Bin Laden's letter to America- The truth about what Al Qaeda demands

[Universal Mind]

I have found myself telling people many times in the past few weeks that Al Qaeda's demands on the United States go far beyond the very unrealistic demand that we completely withdraw from the Middle East. I keep getting told that it is a lie that Al Qaeda hates us for our freedom and our lifestyles. I keep explaining to the people I am debating that Bin Laden's letter to the United States goes into trememdous detail about how they despise us because we do not have an Islamic theocratic government with the Koran as our law book and because we are seen as a bunch of drugging up sex maniacs who influence the rest of the world and have a tremendous influence on the rest of the West. The letter flat out demands that we give up all of that and become a bunch of tight ass fundamentalist Muslims with a country without drugs and fornication. How realistic is that? I am so tired of explaining that to the same people repeatedly that I decided to start a thread on it. Please read the answer to Q2 of the letter. Q1's answer says that we were attacked because Al Qaeda hates our Middle East policies, but the answer to Q2 specifically goes into great detail about the demands Al Qaeda has on us to become an Islamic state and change our supossedly sinful party ways and to even stop stock trading and accumulating interest on investments. Please read this before you ever tell me that Al Qaeda does not have a problem with American freedom or that all we have to do to get them to stop hating us is withdraw from the Middle East. The claim is false, and here is the proof... http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/11-24-2002-30919.asp Near the bottom of the letter, Bin Laden says, "If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare to fight with the Islamic nation." So you see what Al Qaeda's demands really are. It is not as simple as changing our policies regarding the Middle East. It is universes more unrealistic than that. Every time somebody makes the false claims in a debate, I am just going to post a link to this thread.

[Alric]

I am still wondering if you actually read it yourself. The great detail he goes into is about our countries amoral behavoir and not our religion. Where our religion comes in is that he is saying its the cause of our amoral behavoir, and if we followed his religion it would get rid of it. His hate is clearly directed at that actual behavoir and not the religion itself. The amoral behavoir is stuff many people in our own country disagrees with. Its very unfortunate that he is is the way he is, because he actually has a few fair points, even if he is a crazy ass.

[Universal Mind]

I am still wondering if you actually read it yourself. The great detail he goes into is about our countries amoral behavoir and not our religion. Where our religion comes in is that he is saying its the cause of our amoral behavoir, and if we followed his religion it would get rid of it. His hate is clearly directed at that actual behavoir and not the religion itself. The amoral behavoir is stuff many people in our own country disagrees with. Its very unfortunate that he is is the way he is, because he actually has a few fair points, even if he is a crazy ass. You did not have enough time since your last post to read that letter. Read it, or please don't argue with me about it. Did you read my post? I said that Q1's answer involves our history of Middle Eastern policy, but in answer to Q2 he goes off about a whole world of things he considers sinful and demands that we give them up. Then he says that if we don't meet "all" of his demands that we must "prepare to fight with the Islamic nation". It says that. I'm serious. Read it and see for yourself.

[Alric]

Yes I did read it, did you? I mean the entire thing, not pulling out one senetence so you can use out of context. If you read his list of things that are sinful, many of them are true and many are things people in our own country has problems with. Hes not just making up random stuff, and hes not hating us because we are 'free'. He hates us for the stupid crap we do, and yes some of the stupid crap is true.

[Universal Mind]

Yes I did read it, did you? I mean the entire thing, not pulling out one senetence so you can use out of context. If you read his list of things that are sinful, many of them are true and many are things people in our own country has problems with. Hes not just making up random stuff, and hes not hating us because we are 'free'. He hates us for the stupid crap we do, and yes some of the stupid crap is true. So we should outlaw gambling, all recreational drugs, stock trading, investment interest, homosexuality, fornication, female modeling, and all of the other things he listed? He demanded that we do and said that if we don't meet "all" of his demands that we are to "prepare to fight with the Islamic nation". So you support the meeting of "all" of the demands? Seriously, do you?

[Alric]

I never said I did. I am just pointing out it clearly states his problem isn't with our freedoms, but the stupid crap we do. If you are going to discuss the issue its important to make that point clear. Its not our freedom, or our religion he has a problem with. Its the bad choices many people in our country make. And the bad choices our government makes around the world.

[conisag]

I am still wondering if you actually read it yourself. The great detail he goes into is about our countries amoral behavoir and not our religion. Where our religion comes in is that he is saying its the cause of our amoral behavoir, and if we followed his religion it would get rid of it. His hate is clearly directed at that actual behavoir and not the religion itself. The amoral behavoir is stuff many people in our own country disagrees with. Its very unfortunate that he is is the way he is, because he actually has a few fair points, even if he is a crazy ass. In reply to the quaoted. I cant believe your actually dared to say that, youve seiously offended me im white-and western and extremely proud because a muslim country tells me my ways are bad we should all change, are you fucking kidding me? the west is the most advanced and morally better parts of the world and bin laden, what can i say for him, infact what can i say for you? "he has a fair good few points" then why dont you go and join him? if i had half the chance id probably kill you myself your post was sick you obviously didnt take the time to read the OP's letter and you obviously dont have a half-witted clue about Terrorism or what it is to be western.

[Alric]

Why is that? Because I am not so full of hate that I want to kill everyone? I mean you reply pretty much speaks for itself. You said you want to kill me because I disagree with you. Don't you think that might be a little to much? Don't you think you are overreacting here? Someone disagrees with you so you want to kill them? Is that the way a rational human being thinks?

[conisag]

Ok i apologize your post filled me with rage, its not your diagreeing i can take that but what if i told you i wanted to rape small children? because you dont agree is tyhere somthing wrong? i dont condone murder in actauly fact even thought i reacted in that way due to the fact i was furious, i hate terrorists or anti-westerners or people who Speek of them almost as good people, and i Cant stand westerners who seem to think of them as good people and fail to realize they are actually western and the place that they think is so bad they fail to look around at the good people there neighbours and everything "our bad ways" Imagine telling your western next door neighbour that they must be bad as a westerner. Its a pathetic thing installed/brainwashed into us that the west is bad, were all fat so were going to hell,were are paedophiles and were all taking advantage of what we were given were gready, we didnt invent develope and study hard with great people in our lands, no it seems to me by other countrys it is viewed that we were somhow given what we have we didnt build it.

[Alric]

I never said they were nice. I said they had reasons for what they do, and its more than, they hate freedom. Some of their reasons are actually valid. I never said western people are bad, but we do some times do bad stuff. A lot of it is done by our government. I am not trying to justify their actions or anything. I only think its important that you understand why people do the stuff they do. If they are friends or enemies, it doesn't matter. You should still try to understand why they do what they do. No one does stuff just because. And while I agree that many of them are insane, not all of them are, some of them have real reasons for it.

[juroara]

I'm in agreement with Alric. They don't hate us because we are 'free'. Asking us to stop our sinful ways - even if you don't concider them sins - isn't any different than us telling a nation to stop the injustice of their own people or else. This is about morality, not freedom, and yet it is about freedom and yet its not! What I mean is, you don't concider rape a freedom do you? You don't concider molesting a child freedom do you? Most americans accept this as unacceptable and don't see it as interfering with their freedom if its against the law. It's so terribly ironic and horrible. Maybe this is karmic payback for being an idiot nation. But sadly for this islamic nation, they are not going to see the victory they were expecting. "His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?" This is ironic because its the american constitution that is known for having the idea that there are God given rights because of a governing God. That no man, no country, no government, no king and take away these rights from you because of these higher governing laws. It's ironic in so many ways because this is an issue thats actually being talked about now in the spiritual communites - that america is trying to get rid of he laws which govern us through its materialistic science. Some of these governing laws of God include freedom *you cant express yourself as a spiritual being if science tells you have no spirit*- and also reaping what you sow - the result of your free will. One way our materialistic society goes against these God governing laws is the economy : no one is reaping what they have sown. CEOs reap a thousand times more than what they have not sown, and workers just about get squat. I still think america is currently dealing with something that it can't handle - politics is one thing. But if we are really dealing with a religious nation - religious wars are a thousand times more horrible than any political one x_X

[Universal Mind]

Asking us to stop our sinful ways - even if you don't concider them sins - isn't any different than us telling a nation to stop the injustice of their own people or else. This is about morality, not freedom, and yet it is about freedom and yet its not! Follow carefully: 1. Bin Laden says what we have to do to end their war against us. 2. Many of those things involve the ceasing of our permittance of supposedly sinful acts such as homosexuality, alcohol consumption, use of female models, stock trading, not having a government with the Koran as its law book, and simply NOT BEING MUSLIM. 3. Then he says, "If you fail to respond to ALL of these conditions, then prepare to fight with the Islamic Nation." THAT is hating us for our freedom and demanding that we no longer have it or else.

[juroara]

Follow carefully: 1. Bin Laden says what we have to do to end their war against us. 2. Many of those things involve the ceasing of our permittance of supposedly sinful acts such as homosexuality, alcohol consumption, use of female models, stock trading, not having a government with the Koran as its law book, and simply NOT BEING MUSLIM. 3. Then he says, "If you fail to respond to ALL of these conditions, then prepare to fight with the Islamic Nation." THAT is hating us for our freedom and demanding that we no longer have it or else. in our perspective only, because those are our freedoms. you don't need to look at terrorist groups to know that the muslim world does consider at the heart of what americans do - sinful - lustful and against every command of God. to them our freedoms are not freedoms, they are just sin. the difference is most muslims are not crazy who feel they are at war with us the hatred in my opinion didn't spawn because of 'freedom' or 'sin', but because of some threat we posed to them. They feel the western world will destroy their way of life and everything they believe in - well yes we can.

[ChrissyMaria]

Heres a simple question to you all: When Osama says prepare to face the islamic nation. Does he actually believe he speaks for all muslims? thats such a farce. If osama thinks he speaks for all islamic/muslims then he is DEAD WRONG, most muslims are law abiding citizens who struggle to get food on their table and the last thing they need is some asshole telling them to blow themselves up. The muslim nations themselves will rid their countries of terror eventually.

[Xaqaria]

In reply to the quaoted. I cant believe your actually dared to say that, youve seiously offended me im white-and western and extremely proud because a muslim country tells me my ways are bad we should all change, are you fucking kidding me? the west is the most advanced and morally better parts of the world and bin laden, what can i say for him, infact what can i say for you? "he has a fair good few points" then why dont you go and join him? if i had half the chance id probably kill you myself your post was sick you obviously didnt take the time to read the OP's letter and you obviously dont have a half-witted clue about Terrorism or what it is to be western. You must hate freedom.

[Universal Mind]

Just for the record, I recommend that anyone who takes the time to read this does, in fact, read the answers to Q1. The reasons they hate us and the reasons we are fighting are two different things. (And I would say I'm disappointed that you tried to deflect attention away from that section, UM, but I don't know if addressing the reason we are actually at war with them was part of your reason for starting this thread, so I'll give you the benefit of doubt.) Just as UM will post this for whoever says they don't hate us for our freedoms, I will post it for anyone who says we were simply attacked (and driven into war) because they hate our freedoms. Have you read all of my posts in this thread? On two occasions, I have said that Q1's answer talks about how their reason for attacking us was our history of policies in the Middle East. I started this thread because people keep saying that if we withdraw from the Middle East Al Qaeda will no longer want to attack us. The answer to Q2 flat out shows that that assessment is false. Also, the answer to Q2 suggests to me that the answer to Q1 was less than totally honest. Q1's answer says that we were attacked because Al Qaeda hates our Middle East policies, but the answer to Q2 specifically goes into great detail about the demands Al Qaeda has on us to become an Islamic state and change our supossedly sinful party ways and to even stop stock trading and accumulating interest on investments. Please read this before you ever tell me that Al Qaeda does not have a problem with American freedom or that all we have to do to get them to stop hating us is withdraw from the Middle East. Yeah I don't see a connection to freedom in his letter. He keeps bitching about what we "permit". He demands that we stop permitting it. And then he says after all of that anti-freedom babble, "If you fail to respond to all of these conditions, then prepare to fight with the Islamic nation."

[Original Poster]

That's because he's talking to a people, not the government. He's talking about what we, as people, permit our government to do and our culture to do, and I agree he's a religious self-righteous wacko, but if Pat Robertson had the power he'd be doing that shit, too.

[Universal Mind]

That's because he's talking to a people, not the government. He's talking about what we, as people, permit our government to do and our culture to do, and I agree he's a religious self-righteous wacko, but if Pat Robertson had the power he'd be doing that shit, too. It's the government that does permitting. The citizens just make decisions for themselves and about who gets into the government. And what does Pat Robertson have to do with anything? We are not at war with him. For whatever this has to do with anything, I don't think that nut job Pat Robertson would have a large organization of suicide bombers against people for not being Christians. He would just try to make prayers a school function and put people in prison for going to strip clubs and that sort of thing.

[R.D.735]

Honestly, I haven't read the letter, and I don't think I need to. I don't care what UBL thinks or what he wants us to think. He's crazy, after all. The country should do what it feels is best for itself instead of thinking his ideas have the slightest chance of being implemented if we do not actively oppose him. They do not. I really don't trust Bin Laden. Why would he tell the truth about his motives? Why wouldn't he simply pander to every militant group in the middle east to raise recruitment? Why should I believe him if he says an army of angry Muslims will destroy us, or that Allah's wrath will strike us down? Our fervent desire to do the opposite of everything he suggests gives him the power to manipulate us. Has he not done so already?

[Universal Mind]

I don't see what we are doing as the opposite of what he demands. It's just a matter of ignoring his demands and treating him like the out of control rabid animal that he is.

[Original Poster]

What is your stance on dissent, Um?

[Oneironaut Zero]

Have you read all of my posts in this thread? On two occasions, I have said that Q1's answer talks about how their reason for attacking us was our history of policies in the Middle East. Ah, shit. My bad, man. I was reading through the replies quickly, after reading the whole letter, and I completely missed that sentence (as that was really the only one you addressed that as being the reason they stated that they attacked us. Heh. Oops. Also, the answer to Q2 suggests to me that the answer to Q1 was less than totally honest. I can somewhat agree to that, but only to a very small degree. I highly doubt that their hatred for our way of life would have led to such warfare, if we weren't guilty for the actions stated in the answers to Q1, but, of course, I can't prove that, and it's only an assumption.

[DeathCell]

I pose a question.. Who cares what Al Qaeda wants? Maybe the civilized Muslim world but extremist terrorist organizations?

[Universal Mind]

I pose a question.. Who cares what Al Qaeda wants? Maybe the civilized Muslim world but extremist terrorist organizations? There is a common belief that if we would just stop meddling in the Middle East then Al Qaeda would no longer want to kill masses of Americans. It is important to understand that Al Qaeda's problem with us goes far beyond that.

[DeathCell]

There is a common belief that if we would just stop meddling in the Middle East then Al Qaeda would no longer want to kill masses of Americans. It is important to understand that Al Qaeda's problem with us goes far beyond that. Yeah they need to be eliminated by all of society. Our meddling makes it easier for Al Qaeda to recruit.. Al Qaeda will not change their opinion on us if we stop meddling.