Thread: what evidence is there that the world is still out there when we close our eyes?

Originally Posted by Dnote

there isnt proof that it your wrong, however there is proof that it is correct.

Btw, just because quantum physics is so obscure, why does that make it any more likely to be real or not? You have all these approaches and theories, like the multiverse theory particularly for Schrödinger's cat, but in the end we still can't be sure. Kinda links back to string theory though I think, and maybe our reality isn't only distorted, but completely non-existent in the first place.

These paradoxes blow my mind.

Originally Posted by Dnote

glad i read this. there isnt proof that it your wrong, however there is proof that it is correct.

through quantum mechanics, subatomic particles behave as wave lengths when not being observered, or measured if you will. see the double slit experiment on youtube, quantum mechanics is as mind blowing as lucid dreaming i kid you not.

basicly, subatomic particles behave differntly in the absence consciousness. one theory is there wave length is really an equation and when there observed/measured *measured has sort of a different meaning in this text* and when the subatomic particles are observed they collapse into the equation, thus creating everything we know, but if you think about it, only where we are observing,measuring in that sense i mean hearing, seeing, feeling are all acts of measuring and observing.

and its funny what you said about reality, as an idol of mine once said;
"Reality is nothing but an illusion, albeit a persistent one." Albert Einestien

i do believe that to be true, knowing what i do about the quantum world and how the behave and know, almost as if there alive or aware of the fact that we are around them and they behave differntly.

if a tree falls in the middle of a forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a noise? well first off, is there really a tree then? or even a forest?

or something along the lines of, if u put a cat in a box, and put a cyanide release capsule in the box of the cat with a timer for the capsule to release cyanide gas, but have the timer random so it could go off at any time. now, without being able to observe the cat or the cyanide capsule you would'nt know wether the cat was alive or dead, therefor the cat is alive and dead at the same time, and the cyanide capsule is released and isnt. it is both untill it is observed and the subatomic particles behave one way, or the other.

wow good stuff man! this is exactly the kind of thing i'm talking about! i've often wondered if, in a dream, you are in a building with no windows is there anything outside of it BEFORE you walk out? like in a video game the level you are in is the only thing that exists until the next one is loaded. is this the same with dreams? does your brain "load" one big dream world like twenty square blocks of a city and all the insides and outsides of buildings and then it has to load more when you try to walk out of the area? or (more likely) does it just load what is directly in your field of vision which is why things change hilariously? and for that matter after what you just said about quantum theory, do areas with no one in them exist or do the quantum particles "load" them when you look at them? fun stuff and yes paraknight, very mind blowing lol!

Originally Posted by sleepyzac

wow good stuff man! this is exactly the kind of thing i'm talking about! i've often wondered if, in a dream, you are in a building with no windows is there anything outside of it BEFORE you walk out? like in a video game the level you are in is the only thing that exists until the next one is loaded. is this the same with dreams? does your brain "load" one big dream world like twenty square blocks of a city and all the insides and outsides of buildings and then it has to load more when you try to walk out of the area? or (more likely) does it just load what is directly in your field of vision which is why things change hilariously? and for that matter after what you just said about quantum theory, do areas with no one in them exist or do the quantum particles "load" them when you look at them? fun stuff and yes paraknight, very mind blowing lol!

I guess all we can hope for are glitches that would make us suspect that something is wrong and try to unplug "the machine", break the chains and get out of the cave. Maybe in time we might find some on the quantum level

I've never met/seen this "God" fellow. I've stood in a field of grass. I've ripped grass from the root, thrown grass at people whom I assume exist. Therefore, I believe in grass.

Originally Posted by Cacophony

I've never met/seen this "God" fellow. I've stood in a field of grass. I've ripped grass from the root, thrown grass at people whom I assume exist. Therefore, I believe in grass.

If those are the criteria you define reality by, then there are tons of things you cannot prove the existence of that we otherwise know to be "real". Tons.

Originally Posted by Cacophony

I've never met/seen this "God" fellow. I've stood in a field of grass. I've ripped grass from the root, thrown grass at people whom I assume exist. Therefore, I believe in grass.

i like it, simple, yet elegant!

Originally Posted by Paraknight

If those are the criteria you define reality by, then there are tons of things you cannot prove the existence of that we otherwise know to be "real". Tons.

yeah you have a point. if thats reality then you can't count on space or stars or clouds or the bottom of the ocean, gases, actually most things in science cannot really be touched and seen as real directly. so much of scientific "fact" is just stuff that hasn't been proven wrong yet. for example neptune is covered in such and such gases. we have no idea whether this is true or not, no one has sampled it and tested it. it's just theory that has been around long enough and no one can say otherwise with any certainty. also stars are hydrogen and helium for certain. really??? zero physical evidence for this. it's just an outlandish conception. stars could be anything from substances that don't exist on earth to mythological deities. i could say the middle star in orions belt is actually made of magic glowing cheese and it would be as legitimate because it's just an idea that has no real solid proof!!! now before a bunch of people correct me with scientific jargon i realize there are reasons people say these things and equations and methods and all kinds of "evidence". i'm just saying there is no PHYSICAL evidence. like picking up a blade of grass you can break it down, test parts of it, decide what to call what and what substances are found elsewhere in the world and make comparisons based on that but this kind of scientific method cannot and will not ever be used on stars and many other things that are beyond us as humans. in a universal court our "facts" beyond things here on our planet would be called circumstantial, conjecture, or just plain made up.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

That is a great book, TJuulsgaard! A bit of a time commitment, but still pretty awesome. I've never been comfortable with his explanation, however. I don't know why he would theorize/ assume that his OBE experiences are more "real" than his waking life experiences. Why assume the waking world is the more limited view? The waking world certainly feels more stable, consistent, and reliable than the OBE world. We can easily share it with others, it is always there, it doesn't take any mental gymnastics or drugs to experience. By definition, the waking world is the most "real," because it is the one we interact with (and in) the most.

Obviously we are limited by our senses, and only experience a fraction of what is really "out there." I think experiencing dreams and OBEs makes that fact painfully obvious. It is so easy to be fooled! We are fooling ourselves all day, every day, as we create a model of reality for ourselves. This doesn't mean we can magically extend ourselves beyond our limitations if we just imagine hard enough.

It is humbling to experience, first hand, that we live in a limited and illusory world. It is arrogant to imagine we have the ability to transcend these limitations. I believe we have the tools to understand and accept the problem, but not the tools to solve it.

You are right, that the OBE-worlds seems less stable and I also believe that we have to be careful to not always being in pursuit of getting out there - we can't afford to miss out on "real life".

But I think the reason why some of us devote a lot of energy on trying to achieve OBE's and such is because we need answers. Why are we here? That little question that can be pursued a whole life-time and in many ways take over the actual purpose of your life - or maybe becomes the meaning of life.

Why am I here and does everything just end when I die - am I going to see my 3 kids, wife, mother, father, brother and so on again some time when I'm dead? So you see my quest was initiated by the fact that I have SO much in my real physical life. OBE's are not something I pursue to get a way from real life - but to get a bigger picture of things. Science can't really give it and so I have to look elsewhere - alot of books including "My Big Toe" can give me some hope that the guy writing it isn't a big liar and that their experiences are real. If I can verify for myselves by actually getting a glimpse and to some degree get the answer to "Why am I here, where am I going?"

Then that would make my everyday-life much more reassuring. Maybe give me some kind of peace - and remove the fear for the unknown (we all have death-fear to some degree, unconsciouss or not).

I don't think it is arrogant wanting to go beyond our boundaries - according to T. Campbell it is our lifes purpose to raise our consciousness and by doing that we also get acces to non-physical -realities and begin to experience psychic phenomenons - I think, as both Eckhart Tolle and mr. Campbell says that it is the evolution of mankind to go beyond our physical borders.

Originally Posted by TJuulsgaard

You are right, that the OBE-worlds seems less stable and I also believe that we have to be careful to not always being in pursuit of getting out there - we can't afford to miss out on "real life".

But I think the reason why some of us devote a lot of energy on trying to achieve OBE's and such is because we need answers. Why are we here? That little question that can be pursued a whole life-time and in many ways take over the actual purpose of your life - or maybe becomes the meaning of life.

Why am I here and does everything just end when I die - am I going to see my 3 kids, wife, mother, father, brother and so on again some time when I'm dead? So you see my quest was initiated by the fact that I have SO much in my real physical life. OBE's are not something I pursue to get a way from real life - but to get a bigger picture of things. Science can't really give it and so I have to look elsewhere - alot of books including "My Big Toe" can give me some hope that the guy writing it isn't a big liar and that their experiences are real. If I can verify for myselves by actually getting a glimpse and to some degree get the answer to "Why am I here, where am I going?"

Then that would make my everyday-life much more reassuring. Maybe give me some kind of peace - and remove the fear for the unknown (we all have death-fear to some degree, unconsciouss or not).

I don't think it is arrogant wanting to go beyond our boundaries - according to T. Campbell it is our lifes purpose to raise our consciousness and by doing that we also get acces to non-physical -realities and begin to experience psychic phenomenons - I think, as both Eckhart Tolle and mr. Campbell says that it is the evolution of mankind to go beyond our physical borders.

yeah death is terrifying. it's interesting though because for many it's the fear of not having what they have now. for me though, it's fear of what happens after you die. i'm happy in general in my life but if i look at the big picture life sucks and i can't get around that. if i had some kind of guarantee that everything stops when you die, death wouldn't scare me in the slightest. i don't want to be reborn or go into some kind of after life, i want out! i take solace in buddhist theory with a touch of the christian beliefs i was raised with and a few sprinkles of scientific theory. actually when it comes to science a lot of it agrees with the ancient teachings of the buddha. but not so much with christianity...

I don't think that you have to fear what comes after "death" - so many people have Out of body-experiences, where they just know that this is like "the afterlife". They seem so sure that they don't really want to go back, and when they do, they live their life with much more peace - now that they are convinced that the "soul" survives the death of their body.

Also many of these experiences shows that your thinking is somewhat different out of body than in real life - they don't feel the same attachment to real world and they feel at home. Maybe its because as we leave our body, we also leave behind the fearbased ego-thinking, we all have when walking around here on planet earth ; )


Don't be disapointed with the world out there, acoording to Campbell, William Buhlman and to some extent Eckhart Tolle this place is supposed to be a training-ground for our consciousness - we have to interact in a world with a fixed ruleset, so we can evolve. I may even be so bold to say that mankind is arrogant to actually believe that we know everything and that we are the center of the universe. As Campbell would say: We see things in a little picture, but we need to start seeing it in a bigger picture. We use little picture science and can't explain a lot of things - but what can't be explained doesn't exist within little picture science, so it is ridiculed by little picture scientists (we are all to some degree little picture scientists)

I know this all sounds a bit heavy - but thats my thoughts on life and what comes after it at the moment.

Originally Posted by TJuulsgaard

I don't think that you have to fear what comes after "death" - so many people have Out of body-experiences, where they just know that this is like "the afterlife". They seem so sure that they don't really want to go back, and when they do, they live their life with much more peace - now that they are convinced that the "soul" survives the death of their body.

Also many of these experiences shows that your thinking is somewhat different out of body than in real life - they don't feel the same attachment to real world and they feel at home. Maybe its because as we leave our body, we also leave behind the fearbased ego-thinking, we all have when walking around here on planet earth ; )


Don't be disapointed with the world out there, acoording to Campbell, William Buhlman and to some extent Eckhart Tolle this place is supposed to be a training-ground for our consciousness - we have to interact in a world with a fixed ruleset, so we can evolve. I may even be so bold to say that mankind is arrogant to actually believe that we know everything and that we are the center of the universe. As Campbell would say: We see things in a little picture, but we need to start seeing it in a bigger picture. We use little picture science and can't explain a lot of things - but what can't be explained doesn't exist within little picture science, so it is ridiculed by little picture scientists (we are all to some degree little picture scientists)

I know this all sounds a bit heavy - but thats my thoughts on life and what comes after it at the moment.

doesn't sound anything but refreshing my friend! this is how i think on a daily basis and most people when you talk to them about this kind of stuff are just like "huh, weird." they just don't care. i do NOT get it either! how could the eternal nature of the universe be boring???

Yeah I know exactly what you mean... I try to have these deep conversations with my wife and sometimes friends... but they all seem like it is not important to them... Maybe it isn't supposed to be. But I can't help thinking about it

btw: if you want to try out My Big Toe. You can read the full thing here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6To...page&q&f=false

I do advise you to buy it though... it's great, mindblowing and very trustworthy - and much nicer to read 800 pages without having to look at a computerscreen the whole way through...

Originally Posted by TJuulsgaard

Yeah I know exactly what you mean... I try to have these deep conversations with my wife and sometimes friends... but they all seem like it is not important to them... Maybe it isn't supposed to be. But I can't help thinking about it

btw: if you want to try out My Big Toe. You can read the full thing here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6To...page&q&f=false

I do advise you to buy it though... it's great, mindblowing and very trustworthy - and much nicer to read 800 pages without having to look at a computerscreen the whole way through...

yeah same with my fiance', she just doesn't want to hear about it and has few thoughts on the topic. i think it's just a lack of peoples' ability to really think about and admit to themselves that they are eventually going to die. while they don't deny it i think a lot if not most people just let it be the last page of the book that they suspect is there but don't really acknowledge, like they're trying not to spoil it for themselves. i like to think that this average type of persons mentality will, at the time nearing death, collapse and make them freak out and people like you and i will be more contemplative and calm. i used to be less involved in thinking about these things when i was young and full of booze and cigarettes because i was numb to it but even then it still concerned me and i still had many conversations about it. yeah if anything i'll buy it because reading long things online fries the eyes. i will skim a bit of your link though, thanx

doesnt the alarm clock wake you up? and that's external

Yeah, but if the whole world is made up by your own thinking and only exists in your own consciousness then thats another matter. I believe that we all share a common conscciousness and therefore we are part of a bigger system.

Originally Posted by acillis

doesnt the alarm clock wake you up? and that's external

exactly. it may be "external" but people have false awakenings to dream alarm clocks all the time. they get up start getting ready for work and then wake up for real and realize their alarm never went off or they don't even own one.

The Buddhist definition of reality is that which is permanent. Even the waking life, outer world is not permanent, everything is in a flux, just like a dream. Atoms are flying through you replacing old atoms, cells are living and dying within you, all your cells and atoms are constantly being replaced. You are born, you age, you grow old, you die. Weather comes and goes. Mountains fall into the sea. Stars are born, stars die. the universe is born and the Universe dies. This is not permanent. It is just like a dream. A dream may be less even more transitory, may be less "real", but waking life is just a false awakening.
That which is real is only this NOW moment where I exist. The sense of I is permanent. The moment NOW is permanent. I and NOW are the same thing. In fact, what makes NOW real is that I exist only NOW. If it wasn't for I, NOW wouldn't even be real.
This knowledge of I is the same knowledge of I that happens in a lucid dream.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

That which is real is only this NOW moment where I exist. The sense of I is permanent. The moment NOW is permanent. I and NOW are the same thing. In fact, what makes NOW real is that I exist only NOW. If it wasn't for I, NOW wouldn't even be real.
This knowledge of I is the same knowledge of I that happens in a lucid dream.

Could you elaborate on that? Don't humans come and go too? Before I was born I didn't have a sense of "I" and who knows how it will be after death. And NOW comes and goes instantaneously. Only now do I realise that the moment I clicked the reply button is long past and doesn't feel like NOW any more.

Originally Posted by Paraknight

Could you elaborate on that? Don't humans come and go too? Before I was born I didn't have a sense of "I" and who knows how it will be after death. And NOW comes and goes instantaneously. Only now do I realise that the moment I clicked the reply button is long past and doesn't feel like NOW any more.

Humans come and go also. The body dies. You just don't remember when you were little or before you were born. When we develop memory when we are young, we forget who we really are, because we start believing in the memory and forget about the now moment.

The Now moment seems to come and go if you are looking in the past and the future. The future becomes the past but the now moment is always now. The moment you clicked the reply button is in the past. It isn't now. Now you are reading these words. But that also will be in the past as soon as you comprehend the words and form an opinion about them, as to whether they are true or false.

The mind is constantly changing, like dreams. To dwell in the now continuously and remember your "Iness" rather than your egoic "me-ness" takes meditation, which helps you transcend the mind. When you transcend the mind, and dwell in the now, without the filter of the mind dragging you into the past or the future, you will see that you are living in a vertical dimension which intersects the horizontal line of time. This horizontal line is always moving and changing. The vertical line always remains the same, it is the eternal Now, where it intersects is what we normally think of now in time, stuck between the past and the future. It is like the spokes of a wheel. We are the hub of the wheel, which stays still, while the rim is always rolling. The rim is time. The hub is eternity. And whichever spoke is the one that is touching the part of the wheel that is in contact with the ground is the now. The eternal now is the hub. Before you were born you existed as the hub only. But being born means traveling down the spoke that contacts the rim. Everytime you drop the mind of time and dwell in the now the reality of the hub flows through the spoke making NOW real. Reality from the hub can only flow to Now. The hub is real, according to Buddhism, the Universe is not, because it is relative and changing like a dream.

The past is no more, it exists only in our mind and our memory, like a dream. The future doesn't exist yet, it also exists in our minds as hopes, wishes, and fears and expectations, like a dream. The now moment in time is infinitesimal, atomic, like a pinhole where the self shines through, making everything real.

What is real about this world if the past and the future don't exist? It is the fact that you are here to witness it in the NOW. Feel your I-ness, and how it is the only real thing there is, and how it makes everything real only in the now.

The fact that you don't remember if you were an I before you were born doesn't mean anything. There was NOW before you had a body. You existed in the vertical dimension but you had not intersected the horizontal dimension yet.

I realize that this is had for me to put into words, and probably therefore hard to understand. Everything is relatively true, the universe exists relatively. Hence the theory of relativity. But it is the consciousness that exists only NOW that is not relative.

Einstein's theory of relativity is the same as the Buddha's teaching on impermanence.

Originally Posted by TJuulsgaard

Don't be disapointed with the world out there, acoording to Campbell, William Buhlman and to some extent Eckhart Tolle this place is supposed to be a training-ground for our consciousness - we have to interact in a world with a fixed ruleset, so we can evolve. I may even be so bold to say that mankind is arrogant to actually believe that we know everything and that we are the center of the universe. As Campbell would say: We see things in a little picture, but we need to start seeing it in a bigger picture. We use little picture science and can't explain a lot of things - but what can't be explained doesn't exist within little picture science, so it is ridiculed by little picture scientists (we are all to some degree little picture scientists)

I know this all sounds a bit heavy - but thats my thoughts on life and what comes after it at the moment.

Why do you think you are being bold about it? You are right on. Humans are arrogant, we think we have ALL the answers, yet, we have only touched a drop in an ocean. The fact that science also doesn't consider non-physical material further soldifies this argument, since, not perceiving something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The particle duality theory is pretty interesting seeing as how it behaves differently when observed as if it is alive like us. Schroedinger's cat is also interesting as well That "My Big Toe" book sounds pretty interesting to say the least, thanks for the link

Originally Posted by BigFan

Why do you think you are being bold about it? You are right on. Humans are arrogant, we think we have ALL the answers, yet, we have only touched a drop in an ocean. The fact that science also doesn't consider non-physical material further soldifies this argument, since, not perceiving something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I second that. But science does very much consider non-physical things. I see what your getting at though. Imo philosophy is a science in itself but we never really classify investigating the existence of qualia, for instance, as "science".

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I realize that this is had for me to put into words, and probably therefore hard to understand. Everything is relatively true, the universe exists relatively. Hence the theory of relativity. But it is the consciousness that exists only NOW that is not relative.

Einstein's theory of relativity is the same as the Buddha's teaching on impermanence.

My limited knowledge of the teachings of Buddha substantially influences my overall philosophy of life. I had to read your post twice though to understand what you're saying; I could type pages on the theory of relativity but I'll need to read more on this. I would draw some connections to Freud but I'll do that once I know what I'm talking about. Looks like it take more than a single post to explain this kind of concept especially for a man of science to understand. I'm off to google.

Originally Posted by Paraknight

I second that. But science does very much consider non-physical things. I see what your getting at though. Imo philosophy is a science in itself but we never really classify investigating the existence of qualia, for instance, as "science".

Well, you can say that parapsychology studies these non-physical phenomenons, but, psychology is considered an art