Originally Posted by spaceexplorer
Is shared dreaming possible?
Unfortunatly, as much as i would LOVE for it to be possible, I think it's a bit of wishful thinking and trying to make coincidental events fit around beliefs.
But, I think you're pretty safe in your dream privacy.
For shared dreaming to be real, you have to make a LOT of big assumptions about physics, the human mind, the universe etc. which don't actually have any standing in observable reality.
Right. And the dreamworld does not exist in any standing observable reality. It is all hearsay.
If you do manage to have a shared dream, I would however love to hear about it. Despite being skeptical, that dosn't mean i don't want it to be true, because it woud be a fantastic thing if it were!
Just, I'd rather not play make believe, like they seem to do in the DDT.
You would love to hear about it? Then check out the shared dream journal in my signature.
[QUOTE=spaceexplorer;1195734]Yes because obviously, one person out of over 6 billion currently allive (and the billions who have died before us), who happens to post a dream journal on one forum, which could very easily be either falsified, self deluded, or just simply mistaken... is all the evidence you need to prove dream sharing.
Falsified, absolutely. Self-deluded, if I had mutliple personality disorder. Mistaken? Completely impossible.
Anyone can write ANYTHING they want on a forum, for ANY reason they want. With virtually no comeback in their own personal lives. But also, lets not ignore that someone making impressive claims, also has a lot to gain... they gain respect, friends, authority on the subject etc.
Respect? More like ridicule. Friends? No more than I would have without this "ability" which I think we all have. Authority on the subject? People in other cultures have been deliberately sharing dreams for thousands of years, yet in Western culture we dismiss them.
So for very little personal risk, someone, who we know nothing about, who may for example, have a rather unfulfilling and unsocial real life, could come into this forum, and make whatever claims they want.
Absolutely.
So sigh as much as you like, but one persons claims are not proof.
If Nomad really can have shared dreams, and it is as easy as he claims...
Then i'm sure he would be happy to demonstrate this claim in a way which consitiutes as proof.
I'd be more than happy to attempt to dream share with him, and in that dream tell him a piece of information only i am aware of.
If he can then during waking life demonstrate that he knows that information, that would be a big step towards demonstrating his credibility.
Really? So what are you willing to attempt to do try and dream share?
Writing a dreamjournal, unfortunatly offers nothing.
I myself could start a dream journal and make whatever claims i wish.
That wouldn't make those claims true either.
Well, if you were to write in your dream journal consistently, then it would be easier to share dreams with you.
Sure, it's good to trust our fellow human beings, and I'd hope that Nomad isn't out to fool people.
I'll offer him the benifit of the doubt, that he genuinely believes what he shares.
However, that still dosn't mean his claims are genuine.
There could be all number of reasons that he may have misinterpreted his experiences.
Originally Posted by spaceexplorer
I've always been into the idea of shared dreaming, i've had a couple of unusual seemingly shared dreams in the past, so I'm aware that the experience of a shared dream can certainly feel convincing, what the explanation for the experience is, remains a mystery. The only way to demystify it is to have solid examples of the genuine sharing of information that couldn't be known by the other party.
A shared dream scene, theme, or script, whilst a convincing experience to those involved, could easily be the result of something other than a genuine meeting of minds in the dreamstate.
So, when are you going to tell us about your seemingly shared dreams? I'd love to hear about them.
If for example, Nomad or another self proclaimed shared dreamer, could share a dream with say, myself, and in that dream I were to give Nomad my bank PIN number, and then the next day on the forum, he were able to provide that number... that would be a compelling bit of data in favour of a genuine shared experience. If that could then be repeated successfully under conditions which rule out foul play, then the evidence would start to become pretty solid indeed.
That would only convince you.
At which point, you'd be able to revolutionise modern science and theories of the consciousness, probably making a great career for yourself, whilst at the same time educating and improving the world we live in. Not something to be sniffed at!
What many people seem to totally misjudge about me, is that I do not play devils advocate with the intention of being a spoil sport. I do it, because like many of you, i would love to believe, I would love such things to be true. By asking hard questions, and requesting verifiable proofs of claims, i'm not looking to be a pain in the arse, I'm looking for someone to offer something compelling in FAVOUR of shared dreaming. If someone can offer evidence, I would be the very first person, to jump in at the deep end of the subject, and dedicate my life to learning more about it.
I always thought scientific exploration was formulating hypotheses first, then, experimenting to see if it was true, and gaining as much evidence as possible. So, why don't you try it first?
It wouldn't be just some curiosity for me on a forum, it would be something that would be revolutionary in the world, and utterly worth exploring in total depth and dedication.
If this is REAL it is utterly utterly AMAZING and needs to be explored fully.
If it is not, then it is a huge waste of time and energy, both of which us mortal humans don't have much of, so it is a precious commodity, not to be wasted.
So with such high stakes, I really wish people would consider more often being the devils advocate, to keep pushing for more and more solid evidence. If the phenomena is real, then it shouldn't be a problem, the truth should not be effected one bit by difficult questions, in fact the truth should embrace them, because it reveals itself more fully when pushed hard.
See above.
Difficult questions are the friend of truth and the enemy of lies.
So when people get defensive, when you start asking difficult questions, that is a worrying signal, it makes you wonder if they genuinely believe the claims they are making.
ramble over
Originally Posted by spaceexplorer
Seriously,
If you genuinely believe in this...
Why on earth would you not be desperate to get this proven, and improve the world we live in?
It would change lives, change science, change the way people view each other and the planet we live on.
Shouldn't you be chasing down scientists yourself?
Rather than squandering this world-changing, science-reinventing discovery on playing dream games with friends?
I don't think it's anything new. I think science has just ignored it because of many people have been doing this for thousands of years. I'd much rather there be hundreds or thousands of shared lucid dreamers in the Western world, all talking about it, than chasing down scientists because I don't think what Raven Knight and I are doing is really that special.
Seems very irresponsible to me, sorry but it really does.
It's the equivilant to discovering the cure for cancer, and also discovering the cure has some fun side effect... then just messing around with the side effect with your mates and not doing something good for the world with it.
Interesting that you bring that up. I am pretty sure I know the cure for cancer: high THC hemp oil. I tell people about it all the time. I have not heard of a single person at least reviewing the free movie you can watch on google video called Run From the Cure. People just get pissed off at me when I tell them, or they think I'm insane.
If it's real, it is a revolution to the entire world, and you have a responsibility to share that with humanity.
I do feel responsible for sharing that with humanity. I feel responsible for teaching people who are willing to learn. I do not feel responsible for convincing skeptics. A biologist, a scientist wrote The Sense of Being stared at, which provides a lot of evidence for telepathic communication, but it didn't make the headlines. Things like this happen all the time, but it gets mostly ignored.
If it's not, then you are just deluding yourself and others.
But if it is real, and you choose to use it simply for your own entertainment, that is incredibly selfish of you.
I don't use it for my own entertainment, though shared lucid dreams are amazingly fun and epic. I explore the other dimension. I have had some absolutely terrifying experiences because of it, feeling like my body was being turned inside out, but I still press on despite my fear, because I feel this realm must be explored.
I'm sure there is a university near you, would it really be that hard to visit it, and share your knowledge with the world?
I don't want to be a guru. I don't want accolades or followers. I don't want acclaim. I just want to teach so many others to do this, I fade into the background, and become one of many. If there are many people sharing lucid dreams all around the world, it would be much easier to convince mainstream Western society that it's real.
Just in case my question got buried, what are you willing to do to share lucid dreams with me?
|
|
Bookmarks