Bin Laden's letter to America- The truth about what Al Qaeda demands

[Universal Mind]

I have found myself telling people many times in the past few weeks that Al Qaeda's demands on the United States go far beyond the very unrealistic demand that we completely withdraw from the Middle East. I keep getting told that it is a lie that Al Qaeda hates us for our freedom and our lifestyles. I keep explaining to the people I am debating that Bin Laden's letter to the United States goes into trememdous detail about how they despise us because we do not have an Islamic theocratic government with the Koran as our law book and because we are seen as a bunch of drugging up sex maniacs who influence the rest of the world and have a tremendous influence on the rest of the West. The letter flat out demands that we give up all of that and become a bunch of tight ass fundamentalist Muslims with a country without drugs and fornication. How realistic is that? I am so tired of explaining that to the same people repeatedly that I decided to start a thread on it. Please read the answer to Q2 of the letter. Q1's answer says that we were attacked because Al Qaeda hates our Middle East policies, but the answer to Q2 specifically goes into great detail about the demands Al Qaeda has on us to become an Islamic state and change our supossedly sinful party ways and to even stop stock trading and accumulating interest on investments. Please read this before you ever tell me that Al Qaeda does not have a problem with American freedom or that all we have to do to get them to stop hating us is withdraw from the Middle East. The claim is false, and here is the proof... http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/11-24-2002-30919.asp Near the bottom of the letter, Bin Laden says, "If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare to fight with the Islamic nation." So you see what Al Qaeda's demands really are. It is not as simple as changing our policies regarding the Middle East. It is universes more unrealistic than that. Every time somebody makes the false claims in a debate, I am just going to post a link to this thread.

[Alric]

I am still wondering if you actually read it yourself. The great detail he goes into is about our countries amoral behavoir and not our religion. Where our religion comes in is that he is saying its the cause of our amoral behavoir, and if we followed his religion it would get rid of it. His hate is clearly directed at that actual behavoir and not the religion itself. The amoral behavoir is stuff many people in our own country disagrees with. Its very unfortunate that he is is the way he is, because he actually has a few fair points, even if he is a crazy ass.

[Universal Mind]

I am still wondering if you actually read it yourself. The great detail he goes into is about our countries amoral behavoir and not our religion. Where our religion comes in is that he is saying its the cause of our amoral behavoir, and if we followed his religion it would get rid of it. His hate is clearly directed at that actual behavoir and not the religion itself. The amoral behavoir is stuff many people in our own country disagrees with. Its very unfortunate that he is is the way he is, because he actually has a few fair points, even if he is a crazy ass. You did not have enough time since your last post to read that letter. Read it, or please don't argue with me about it. Did you read my post? I said that Q1's answer involves our history of Middle Eastern policy, but in answer to Q2 he goes off about a whole world of things he considers sinful and demands that we give them up. Then he says that if we don't meet "all" of his demands that we must "prepare to fight with the Islamic nation". It says that. I'm serious. Read it and see for yourself.

[Alric]

Yes I did read it, did you? I mean the entire thing, not pulling out one senetence so you can use out of context. If you read his list of things that are sinful, many of them are true and many are things people in our own country has problems with. Hes not just making up random stuff, and hes not hating us because we are 'free'. He hates us for the stupid crap we do, and yes some of the stupid crap is true.

[Universal Mind]

Yes I did read it, did you? I mean the entire thing, not pulling out one senetence so you can use out of context. If you read his list of things that are sinful, many of them are true and many are things people in our own country has problems with. Hes not just making up random stuff, and hes not hating us because we are 'free'. He hates us for the stupid crap we do, and yes some of the stupid crap is true. So we should outlaw gambling, all recreational drugs, stock trading, investment interest, homosexuality, fornication, female modeling, and all of the other things he listed? He demanded that we do and said that if we don't meet "all" of his demands that we are to "prepare to fight with the Islamic nation". So you support the meeting of "all" of the demands? Seriously, do you?

[Alric]

I never said I did. I am just pointing out it clearly states his problem isn't with our freedoms, but the stupid crap we do. If you are going to discuss the issue its important to make that point clear. Its not our freedom, or our religion he has a problem with. Its the bad choices many people in our country make. And the bad choices our government makes around the world.

[Universal Mind]

I never said I did. I am just pointing out it clearly states his problem isn't with our freedoms, but the stupid crap we do. If you are going to discuss the issue its important to make that point clear. Its not our freedom, or our religion he has a problem with. Its the bad choices many people in our country make. And the bad choices our government makes around the world. He demands that we get rid of our freedom to do those things I mentioned. He also demands that we make our country an Islamic state with the Koran as our law book. Yes, the letter demands both of those things.

[dodobird]

I never said I did. I am just pointing out it clearly states his problem isn't with our freedoms, but the stupid crap we do. If you are going to discuss the issue its important to make that point clear. Its not our freedom, or our religion he has a problem with. Its the bad choices many people in our country make. And the bad choices our government makes around the world. Freedom means having the right to choose. If he abolish all the choices that he thinks are bad, than you are left with no freedom what so ever.

[Oneironaut Zero]

Just for the record, I recommend that anyone who takes the time to read this does, in fact, read the answers to Q1. The reasons they hate us and the reasons we are fighting are two different things. (And I would say I'm disappointed that you tried to deflect attention away from that section, UM, but I don't know if addressing the reason we are actually at war with them was part of your reason for starting this thread, so I'll give you the benefit of doubt.) Just as UM will post this for whoever says they don't hate us for our freedoms, I will post it for anyone who says we were simply attacked (and driven into war) because they hate our freedoms.

[ClouD]

Americans have no freedom. No-one does. The illusion is accepted, and the rules, left uncontested. "An ideal form of government is democracy tempered with assassination." ~ Voltaire

[Alric]

Most of his problems have nothing to do with freedom though. The US foreign policies they are mad at are not about giving us choices. Polluting the world isn't a free choice issue. We have laws and stuff against that and its wrong. No one has the right to say, "Well I am free so I should be allowed to dump toxic waste in the river." It just doesn't work like that. Most of this stuff isn't about the freedom of choice but taking responsibility for the things we do. Our government doesn't have the right to pick and choose which countries should have nukes and which shouldn't. And we are hypocrites when we try to enforce some rules on a group of people and then changes the rules when it applies to someone else. The fact that many of things listed are illegal also show this isn't a free choice issue.

[Original Poster]

Yeah I don't see a connection to freedom in his letter. He seems much more intent on being free in his own mind, and the rest of that is religious bullshit countering westerner's blasphemous ways and all that nonsense. The guy is an uberzealout, he thinks, like so many poor souls here, that heaven is exclusive. In that way, this letter is more like a really angry, repressed jehova's witness' message.

[Universal Mind]

Just for the record, I recommend that anyone who takes the time to read this does, in fact, read the answers to Q1. The reasons they hate us and the reasons we are fighting are two different things. (And I would say I'm disappointed that you tried to deflect attention away from that section, UM, but I don't know if addressing the reason we are actually at war with them was part of your reason for starting this thread, so I'll give you the benefit of doubt.) Just as UM will post this for whoever says they don't hate us for our freedoms, I will post it for anyone who says we were simply attacked (and driven into war) because they hate our freedoms. Have you read all of my posts in this thread? On two occasions, I have said that Q1's answer talks about how their reason for attacking us was our history of policies in the Middle East. I started this thread because people keep saying that if we withdraw from the Middle East Al Qaeda will no longer want to attack us. The answer to Q2 flat out shows that that assessment is false. Also, the answer to Q2 suggests to me that the answer to Q1 was less than totally honest. Q1's answer says that we were attacked because Al Qaeda hates our Middle East policies, but the answer to Q2 specifically goes into great detail about the demands Al Qaeda has on us to become an Islamic state and change our supossedly sinful party ways and to even stop stock trading and accumulating interest on investments. Please read this before you ever tell me that Al Qaeda does not have a problem with American freedom or that all we have to do to get them to stop hating us is withdraw from the Middle East. Yeah I don't see a connection to freedom in his letter. He keeps bitching about what we "permit". He demands that we stop permitting it. And then he says after all of that anti-freedom babble, "If you fail to respond to all of these conditions, then prepare to fight with the Islamic nation."

[Original Poster]

That's because he's talking to a people, not the government. He's talking about what we, as people, permit our government to do and our culture to do, and I agree he's a religious self-righteous wacko, but if Pat Robertson had the power he'd be doing that shit, too.

[Universal Mind]

That's because he's talking to a people, not the government. He's talking about what we, as people, permit our government to do and our culture to do, and I agree he's a religious self-righteous wacko, but if Pat Robertson had the power he'd be doing that shit, too. It's the government that does permitting. The citizens just make decisions for themselves and about who gets into the government. And what does Pat Robertson have to do with anything? We are not at war with him. For whatever this has to do with anything, I don't think that nut job Pat Robertson would have a large organization of suicide bombers against people for not being Christians. He would just try to make prayers a school function and put people in prison for going to strip clubs and that sort of thing.

[R.D.735]

Honestly, I haven't read the letter, and I don't think I need to. I don't care what UBL thinks or what he wants us to think. He's crazy, after all. The country should do what it feels is best for itself instead of thinking his ideas have the slightest chance of being implemented if we do not actively oppose him. They do not. I really don't trust Bin Laden. Why would he tell the truth about his motives? Why wouldn't he simply pander to every militant group in the middle east to raise recruitment? Why should I believe him if he says an army of angry Muslims will destroy us, or that Allah's wrath will strike us down? Our fervent desire to do the opposite of everything he suggests gives him the power to manipulate us. Has he not done so already?

[Universal Mind]

I don't see what we are doing as the opposite of what he demands. It's just a matter of ignoring his demands and treating him like the out of control rabid animal that he is.

[Original Poster]

What is your stance on dissent, Um?

[Oneironaut Zero]

Have you read all of my posts in this thread? On two occasions, I have said that Q1's answer talks about how their reason for attacking us was our history of policies in the Middle East. Ah, shit. My bad, man. I was reading through the replies quickly, after reading the whole letter, and I completely missed that sentence (as that was really the only one you addressed that as being the reason they stated that they attacked us. Heh. Oops. Also, the answer to Q2 suggests to me that the answer to Q1 was less than totally honest. I can somewhat agree to that, but only to a very small degree. I highly doubt that their hatred for our way of life would have led to such warfare, if we weren't guilty for the actions stated in the answers to Q1, but, of course, I can't prove that, and it's only an assumption.

[Universal Mind]

What is your stance on dissent, Um? I'm very against it. That's why I'm always agreeing with everybody on everything.

[Original Poster]

You seem to have a love affair with people that are trying to screw you over, that's all. I wonder how you'll feel when you see people killing each other over a cup of gasoline in this country.

[Universal Mind]

You seem to have a love affair with people that are trying to screw you over, that's all. I wonder how you'll feel when you see people killing each other over a cup of gasoline in this country. I am a few light years away from knowing where you have gone in this conversation. You go from Bin Laden's death threats against people with infidel status to my opinion of dissent to love affair with manipulators to people killing each other over a cup of gasoline. Could you explain to me what in the Hell this is supposed to be about?

[Original Poster]

I am a few light years away from knowing where you have gone in this conversation. You go from Bin Laden's death threats against people with infidel status to my opinion of dissent to love affair with manipulators to people killing each other over a cup of gasoline. Could you explain to me what in the Hell this is supposed to be about? You're a sycophant and that kind of behavior is going to bring about a violent depression like we've never seen.

[Universal Mind]

You're a sycophant and that kind of behavior is going to bring about a violent depression like we've never seen. Right, I know exactly what you are saying now that you put it that way. You must not know what the queers are doing to the soil.

[conisag]

I am still wondering if you actually read it yourself. The great detail he goes into is about our countries amoral behavoir and not our religion. Where our religion comes in is that he is saying its the cause of our amoral behavoir, and if we followed his religion it would get rid of it. His hate is clearly directed at that actual behavoir and not the religion itself. The amoral behavoir is stuff many people in our own country disagrees with. Its very unfortunate that he is is the way he is, because he actually has a few fair points, even if he is a crazy ass. In reply to the quaoted. I cant believe your actually dared to say that, youve seiously offended me im white-and western and extremely proud because a muslim country tells me my ways are bad we should all change, are you fucking kidding me? the west is the most advanced and morally better parts of the world and bin laden, what can i say for him, infact what can i say for you? "he has a fair good few points" then why dont you go and join him? if i had half the chance id probably kill you myself your post was sick you obviously didnt take the time to read the OP's letter and you obviously dont have a half-witted clue about Terrorism or what it is to be western.