Thread: Dream Control, Class One

Spoiler for Spoiler:

19:15 Serenity alright, so first of all, i'd like to hear about if anyone has had any experiences with dream control
19:15 XeL Sure :3
19:15 Draxis I've had a few, are we going for the depth of control we've had thus far?
19:15 Serenity think of a dream you've had where maybe your control wasn't so good, and you want to know why, or maybe something where you had awesome control
19:16 XeL the first thing I think of is flying
19:16 XeL sometimes it works like a charm
19:16 XeL sometimes I can't even take off
19:16 XeL it may or may not be connected to the quality of the dream, im not sure
19:17 JesterKK i've only failed at taking off once.. was super weird and very realistic
19:18 Draxis My control has been sort of sporadic, but when I become lucid I can generally do what I want, I've only flown once, but I've summoned people and changed their appearances
19:18 Serenity nice!
19:18 Draxis I've had relatively few LD's
19:18 XeL other than that I've never really managed to summon stuff out of my arms
19:18 XeL like fireballs
19:18 Draxis I summoned a girl once when I wanted my ex
19:18 XeL you wanted your EX?!
19:18 Draxis but I slowly changed things till she was the right person
19:18 XeL ;_<
19:18 Jakro I can fly pretty well by jumping or growing a pair of wings, I can also create things by just imagining them around the corner or in my pocket. However, whenever I try to teleport for example by jumping into mirror I just fall into darkness
19:19 Draxis not in that sense,
19:19 Serenity the first step of control is actually rooted in knowing where the content of dreams comes from
19:19 *** feist303 joined #DVA
19:19 Draxis semi long distance i guess
19:19 Serenity hai feist!
19:19 feist303hello!
19:19 Draxis ahoy
19:19 feist303sorry for being late
19:19 XeL DETENTION
19:19XeL
19:19 feist303
19:19 Draxis what chat room is that? Lol
19:19 Serenity it's sort of like the foundation, or the building blocks... knowing where your dreams form from
19:20 Draxis I've done a lot of reading on it
19:20 Serenity there are 5 forms of dream content that i would like to cover tonight
19:20 Serenity The first is Day Residue
19:21 Serenity it is sometimes said that we dream, because we are compartmentalizing the day's events... sort of like filing memories
19:21 Serenity For me, I tend to dream about things that happen during the day, a lot
19:22 Serenity like, if i watched a zombie movie or if something eventful happen/is happening at work
19:22 XeL mmm
19:22 Serenity many people find it very beneficial to keep a day time journal alongside their dream journals
19:23 JesterKK i've heard that helps.. my life is too mundane to enjoy writing about hthough
19:23 XeL lol
19:23 Serenity for me, it helps me recognize that it was something that happened... or perhaps it just takes care of compartmenting so it clears my mind for better things to dream about
19:23 Draxis i can remember things I do during the day very well, though I do keep a dream journal and correlate things when i can
19:23 Serenity it's happened both ways for me
19:24 spacechase0 I remember the other day when you asked if I could find the Current Courses sub-forum, I had a dream where I found it that night.
19:24 Serenity day residue is also part of the reason that people go on about doing RC;s during the day
19:24 Serenity nice, space
19:25 Serenity the theory is, doing RC's often, throughout the day, will eventually seep into your dreams because of day residue
19:25 Serenity The second... and this one's my favourite, is schema, or schemata
19:26 JesterKK RCs tend to need concentration to be remembered in dreams
19:26 Serenity which is essentially what our brain does to create relationships between objects, scenes, people, etc
19:27 Serenity true, jester i've never actually randomly done a RC myself, in a dream, just because it was habit. But! I have dreamed about other people doing them... or seeing specific dream signs in dreams because I thought about them a lot during the day
19:28 Serenity i like to call schemas "universe laws."
19:29 Serenity for the homework, i'll have you guys read billybob's tutorial on schemas... it's quite good and fascinating
19:29 XeL about that
19:29 Serenity the run-down is... each type of "universe" you could be dreaming, has it's own set of laws
19:29 XeL QUESTION!
19:29 Serenity yes
19:29 XeL I tried to click the link in the PM
19:29 XeL but it didn't work
19:29 XeL sup with that?
19:29 JesterKK http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...lybob+schemata
19:29 Serenity ah... perhaps it didn't link properly in the pm
19:30 XeL oh
19:30 XeL that one works
19:30 XeL alright
19:30 JesterKK the link in the pm doesn't work
19:30 spacechase0You need to replace the ... with showthre
19:30 XeL go on
19:30 Serenity the pm was a cut and paste off the one in the "current courses" forum
19:30 Serenity without actually copying any code *oops*
19:30 Serenity i was in a hurry when i did the one on the pm!
19:31 JesterKK not to worry lol
19:31 Serenity anyways... so say that you are having a dream about... your favourite tv show, movie, book, etc
19:31 Serenity your brain "knows" that certain elements are commonplace, and active because of that "universe"
19:32 Serenity like if you were having a harry potter-like dream, then people flying on broomsticks would be fairly commonplace (and harder to catch as a DS!)
19:33 Draxis question
19:33 Serenity but if you were dreaming about something mundane, like school, or work... and you saw someone fly in on a broomstick... that's not quite so normal!
19:33 Serenity yes
19:33 Draxis Last night, I was reading "A Rumor of War" by Phil Caputo before bed. I am a student at boarding school, but school in general is my DS19:34Draxisso I had an amalgamation of the two
19:34 Draxis and dreamed that we were doing war games with the people in my calss
19:34 Draxis class*
19:34 Draxis would that be an example of this or day residue, or both?
19:34 Serenity i would say it was both
19:35 Draxis alright, so schemata is just us placing ourselves in a different environment, making it expectations of what is feasible?
19:35 Serenity essentially, yes
19:35 Draxis ok thanks, thats it from me
19:36 Serenity i'm always amazed by dreams because of the new things that it constantly throws at me
19:36 Serenity and often, the situations i find myself in use all 5, or some of the 5 of the foundations of dream content in one dream
19:37 Serenity but, it's good to know what they are, because knowing it/recognizing it, you can learn how to manipulate it
19:37 Serenity the next foundation of dream content is faulty logic... this is the one that pisses me off the most, hehe
19:38 Serenity when dreaming, our brains are extremely active!
19:38 Serenity except for this one area, that generally gets turned off
19:38 JesterKK prefrontal cortex?
19:38 Serenity aaaaand that's the part that controls your logic
19:38 Serenity err... i *think* it's in the prefrontal cortex, i would have to look that one up
19:39 JesterKK ok.. im not sure either
19:39 Serenity i'll look it up in a bit
19:39 Serenity i'll get through the 5 foundations first, for the sake of time
19:39 spacechase0 Gotta go.
19:39 Serenity okay space!
19:39 *** spacechase0 quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
19:40 Serenity i'll link the chat logs in the current courses forum after
19:40 Serenity so, because the logic centre is turned off while we dream, this is why we tend to accept even the oddest things at face value
19:41 Serenity like, the other night, i encountered an individual who had a device that was mind controlling aliens to battle to the death
19:41 Serenity and somehow, that was PERFECTLY NORMAL!
19:41 XeL lol
19:41 Serenity your dreams, however, base their logic off of SCHEMA LOGIC not conscious logic
19:42 Serenity so many people stress that as a way to counteract this, to just always do reality checks, even when things appear to be normal
19:43 Serenity just, whenever you think about them, or dreaming, really
19:43 JesterKK makes sense
19:44 Serenity faulty logic is also said to be a hindrance on dream control. Like say you become lucid because you used a super power, but then suddenly, it doesn't work for you anymore (I've had this happen... it's why i joined DV, actually!)
19:45 Serenity when we become lucid, our logic centres turn back on, which sometimes results in the loss of abilities... because now it's conscious logic again
19:45 Serenity and consciously, you know you can't shoot fireballs out of your hands IRL
19:45 Serenity if you can, you're my hero
19:46 JesterKK question
19:46 Serenity yes
19:46 JesterKK shouldn't your conscious logic also tell you that you can shoot fireballs in dreams
19:46 Serenity yes
19:46 JesterKK so becoming lucid should be more of an aid than a hindrance?
19:47 Serenity but that's also because you're able to realize the full implications of what it means to find yourself in a dream
19:47 Serenity there are actually levels, or layers to lucidity. this is usually tied to control
19:47 Serenity like... i've been lucid and couldn't do much about it, other than stay in what i was doing
19:48 JesterKK oh ok. Thanks
19:48 Serenity as in... once, i was running from someone, and became lucid. i said to myself, "Once i find a place to hide, i'll work on stabilizing the dream and taking control!"
19:48 Serenity but... the next foundation actually ties in nicely to this, is Attention
19:49 Serenity things require our attention to exist in dreams
19:50 Serenity so, if i was "fully lucid" - realized the full implications of finding myself in a dream - I could have stopped and that person chasing me would disappear, because i would just ignore them
19:50 Serenity attention also helps with stabilizing the dream too.
19:51 Serenity during stabilizing, i find is when i gain more realizing... so that's one of my favourite things to do once i first become lucid
19:51 Serenity i just stop
19:51 Serenity and i marvel at the dream world
19:51 Serenity i take in the details of the world around me and immerse myself in it
19:52 Serenity by doing so, i find that the environment gives me more details, more attention to my surrounds, and the dream environment suddenly is now more stable to do what i want
19:53 Serenity faulty logic has a way of interfering with attention...
19:53 Serenity take a look at your room, or your desk briefly, then close your eyes and picture it
19:54 Serenity try to recall every single detail
19:54 Serenity the pictures on the wall, the exact placement of things on your desk
19:55 XeL mm
19:55 Serenity the way things are recreated in dreams are usually just concepts of elements... like walls, or signs, or what have you
19:55 Draxis but not in the precise location?
19:55 Serenity your brain doesn't need to see every detail of it to know it's there
19:55 Serenity yes, much like that
19:56 Serenity like when i dream about work, the camera screens on my desk aren't in the right place
19:56 Serenity or... the angle that i'm sitting at, i shouldn't be able to see the screen, but i can
19:56 Serenity but faulty logic accepts things as complete, or okay, even if they aren't
19:57 Serenity i was really quite amazed the last lucid dream i had (however short it was)... i was at work, and marveled at the fact that for once, everything was as it should be
19:57 Serenity i remember it clearly, everything was actually in the right place
19:58 Serenity so i was really quite suprised to find out it was a dream. cos usually, if i get lucid off a work dream and i look around, i think, "oh yeah, that makes sense. this is wrong, and this is wrong..."
19:59 Serenity the last dream content creator is a freudian term called the id
19:59 Serenity the id is like our emotional command centre... it's all "me, me, me."
19:59 XeL heh
19:59 XeL i know that
20:00 Serenity the id dominates in dreams, because the ego and the superego are tied to logic (which turns off, as we know)
20:00 JesterKK ahh yes i've studied this.. not in a dream context
20:00 Serenity so, sometimes, major elements in our dreams appear, or are created from emotions, lust or fear
20:01 JesterKK the superego is also illogical.. it is irrational fear of punishment and guilt
20:02 Serenity knowing these things will help you in terms of your control, because in a sense, you can recognize them now for what they are, and break from them
20:02 Serenity or, use them to your advantage
20:03 Serenity create a new schema in your dreams to let you do what you want
20:03 Draxis like an alternate dream world?
20:03 Draxis like HP Lovecraft's world
20:04 Serenity just a new set of rules, really but kind of like that
20:04 Serenity like, let's say i'm having problems with flight one night... then i'll say, "okay, now i'm my aion character and she can spawn wings"
20:04 Serenity good to go
20:05 JesterKK nice
20:05 Serenity but especially attention has been the biggest one for me
20:05 Serenity knowing that i can ignore things the dream tosses at me so i can take the time to stop and stabilize
20:06 JesterKK question
20:06 Serenity yes
20:06 JesterKK billybob's tutorial thingy talks about how demanding stability can make it more difficult to achieve
20:07 Serenity hang on... let me go in and read what he says
20:08 Serenity how far down the page? i'm scanning too quickly
20:09 JesterKK I did not do any "stabilization" techniques, I didn't yell "clarity now", or even study the ground. I simply became lucid and found myself in this strange, quiet, brisk, autumn-day universe.
20:10 JesterKK Since I "knew" that I couldn't lose lucidity, I didn't; even without doing any type of technique to "ground" myself. I walked around, looking at birds flying around in the trees and just generally relaxing.
20:10 Serenity mm! okay just before that though, he mentions that people get this fear that if you don't immediately stabilize, the dream will "break down."
20:10 Draxis hmm
20:10 Serenity what he's addressing is... you don't need to fear that
20:11 Draxis and the expectation forms a schemata that damns us
20:11 Draxis so we just have to expect that it won't happen by forming our own schemata
20:11 Draxis in essence, right?
20:11 Serenity don't fear that your dream will suddenly dissolve just because you're lucid now
20:11 XeL OMG
20:11 XeL that happens to me
20:11 XeL all the time
20:12 XeL GAWD ;_;
20:12 Serenity now that said... in the past, before trying to stabilize, i have found it harder to control it
20:12 XeL "hey im dreaming... what it I WAKE UP?" *find myself in bed*
20:12 Serenity ugh, yeah that happens to me alot 20:12Serenitythat's just probably the end of a REM phase, though
20:13 Serenity you can try to DEILD to get back in 20:13Draxisbut sometimes can't you drop back into the dream?
20:13 Draxis whats that stand for again?
20:13 Serenity dream-exit induced lucid dream
20:13 Draxis ah
20:13 Serenity it's essentially dream chaining
20:13 Draxis which can be a WBTB at times
20:13 Serenity you wake up, just try falling back to sleep with the scene you just found yourself lucid in
20:14 Serenity it's more of a WILD
20:14 Draxis I haven't been able to induce LDs too successfully, but I've had them happen
20:14 Serenity you actually don't want to move a lot or get up when you're DEILDing
20:15 Draxis my first LD was a WILD though, and the thing that struck me is that control almost feels like what I expect to happen
20:15 Serenity you shouldn't have more then about 30 seconds between waking up and falling asleep when you attempt to DEILD
20:15 Draxis ok
20:15 Draxis i'll remember that tonight
20:15 Serenity yes! control is very much based on expectation
20:15 Serenity expectation and belief
20:16 Serenity why can you toss a fireball from your hand? because you can. it's your dream!
20:17 Draxis i think that control is simply a matter of expectation, and that I have to train myself when awake to expect that I should be able to expect anything to happen
20:17 Serenity the thing about content and how it becomes useful in control is... say you're having problems with flight...
20:17 Serenity whatever it is you're doing, it's not working
20:18 Serenity so... knowing now how dreams form themselves... manipulate a content block

There's a couple of fantastic videos on the Dream Tube on Faulty Logic and Day Residue, here

Class Two Chat Logs, right here!

Spoiler for Spoiler:

[18:54] <@Serenity> hai party peoples!
[18:54] <Draxis> ahoy
[18:56] <JesterKK> hey
[18:56] <Jakro> hi
[18:59] == JesterKK [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[19:00] == JesterKK [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[19:00] <Draxis> welcome back
[19:00] <@Serenity> WB
[19:01] <@Serenity> is anyone having problems with lag on submitting stuff, like visitor messages or PM's to people?
[19:01] <Draxis> nope
[19:01] <@Serenity> can someone message spacechase0 and tell him to get in here?
[19:01] <@Serenity> dreamviews is running like molasses for me, right now
[19:01] <@Serenity> not sure why
[19:01] <Draxis> sure
[19:02] <Draxis> woah
[19:02] <Draxis> it just slowed way down
[19:02] <@Serenity> bleh!
[19:02] <Draxis> as in not loading
[19:02] <@Serenity> i'mma try IE
[19:02] <Draxis> i blame the communists
[19:02] == feist303 [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[19:03] <@Serenity> hi hi feist!
[19:03] <feist303> hello!
[19:03] <feist303> uch, dv is down, and i didn't know the command to get in
[19:03] <@Serenity> main page is loading super slow on IE and firefox
[19:03] <@Serenity> oh it's down
[19:03] <@Serenity> that makes sense
[19:03] <Draxis> aye
[19:03] <Draxis> seems that way
[19:04] <Draxis> faulty technology, i should do a RC...
[19:04] <@Serenity> well... i'm going to wait a few more minutes for people to figure an alternative measure, since i can't contact them
[19:04] == spacechase0 [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[19:04] <Draxis> i might need to duck out a touch early
[19:04] <@Serenity> my back is in pain... real for me
[19:04] <@Serenity> hey space
[19:04] <spacechase0> Hi
[19:05] <feist303> hi space
[19:05] <spacechase0> Hi.
[19:05] <@Serenity> well... chat logs get posted anyways... i might as well just start, seeing as the website is down
[19:05] <@Serenity> not sure how many others know of other routes on getting in here...
[19:06] <feist303> yeah, looks like i was just in time
[19:06] <@Serenity> So, welcome to class two I'd like to start out by quickly touching on induction techniques... just the two major ones, DILDs and WILDs and how they affect your ability to control a LD
[19:07] <@Serenity> who are the WILD'ers here?
[19:07] <feist303> never pulled one of :p
[19:07] <feist303> i'll learn, someday
[19:07] <@Serenity> (yeah, me neither)
[19:07] <JesterKK> me neither
[19:07] <Jakro> I only have WILDs on January 31st
[19:07] <Jakro> for real
[19:07] <Draxis> I have done it
[19:07] <spacechase0> What feist said.
[19:07] <@Serenity> Draxis, you've done a couple, right?
[19:07] <Draxis> its how i had my first
[19:07] <Draxis> aye
[19:07] <Jakro> two years in a row only wilds have come that day
[19:08] <@Serenity> so, tell us what it's like... do you feel pretty much in control straight away?
[19:08] <Draxis> well, its how i had my first LD
[19:08] <Draxis> i remember lying down in bed and just thinking about it
[19:09] <Draxis> and then it felt like my soul was being torn from my body almost (*a tad of exageration)
[19:09] <@Serenity> =/
[19:09] <Draxis> i remember standing next to my bed and thinking, its a WILD!
[19:09] <Draxis> it wasn't painful, just not what i was expecting
[19:09] <Draxis> like athena from the head of zeus
[19:09] <@Serenity> i actually think i know that feeling... felt it before
[19:09] <Draxis> and i tried to summon a friend of mine behind a door, and it didn't work
[19:10] <Draxis> tried to fly, didn't work
[19:10] <Draxis> had another WILD the next day
[19:10] <Draxis> and flying worked
[19:10] <Draxis> probably my one of my best LD's
[19:10] <@Serenity> what was the difference between the two WILDs?
[19:10] <Draxis> well, a bit of experience and following the rules of expectations
[19:11] <Draxis> the first one fell apart when i saw a cat and expected it to attack me and then it did
[19:11] <Draxis> the second i tried to fly, but didn't quite get it
[19:11] <Draxis> then got it after a while
[19:11] <Draxis> my friend flying with me asked why i couldn't do it yesterday
[19:11] <Draxis> and i said "well, I just needed a little practice is all"
[19:12] <Draxis> i don't remember "feeling" like i was in control
[19:12] <Draxis> but i decided to try flying and it worked for me that time
[19:12] <Draxis> haven't really been able to repeat it
[19:12] <Draxis> mostly summoning stuff and people now
[19:12] <Draxis> sorry for the wall of text, is that what you needed?
[19:13] <@Serenity> perfect
[19:13] <Draxis> in short, it doesn't feel much different when you're lucid
[19:13] <@Serenity> feist, you seem to have a pretty high frequency of DILDs, so what are they like for you in terms of control?
[19:13] <Draxis> it just felt different getting there
[19:13] <feist303> hmm, i struggle with control
[19:13] <feist303> my main problem is prolonging my ld's
[19:14] <feist303> so that's what i'm trying to focus on now
[19:14] <feist303> most of em are way to short
[19:14] <Draxis> how frequently do you get them, just out of curiosity
[19:14] <feist303> well, i've only recently started taking ld more seriously, and practicing harder
[19:14] <feist303> i've had 25 different LD's last month, on 14 different nights
[19:15] <feist303> but before that i had like 6-ish nights of lucidity a month
[19:15] <Draxis> bloody hell
[19:15] <feist303> with maybe 10ld's
[19:15] <@Serenity> Partly, I wanted to bring up the discussion because I've only had DILDs... I know I've had the idea that WILDs would be easier to control than a DILD
[19:15] <@Serenity> but I'm not so sure that is the case, now. it seems like they are pretty much on par with each other
[19:15] <Draxis> starting out, yes, but after a while it hasn't made a difference
[19:16] <feist303> i always thought they were harder
[19:16] <feist303> since you still had to do alot of stabelizing
[19:16] <@Serenity> i think the only "benefit" a WILD has over a DILD (at least for me) is the ability to break from the plot... since with a WILD, you don't have to
[19:17] <Draxis> as best i can tell, its just how much you believe in the expectation, a WILD just gets you there faster and because you know you were trying to do something, you're more likely to exert the control you wanted
[19:17] StatServ [[email protected]] requested CTCP VERSION from Serenity:
[19:17] <@Serenity> yeah, WILDs definitely take a lot of initial stabilizing, so i hear
[19:17] <Draxis> a tad, yes.
[19:18] <@Serenity> but... with either technique, stabilizing, even with a DILD, is the first step to having better control
[19:18] <@Serenity> I would like to talk about a personal experience, if i may?
[19:18] <Jakro> no
[19:18] <JesterKK> sure
[19:18] <@Serenity>
[19:18] <Jakro> just joking go ahead
[19:18] <Jakro> x)
[19:18] == Alex [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[19:18] == mode/#DVA [+y Alex] by irc.dreamviews.com
[19:18] == mode/#DVA [+o Alex] by DreamBot
[19:18] <@Serenity> Alright, so back in March, I was going mental with the desire to complete a TOTM and I was having problems with my lucidity
[19:19] <@Serenity> it seemed like as soon as I finally got lucid, I would go immediate focus into "amg, lucidity, complete the task now!"
[19:19] <@Serenity> in the months beforehand, this always caused the dream to collapse
[19:20] <@Serenity> until one morning, i got lucid through a DILD and did the same thing... only the dream didn't collapse... i was a bit slower with it this time
[19:20] <@Serenity> the task was to taste a rainbow
[19:21] <@Serenity> i looked around me and saw puddles so i thought, "okay, it was raining, there should be a rainbow in the distance"
[19:21] <Draxis> what did it taste like?
[19:21] <@Serenity> candy apples
[19:21] <feist303> nice
[19:21] <@Serenity> anyways, so I look in the distance, and i imagine a rainbow ahead
[19:21] <Draxis> the skittles people lied to us...
[19:21] <JesterKK> loll
[19:21] <@Serenity> i saw it form, and i thought, "alright, so now i have to fly there" and flight has always been my nemesis!
[19:22] <@Serenity> i pushed off the ground and was like, "oh yeah, it's working!"... and i sank like a rock in water
[19:22] <@Serenity> so, to make it work, i had to close my eyes... i nearly flew past the rainbow, but... i managed to complete the task.
[19:22] <@Serenity> everything destabilized straight after that
[19:23] <@Serenity> i recall my surroundings being rather blurry and not very clear... and my control wasn't very good
[19:23] <@Serenity> i know this was mainly because i didn't stabilize the dream, first
[19:24] <@Serenity> so... april TOTM... doing a headstand. i got lucid off a DILD again, and literally STOPPED doing anything
[19:24] <@Serenity> i stared at my hands, and just admired how the dream felt
[19:24] <@Serenity> i grabbed my wrist, even
[19:25] <@Serenity> but as i did so, it felt like everything around me was becoming more vivid, more clear
[19:25] <@Serenity> everything was as solid as real life gets
[19:26] <@Serenity> so i completed my task... managed to force the completion a little, AND once it was done i realized... the dream didn't end!
[19:26] <@Serenity> so i was all like, "bonus!"
[19:26] <@Serenity> and got to try out some other things
[19:26] <@Serenity> so ever since then, i've always felt that in order to better control my dream, i should stop and stabilize... let the dream become more and more vivid around me
[19:27] <@Serenity> i did this again in my next LD and i managed to fly without any difficulty... straight to the moon, in fact
[19:28] <@Serenity> so... as i type out some stuff on control... questions, comments?
[19:28] <@Serenity> disagreements? experiences?
[19:28] <feist303> i'm good, for now
[19:29] <Jakro> Well I always seem to do well with stablizing, admiring the patterns in my hands and details around me, but as soon as I stop doing that dream usually collapses
[19:29] <Draxis> same here, though i've had the same sort of experiences so I understand where you're coming from
[19:29] <JesterKK> I remember I tried to stabilise inside an elevator by touching the walls.. but i did it too fast and it became less stable
[19:29] <Jakro> You know, when I actually try to do something
[19:29] <@Serenity> So there are two different types of control. Passive and Active Control We'll talk Passive first, since it's definitely the easier of the two
[19:30] <@Serenity> hmm... when you stabilize, try just rubbing your own hands together... perhaps that will help with the tactile sensation, but won't cause your dream to flip out?
[19:30] <@Serenity> otherwise, some people call out commands like, "Stability now!" or "clarity now!"
[19:31] <@Serenity> Passive controls are: Affirmation, Asking, and Schemas
[19:32] <@Serenity> Affirmations are just knowing that your dreams will create things that you know are there
[19:32] <@Serenity> like say, rooms in a house
[19:32] <@Serenity> the dining room will be next to the living room, because you know it is
[19:32] <@Serenity> a person will be there, around the corner, because you know they are
[19:33] <@Serenity> this technique IS a bit difficult, because when using an affirmation, you have to be 100% sure this will be true
[19:33] <@Serenity> any doubts at all, and it may not
[19:34] <@Serenity> You can try "Asking" something. Ask a character to do something, instead of trying to force them too
[19:35] <@Serenity> like say you need them to shoot fireballs and they aren't... ask, "Can you help me by shooting fireballs at this dude?"
[19:35] <@Serenity> you may be surprised
[19:35] <feist303> that does sounds like a good and fun idea
[19:35] <@Serenity> if you need to travel somewhere, and you have issues with flying, just try walking it for now
[19:35] <spacechase0> I usually can't find anyone.
[19:36] <@Serenity> if it means the difference between accomplishing a goal you want or destabilizing the dream, you might find walking to be the better method... and you might find that walk is just as fast, somehow
[19:37] <@Serenity> if you are finding it hard to get something you want, remember that your logic centre is going active when lucid, so you may have to work with it, rather than against it, to get what you want but in a bit, i have an idea that may help you with that pesky logic centre
[19:38] <spacechase0> Gotta go.
[19:38] <@Serenity> just as a passive technique... don't fight your logic, try to work with it to reach your goal
[19:38] <spacechase0> See everyone tomorrow.
[19:38] <@Serenity> night space
[19:38] == spacechase0 [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
[19:38] <@Serenity> and schemas! schemas can work hand-in-hand with affirmations
[19:39] <@Serenity> it's important that when you attempt to affirm something, to understand how your schema views the relationships of what is currently happening in your dreams
[19:40] <@Serenity> like if you ask someone you know is a dog-hater to give you a puppy, it may not work out so well
[19:40] <@Serenity> (my BF just showed me a massive wasp he trapped in a glass, gross!!!)
[19:40] <feist303> hehe :p
[19:41] <feist303> let's hope that it won't be day residue later :p
[19:41] <@Serenity> alternatively, with summoning a RL friend into your dream, it may just be your location... if this person has never been to your current location (your house, your school, etc), it might be harder to summon them there, because they've never been there IRL
[19:42] <feist303> lol, in my first ld's i would try to fly to this girls house, i always woke up before i fly'd have my way there
[19:42] <JesterKK> same here lol
[19:42] <@Serenity> Now onto the *funner* controls! The Active Controls... these are: Attachments, Flying, Teleportation, Telekinesis, and Summoning (to name a few)
[19:43] <@Serenity> Active controls can be anything really magic powers and all
[19:43] <@Serenity> Attachments are the thing that ties together with the logic centre
[19:44] <@Serenity> if you are having troubles making an object float, it's because deep down, you know that we have gravity, and objects "can't" float
[19:44] <@Serenity> In order to control your dreams, you have to let go of attachments.
[19:45] <@Serenity> My way of doing that is simply asking myself, "why *can't* i summon a 30 ft storm giant to carry me around the world? it's my dream! "
[19:45] <@Serenity> it's your imagination... it's like a real life day dream... you can day dream a 30 ft storm giant, you can dream a 30ft storm giant
[19:46] <@Serenity> you just have to remember it's your dream
[19:46] <Draxis> i personally find if you look away for a second that its far more probable to happen because you don't have to see it appear from nowhere
[19:46] <feist303> yeah, i do that to when certain things don't work
[19:46] <@Serenity> yes!
[19:46] <@Serenity> i definitely look away, or close my eyes
[19:46] <Draxis> Thats how i got summoning people to work
[19:47] <@Serenity> because if i try to see things appear, sometimes it causes destabilizing
[19:47] <Draxis> and i even had an instance where i got the wrong person, so i just changed them
[19:47] <@Serenity> flying. where to start? well... flying used to be the bane of my existence
[19:48] <@Serenity> because i believed it was, partly
[19:48] <@Serenity> i had to come up with something, at first, that would help me fly
[19:48] <@Serenity> so, my idea was to spawn wings, like my aion character
[19:48] <@Serenity> just grow wings out of my back
[19:48] <@Serenity> i even got an arm motion for it
[19:49] <JesterKK> lol I used to flap my arms to fly
[19:49] <feist303> spawning wings sounds much harder to me then flying :p
[19:49] <feist303> hehe
[19:49] <@Serenity> you could summon a jet pack or a rocket pack if you're good at summoning
[19:49] <Draxis> at jester, i did the flap before i went neo style
[19:49] <@Serenity> or just take a pill that allows you to fly
[19:49] <Draxis> gotta try that
[19:49] <@Serenity> i tried swimming in the air, once
[19:49] <@Serenity> it looked pretty funny
[19:50] <feist303> haha
[19:50] <JesterKK> hehehe
[19:50] <@Serenity> but it works for some people
[19:50] <@Serenity> or... how about an ultra trampolene?
[19:50] <@Serenity> just bounce until you're in the clouds and ride the wind?
[19:51] <JesterKK> aahh imagine surfing on the clouds.. that would be sweet
[19:51] <@Serenity> get a friend to fling you off a cliff?
[19:51] <JesterKK> lol some friend
[19:51] <@Serenity> (I had a dream where wakingnomad tossed me off a cliff )
[19:51] <Draxis> well i have a few friends i'm sure would love to push me off one...
[19:51] <feist303>
[19:52] <@Serenity> anyone ever tried teleporting?
[19:52] <Draxis> of a sort
[19:52] <Draxis> spinning count?
[19:52] <@Serenity> yes
[19:52] <feist303> with spinning a few times maybe, by accident
[19:52] <Draxis> then yes, but only partially succesfully
[19:52] <@Serenity> i've never spun, tbh... kind of afraid to, since my lucids are few and far between
[19:53] <feist303> never really had the need to
[19:53] <@Serenity> usually, when i teleport, i close my eyes and snap my fingers
[19:53] <@Serenity> usually i know where i want to end up, so i imagine it and i'll see it when i open my eyes
[19:53] <feist303> i try to avoid closing my eyes...
[19:54] <@Serenity> i just believe it works because that's how i do it in non-lucids
[19:54] <@Serenity> yeah closing eyes is dangerous for some
[19:54] <@Serenity> because some people end their dreams that way
[19:54] <Draxis> try looking at your hands while you do it then
[19:54] <feist303> yes, often i'll end up in a void, or wake up
[19:54] <Jakro> me too
[19:54] <feist303> or fa's!
[19:54] <@Serenity> one thing naiya said, when she was talking about wilding was trying to reopen your dream eyes
[19:55] <@Serenity> you could try to walk through a mirror, or even just another door
[19:56] <@Serenity> you could be in one of those houses from cheesy 60's comedies where you open the door and wham, there's a train track
[19:57] <@Serenity> perhaps you have a DC friend who's fantastic at this stuff and they can teleport you?
[19:57] <@Serenity> that was the first time i had a lucid teleport... a DC actually teleported me
[19:58] <feist303> cool
[19:58] <@Serenity> telekinesis is a another favourite
[19:59] <feist303> i'm trying it atm
[19:59] <@Serenity> that was one that just kind of works for me... all i do is use my arms/hands in the motion i want, but not actually touch the object
[20:00] <@Serenity> i haven't actually gotten it straight to the mind yet, but i haven't really tried i'm okay with arm motions
[20:00] <@Serenity> summoning!
[20:01] <@Serenity> i think the biggest part about this one is just believing it's there
[20:01] <feist303> i just use doors
[20:01] <Draxis> yeah, or like i said
[20:01] <Draxis> look away and back
[20:01] <Draxis> if text and stuff changes, why not what you want?
[20:01] <@Serenity> i've heard some people say that they ask their intended subject a question to answer as they walk around a corner, or just look behind the,
[20:01] <@Serenity> them*
[20:02] <@Serenity> you could feasibly summon two things at once "hey paul, have you seen my baseball bat?" O.o
[20:03] <JesterKK> lol
[20:03] <@Serenity> having confidence in your results is key
[20:03] <@Serenity> don't doubt it working because you've never done it
[20:03] <@Serenity> it WILL work, because this is your dream and you're the master of it
[20:04] <@Serenity> you can fly because you swallowed the flight pill... donned the P-wing... summoned a rocket pack
[20:04] <@Serenity> or just because you CAN
[20:05] <@Serenity> you can fly to the moon... it's your dream
[20:05] <@Serenity> open for questions
[20:06] <@Serenity> that's all i have for today's lessony part, so open chat now
[20:06] == Alex [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 90 seconds]
[20:06] <Draxis> so whats the homework?
[20:07] <@Serenity> Read the basic task of the month and come up with a way to actively and passively complete the task. Describe how you became lucid (WILD Dream sign RC ect) and then stabilized the dream. Then walk me through how you completed the task in each manner. You may use one of your dreams from your dream journal, if you like. It does not have to be a lucid dream, but to complete the assignment; you would have to turn it into one!

Spoiler for Spoiler:

[19:05] <@Serenity> alright, i think i'll just start. i sent space a pm, but he's ignoring it
[19:06] <@Serenity> So, thanks for coming on short notice, guys
[19:06] <Draxis> its awesome, did you feel like you had more control than usual?
[19:06] <Draxis> no problem serenity
[19:06] <@Serenity> this is part two of Dream Control techniques
[19:06] <feist303> also, i used attention in my dream, i wished some things out of attnetion
[19:06] <Draxis> i'll be gone for the next class or two
[19:06] <feist303> so thanks for that serentiy
[19:06] <Draxis> as I will be in Africa
[19:06] <feist303> yeah, i guess i did
[19:06] <feist303> it all felt alot more real as usual
[19:06] <feist303> i could think more clearly
[19:06] <@Serenity> it might be a little shorter, relatively
[19:07] <@Serenity> slightly less to cover in this lesson
[19:07] <Draxis> aight
[19:07] <@Serenity> so, the first bit i'd like to touch on, is a form of induction/control technique called Dream Incubation.
[19:08] <@Serenity> Anyone heard of it before?
[19:08] <feist303> i've meaning to read up on it but never get around to it
[19:08] <feist303> so this will be interesting
[19:09] <@Serenity> well... to take the words out of my co-worker's mouth... when she incubates a dream, she literally paints her landscape
[19:09] <Draxis> i tried it when i was first LDing
[19:09] <Draxis> had some success with it
[19:09] <@Serenity> as she's falling asleep, she'll imagine the grass, the clouds, the sky etc and suddenly, it's all up around her.
[19:10] <@Serenity> i guess it's like a VILD... there is potential that you could dream incubate without realizing it and not become lucid
[19:10] <@Serenity> so the key is to remember as you're incubating to recognize your scenery as the dream sign
[19:11] <@Serenity> i call it a form of induction AND control, because obviously, you can control where you end up
[19:11] <@Serenity> or start, rather
[19:11] <@Serenity> you could incubate a scenario that would best aid you in accomplishing your goals for the night
[19:12] <@Serenity> a form that i do (albeit, semi-successfully), is what i call "manifestation" which is very much like incubating
[19:13] <@Serenity> i think of something i would like to introduce into my dreams... say a person or a thing
[19:13] <@Serenity> and usually within a few nights, it starts popping up
[19:14] <@Serenity> so, as a form of control, again... you could manifest something into your dreams that'll help you accomplish what you want...
[19:14] <@Serenity> i rather think that the avatar Draxis is coming up with is a bit of a manifestation
[19:15] <@Serenity> another person on the forums wanted a device that would allow him to control his dreams, much like VR goggles displaying a virtual keyboard of control options
[19:16] <Draxis> I recently had the idea of using an omni-tool (from mass effect) which is similar to that idea and is my current manifestation of sortsw
[19:17] <@Serenity> for me, i'm not very good at incubating dreams... however, i can usually manifest a scene (like right now, is Central park... and i'm finally getting parks to show up in dreams)... i usually just day dream about the thing i want to manifest as i'm falling asleep
[19:18] <@Serenity> another control technique that i do a lot is just visualizing
[19:18] <@Serenity> this can work or not work... it's sort of hit and miss some nights
[19:18] <@Serenity> so... for example, the rainbow dream i had
[19:19] <@Serenity> i looked off in the distance and just imagined i could see a rainbow... and watched one appear
[19:20] <@Serenity> if i wanted to play with pyrokinesis, like for the advanced TOTM... i would just hold my hands out, and imagine there's fire in my pams
[19:20] <@Serenity> palms*
[19:20] <@Serenity> that doesn't always work for people, so sometimes you need an extra push
[19:20] <@Serenity> which is the next technique, and that is using your dream body's senses
[19:21] <@Serenity> so... if you were to have a ball of fire in your palm, what would that feel like?
[19:21] <feist303> pretty hot :p
[19:21] <Draxis> powerful tingling
[19:21] <Draxis> to protect me from the heat
[19:22] <@Serenity> similarly, what if you were to water-bend, instead?
[19:22] <@Serenity> many people want to throw one of those dragonball kameha thingies (basically just an energy ball, as i understand?)
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[19:23] <feist303> hey space
[19:23] <spacechase0> Sorry, wasn't watching the clock.
[19:23] <@Serenity> that might feel like electricity in your hands
[19:23] <@Serenity> LATE
[19:23] <feist303> yeah, i tried those, and never managed to do so
[19:23] <spacechase0> I was playing with the cats.
[19:23] <spacechase0> So, what exactly did I miss?
[19:24] <@Serenity> chat logs posted later
[19:24] <@Serenity> so sometimes, all you need to aid in your goals is that little push with your senses
[19:24] <@Serenity> that said, don't make it too complex, or harder than it has to be
[19:25] <Draxis> could you use a tool to help you?
[19:25] <@Serenity> i remember the first time i tried to summon a portal, and i felt all the energy coming off my hands (yes, a tool could totally help)
[19:25] <@Serenity> i expected the portal would be all blue and awesome looking... instead, i summoned a black swirly mass that ate my dream
[19:26] <feist303> he, summoning black hole's sounds cool to
[19:26] <@Serenity> remember, the best tool you have in dream control is belief
[19:26] <@Serenity> i believed the portal would be hard to summon, and my dream was only so happy to oblige
[19:27] <@Serenity> a portal could be as easy as expanding your hands and bang, it's there
[19:27] <@Serenity> or... use a tool... like a portal gun
[19:28] <@Serenity> instant portals in a barrel
[19:28] <@Serenity>
[19:28] <@Serenity> i might just do that one, actually
[19:29] <@Serenity> something...feist? was mentioning earlier was attention
[19:29] <@Serenity> so how did your experience go with that?
[19:29] <feist303> yes
[19:29] <feist303> well
[19:29] <feist303> as i said i got lucid in my room
[19:29] <feist303> i crawled out of my window
[19:29] <feist303> and i then teared up our yard
[19:29] <feist303> naked
[19:29] <feist303> in the mud
[19:29] <feist303> then i realised everything was so real and that i should go do something usefull
[19:30] <feist303> so i ran to the bar
[19:30] <feist303> but i was naked and dirty
[19:30] <feist303> i wanted to return to get some pants but instead i relaised that if i wont pay attention to the fact i'm naked, neither will the dc's!
[19:30] <feist303> as i thought this and looked back down
[19:30] <feist303> i suddenly was wearing pants
[19:30] <@Serenity> nice one
[19:30] <feist303> then i wanted to wash myself a bit before entering the bar
[19:31] <feist303> and i realised i shouldn't pay attention to being dirty
[19:32] <@Serenity> one of the things i noticed in my dreams is... especially when i'm lucid... my dream will introduce things to distract me
[19:33] <@Serenity> like in one dream, i saw a friend from college stroll through the doors of the building i was in. i thought to myself, "i don't really want to interact with her," so i just turned away and she disappeared
[19:33] <@Serenity> or my mum will try to ask me things, if she's around
[19:34] <@Serenity> i always feel a tad guilty each time i blow her off in a dream
[19:34] <@Serenity> i just apologize to her once i'm awake
[19:34] <Draxis> hmm
[19:34] <feist303> hehe
[19:35] <@Serenity> "sorry mum, this is a dream," *walks away* she never tries to follow me
[19:35] <@Serenity> obviously this works both ways
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[19:36] <@Serenity> if you want something to remain, you give it a bit more attention
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[19:36] <@Serenity> has anyone ever tried scene changing? like spinning or teleporting?
[19:37] <feist303> it always woke me up
[19:37] <Draxis> spinning once
[19:37] <feist303> spinning
[19:37] <feist303> never tried teleporting
[19:37] <feist303> did do it by accident thorugh spinning a few times
[19:37] <spacechase0> Maybe once or twice, nothing substantial though.
[19:37] <@Serenity> spinning is a tricky one... for a lot of people, it wakes them up
[19:37] <@Serenity> but some people swear by it
[19:38] <@Serenity> i've never tried it, personally
[19:38] <@Serenity> but there's a huge piece of belief in there
[19:38] <Draxis> it kind of worked for me, but i hit the head board of my bed (not actually)
[19:38] <@Serenity> i wonder if some people fail at it because they get predispositioned to?
[19:39] <Draxis> it would make sense
[19:39] <@Serenity> so try it, and believe it'll work. i think it helps to have a scene in mind
[19:40] <feist303> i think ewold recommends it as the best method of prolonging dreams
[19:40] <@Serenity> teleporting is also a bit tricky. like for me, it requires closing my eyes
[19:40] <feist303> that's also something i stay away from
[19:40] <@Serenity> but it's all very fast... like blinking
[19:41] <spacechase0> Closing my eyes usually ends up waking me up. I remember some old dreams of not wanting to blink because I knew I would woke up.
[19:41] <@Serenity> anyone ever walked around the corner and found themselves in a different scene?
[19:41] <spacechase0> I usually don't have time.
[19:42] <feist303> after going through a door in my house...
[19:42] <@Serenity> even in a non-lucid, space?
[19:42] <feist303> i did manage to find a bathroom that isn't there, with a nude chick :p
[19:42] <Draxis> convienient
[19:43] <@Serenity> sometimes, pulling things that have worked for you out of non-lucids benefit when you're lucid
[19:43] <@Serenity> like the reason i know teleporting with my eyes closed works for me is because that's how i travel in non-lucids
[19:44] <@Serenity> alternatively, without even requesting it, i have walked into rooms and walked out again into a different scene
[19:45] <@Serenity> which is often quite baffling
[19:45] <@Serenity> some people walk through mirrors
[19:47] <@Serenity> that is all i have (currently) on controlling techniques, there is one more class dedicated to the importance of having dream goals. but as for techniques, c'est finit. does anyone have any question i might not have addressed?
[19:47] <Draxis> well, an idea that i'd like to get input on, but thats it
[19:47] <feist303> not that i can think of right now
[19:47] <@Serenity> go ahead, draxis
[19:48] <Draxis> like i said before I was toying around with the idea of a schemata, but i decided there was a far easier way to do it
[19:49] <Draxis> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shki2qbk1mk
[19:49] <@Serenity> (on a side note, i totally kicked a schema in the ass the other night )
[19:49] <Draxis> this link is from mass effect 2 and pictures the omni too
[19:49] <Draxis> the idea is to use this tool for everything sort of, it could scan things and replicate them, shoot fireballs, paralyze people etc
[19:50] <Draxis> and b/c its a tech thing, it seems almost more plausible than psionics, which i think will make it easier for me to start with
[19:50] <Draxis> thoughts?
[19:50] <@Serenity> i'm at the combat drone.... you wanted to introduce one of those to help you?
[19:50] <Draxis> no, the thing on his wrist
[19:51] <Draxis> but it could summon a drone too
[19:51] <Draxis> thats the beauty of it
[19:51] <@Serenity> ooh... sorry i was listening to her and watching chat
[19:51] <Draxis> so simple and so powerful
[19:51] <@Serenity> i think it could work well... like earlier i had mentioned Mario's VR goggles
[19:51] <@Serenity> it's along the same lines
[19:52] <@Serenity> mario tried his goggles out in his last lucid, and i recall him mentioning he had a great degree of success with them
[19:52] <Draxis> yeah, i think tech is a great way to manipulate a dream
[19:52] <Draxis> because we see it so much in daily life and trust it implicitly
[19:52] <@Serenity> tbh, i think tools are some of the best ideas to help control dreams
[19:52] <@Serenity> like the portal gun i'm going to try
[19:53] <Draxis> well i'm gonna try my omnitool
[19:53] <@Serenity> you could essentially program your watch to do anything you want it to
[19:54] <Draxis> i almost want something complicated because if i don't know how it works, there is no logic to doubt it
[19:54] <Draxis> weird, but thats my thought on it
[19:55] <@Serenity> hmm... if you don't know *how* it works, but it just does, so you don't question how?
[19:56] <Draxis> no, i mean we see computers and run things on them and trust them to work
[19:56] <@Serenity> right
[19:56] <Draxis> thats the thought and then it leads to implicit trust/ belief
[19:57] <@Serenity> makes sense to me!
[19:57] <@Serenity> Homework is "Assignment Think of something you have not yet accomplished in a dream, but would like to (example, flying, shooting a fireball from your hands, etc). Using what you know about control, how would now attempt to accomplish your goal? Every night before you go to sleep, remind yourself of the task and visualize yourself completing that goal. At the end of the week, suggest an alternative way of completing that task. "

Could this thread please be moved to the archive thread? Thanks much!