropy" as he describes it)

Its a very interesting read and best of all: He don't want the reader to believe anything he says, but go into the text with as an "open minded skeptic" (Sounds like you Spaceexplorer) and try to discover things by ourselves to not make any pseudo-knowledge - that will only work as a barrier, making it even harder to make something out of our own experiences with consciousness.

btw. Campbell is saying that when we die, our fragment of consciousness is still held together, so we don't just fade away into the ocean of consciousness. We still exist.

Mind you - I haven't got the brainpower to summarize this great piece of hard workmanship, so I can only hope to wet everyones appetite. It have a scientific approach to everything, but still have passages with more "spiritual" context. Simply put: If yoy want to think even deeper about life and the universe as we know and don't know it then this book is for you.


It can be read on the internet: http://books.google.com/books?id=6To...age&q=&f=false

or bought: www.my-big-toe.com

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

here's the excerpt:

I saw Earth in front of me. I could spin the image of the Earth around like Google Earth. I saw Japan was asleep. Then, I thought about Australia, and the Dreamtime. Suddenly I was in Australia. It was night. I was in The Outback. I was The Maxx. "This will never do," I thought. I have to become an animal. I thought about the great animals of Australia. I became a red kangaroo. I went bounding over the plain. A freshwater crocodile appeared and attacked me, biting me in the stomach. I teleported away, healed my wound, then, I leapt up and stomped on his head. He got pissed, and as I turned for another attack, he lunged up at me, exposing his underside, so I punched him in his chest.The crocodile disappeared.

I saw an Aboriginal man playing a didjeridoo on the plain. I became me again. I heard other men playing far far away in a canyon. I sat down in front of the man on the plain. I pulled out a didjeridoo. He opened his eyes and looked at me. He was a little surprised to see an outsider in the dreamtime. He smiled at me benignly, then began playing again. We both played together. I got lost in the music. Stars began pouring out of his didjeridoo, and I stopped playing, transfixed. The stars flew up into the sky, forming constellations.

I saw a dingo, a crocodile, owls, kangaroos, koalas, and other animals. The constellations told a great story, The Story, the story of our origins, our past our future, it was all the same, it was all one. I was overwhelmed. I couldn't understand it, but I kept staring up at the constellations. I felt like crying.

Then, I was playing with the man again. We both stopped our song at the same time. He looked at me, and smiled again. It was time for me to leave Australia.

Awesome dream! Thanks for sharing it. I'm always amazed at meeting dream characters and their attitudes - they remind me of long, lost friends and we usually are so pleased to be meeting each other again.

Very very interesting theory. I love philosophy.
Although so many people have existed on this planet. You'd think that by now someone would have found or achieved a higher level of consciousness, if it was possible.

Originally Posted by Loaf

Very very interesting theory. I love philosophy.
Although so many people have existed on this planet. You'd think that by now someone would have found or achieved a higher level of consciousness, if it was possible.

After they enlighten them selves with the fact that life is a dream, they probably say: meh, screw you guys (I'm going home?), I found it on my own, you go along that path to, I'm not helping.

Originally Posted by Luanne

After they enlighten them selves with the fact that life is a dream, they probably say: meh, screw you guys (I'm going home?), I found it on my own, you go along that path to, I'm not helping.

Selfish people...

Originally Posted by Loaf

Very very interesting theory. I love philosophy.
Although so many people have existed on this planet. You'd think that by now someone would have found or achieved a higher level of consciousness, if it was possible.

Ever hear of The Buddha? Jesus? Mohammed?

I think many would argue that a LOT of people have achieved a higher level of consciousness. We choose to accept that or not based on our own beliefs. Or, we allow our personal biases to blind us to the Truth.

Originally Posted by saxonharp

Jesus? Mohammed

No comment on Buddha.

Originally Posted by Loaf

No comment on Buddha.

Why is that?

Originally Posted by saxonharp

Why is that?

Well he apparently he existed and was a prince but I hardly know anything about buddah or what he has done. I'm not the religious type.

Originally Posted by Loaf

Well he apparently he existed and was a prince but I hardly know anything about buddah or what he has done. I'm not the religious type.

But you know enough about Jesus and Mohammed to determine that they did not reach a higher level of consciousness nor try to communicate that to the world?

Originally Posted by saxonharp

But you know enough about Jesus and Mohammed to determine that they did not reach a higher level of consciousness nor try to communicate that to the world?

I don't believe Jesus did anything that they said he did. People were so gullible in that time. If Jesus did exist, he was probably a mere man. I think neither of us should continue this argument as it'll turn into a religious debate.