Thread: Beating our limitations.

It perceives them as emotions, thoughts, etc. Not as new colors. Perception doesn't mean something extraordinary. Meditation and drugs can drastically alter your perception of physical and mental worlds, while simple discussion can change your perception of mental topics. It's very changeable and infuential.

Originally Posted by Jimmehboi

Yea, but where does your brain get these new colors from when there is no perception from what we already know?

Thank you. That is exactly my point. Your question is at the center of this experience.

But your question is philosophical in nature. Is it possible to imagine something we have had no reference to ever before? Does everything we imagine always have to be some sort of combination of previous knowledge/experience?

Before you say yes, think about some of the things that the collective unconscious across the globe have all seemingly invented from no actual evidence or experience. For example, the ideas that gods or aliens came from the stars. Who gave the ancient people the idea that all-powerful invisible beings controlled everything (saying they came up with it to explain natural phenomena does not answer the question--the question is how, not why)? This is of course just one example. There are a lot of things like that which would not make very much sense if human beings are not capable of imagining things without previous exposure to them.

Of course, I am not arguing that people can imagine things they've never been exposed to before as complete fact, either. Wrap your head around this--what if, before being born here, we have seen those colors before in previous dimensions or previous kinds of existence? And so, what if, in an altered form of consciousness like LDing, we are able to unconsciously remember those colors?

So basically...to answer your original question, philosophically speaking it's completely possible to see "new" colors that our physical eyes have not seen whether or not you believe it is possible to imagine things without previous exposure to them.

Makes your head hurt, doesn't it?

No it doesn't make my head hurt. I understand completely, but it is wrong.

First, yes, we can imagine things with no prior knowledge, understanding, or experience of them. You used the God coming from space, I'll use the concept of God and religion in general. I never rebutted this.

Second, I already said that it would be possible to see colors that are new to you. You could easily create colors that you have never seen before. The only thing is that you could not possibly create new physical colors because they all exist in a beam of light. It is literally impossible for a new color outside of existing colors to be created.

As far as other dimensions and past lives, that is ridiculous, and wouldn't play any part in the comception of previously ineperienced colors, and I'm sure that if somebody doesn't believe in inexperienced imagining (if anybody in the world doens't believe in that), they wouldn't believe in past lives, and would probably be skeptics of alternate dimensions.

Originally Posted by StephenT

No it doesn't make my head hurt. I understand completely, but it is wrong.

How can a philosophical question be wrong? Or considering the possibilities and implications of either answer be wrong?

Originally Posted by StephenT

First, yes, we can imagine things with no prior knowledge, understanding, or experience of them.

Glad we agree on that, but my entire post was arguing that exact point and had nothing to do with your point. So by saying my post was wrong, are you saying you're wrong too? I think you just got confused 'cause you thought I was responding to your way of thinking when I was responding to another person's. I get confused like that all the time.

Originally Posted by StephenT

Second, I already said that it would be possible to see colors that are new to you. You could easily create colors that you have never seen before. The only thing is that you could not possibly create new physical colors because they all exist in a beam of light. It is literally impossible for a new color outside of existing colors to be created.

Okay. So your argument is based more on the physical senses of colors. You are saying that, even though we imagine those new colors, they do not necessarily exist on the physical plane, yes?

I think my problem is, you think that my definition of "new" color is one that does not exist on this plane. That is not necessarily true. It is possible that these "new" colors do exist on this plane, but I have just not seen them with my physical eyes. Again, human beings do not see all the colors in existence. There are more colors that exist than what we humans can see with our own physical eyes.

The second possibility is that many people believe that the reason we see those "new" colors because we are actually on different planes of existence where those colors do exist. On the "new" plane, those colors exist and it is possible to perceive them, but on this plane those colors do not exist at all.

I do now assume to know how or why this phenomena occurs. The only thing I know for sure is what I experienced. The rest of it, science, philosophy, metaphysics--only serve to give me possibilities in explanations. I am not so arrogant to think I actually know without a shadow of a doubt what causes such a mysterious phenomena.

Originally Posted by StephenT

As far as other dimensions and past lives, that is ridiculous, and wouldn't play any part in the comception of previously ineperienced colors, and I'm sure that if somebody doesn't believe in inexperienced imagining (if anybody in the world doens't believe in that), they wouldn't believe in past lives, and would probably be skeptics of alternate dimensions.

Again, that post was not directed at you, it was directed at someone who wanted to explore the question of whether or not we can perceive things we have never experienced. You may not like it, but when it comes to answering profound questions, I will venture into every possibility instead of holding it to the black-and-white thinking, because your line of thinking would now allow for the true exploration of that answer in the first place.

Remember: considering a possibility =/= belief. It is just like a scientist considering a hypothesis. You are merely considering it and willing to test it--you don't invest belief in it right away.

Before we start a huge heated debate on this

I'd like point out the fact that you posed the question- HOW have we come up with the idea of Gods and aliens without any evidence, yet even though it is similar, look closer and you'll see the difference.

The ideas of Gods and aliens etc. was a kind of theory/belief based on various influences, the mind can get to many unrelated ideas with what appears to be no connection what-so-ever, however small influences and memories in ones brain can interconnect and form wild and unusal forms. The idea of creating a new colour is the concept of coming to a wild and unusual form without ANY small influences or memories to interconnect and bring together this idea.

Like Stephen, he says it can be done, but basically, the image of the colour in your head wont actually be a physically different colour that you can see, but merely forms of emotions etc. Rather than the colour itself.

The fact that no other colours can exist on this planet, inspires me to be certain on believing that it's impossible to visualise a brand new colour and maybe even substitute it for a different one in either an LD or real life.

K, sorry for responding so hostile towards arguments that weren't against me. I thought they were.

Just one thing:

Okay. So your argument is based more on the physical senses of colors. You are saying that, even though we imagine those new colors, they do not necessarily exist on the physical plane, yes?

No, they do exist on the physical plane, which is why they are not new. They can be unseen by the imaginer, but not new.

I think my problem is, you think that my definition of "new" color is one that does not exist on this plane. That is not necessarily true. It is possible that these "new" colors do exist on this plane, but I have just not seen them with my physical eyes. Again, human beings do not see all the colors in existence. There are more colors that exist than what we humans can see with our own physical eyes.

I also assessed this. Color is what we perceive. There are not colors that we can't see, but there are frequencies on the electromagnetic spectrum (light) that extend beyond what the human eye can see. These would be infrared, ultraviolet, x-ray, gamma ray, etc. These aren't colors because we can't perceive them as color. They literally have no color. Color is only a segment of the electromagnetic spectrum that is visible to humans. Because the naked eye can't see infrared, ultraviolet, or x-ray, they are not colors; even when you use technology to view them, you don't see color, but intensities of the waves reflecting, diffracting, deflecting, absorbing etc. If you search for pictures of those, then you'll see this.

If you are dreaming and think that you are seeing in infrared, but you are seeing multiple colors, then you are seeing in color. Same for x-ray. (You would see a somewhat negative / reddish brown gray tone for infrared, and black and white for x-ray. The reason that x-ray sees through objects is because the frequencies are so high that they penetrate objects until they hit something of a higher density.

I could continue going on about the physics of light and waves, but I've said more than enough. It is impossible to create a new color, whether it is abundant or rare, visible or invisible to human sight.

Originally Posted by Jimmehboi

The fact that no other colours can exist on this planet, inspires me to be certain on believing that it's impossible to visualise a brand new colour and maybe even substitute it for a different one in either an LD or real life.

No other colors can exist in the form of light, which is the only basis of vision.

I'm going to interrupt this debate for a short but enlightening response. Let me hit you with some knowledge.

First, Clair, the thread he was talking about IS this one:

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=48095

I've found this to be the best explanation of what dreams are. It makes the most sense to me, and although I haven't researched it to an extent to say its true beyond all doubt, its what I believe in.


Dreams are based on our schemata, which are our expectations. Our expectations are built through real life experience, HOWEVER, they are not bound by real life experience.

Example. Imagine a centaur... its a horse, with a human torso on top of it. Most of us have seen these in fantasy pictures, and they're easy to imagine. But they don't exist.

If we take this a step forward, we can create other things that don't exist. I'm not going to gurantee new colors, but I will say that I whole heartedly believe in the ability for 360 sight. If you can turn your head and look around you, you are experiencing different points of view. If you attempt this with conviction in a Lucid, it'd only take a while before it caught on. I mean, c'mon... we've never flown before, but some have described it to be a realistic experience.

Another little example is orgasms. People have had the sensation of an orgasm at will in dreams, and then combined them several times over.

Its this "copy-paste" of our schemata that makes Lucid Dreaming the overwhelming experience it is.

Originally Posted by StephenT

No, they do exist on the physical plane, which is why they are not new. They can be unseen by the imaginer, but not new.

Mkay, so you have a problem with my definition of "new" colors. Unfortunately, you can't blame me for that since it was the OP's wording and I just used it in order to prevent confusion.

Like I said in my last post, new colors are new to our senses/minds, not necessarily new to the physical plane. So I think you're misinterpreting me on that, because I actually agree with you there.

Originally Posted by StephenT

There are not colors that we can't see, but there are frequencies on the electromagnetic spectrum (light) that extend beyond what the human eye can see.

So basically, to you, a color is only a color when we see it as a color? So frequencies we can't parse into colors in our minds aren't colors? So it's kinda like the light in the refrigerator thing, isn't it? However, other animals are able to perceive frequencies that we humans do not as colors. Would you consider those colors, or not, since they're perceived by nonhumans? (No real correct answer to this imo but I'm just curious.)

Originally Posted by StephenT

If you are dreaming and think that you are seeing in infrared, but you are seeing multiple colors, then you are seeing in color.

So is this the typical, "you must be mistaking a color you've never seen before for black and white or reddish brown"?

To which I say, lol. You're entitled to believe that if you want to, but I won't go there.

Originally Posted by StephenT

It is impossible to create a new color, whether it is abundant or rare, visible or invisible to human sight.

Imo, by your definition of "new" and "color," it is possible. All we have to do is perceive a color we've never seen before, right?

Also, btw, I didn't "create" any new colors; I just happened to see them. So I can't argue whether or not it's possible to consciously create them since I've never tried that.

I'd say that what a colour is, is just what your mind makes it. As colours come from reactions by our brain on electromagnitic waves percieved by our eyes it should be posible to see new colours, this is another clasic philosophical question which I think suits this situation quite good: Can a be sure that your yellow colour is exactly the same as mine?