Thread: thought on the atheist model of death

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Too many or not enough? Lol!
what is this judgement relative to? More drugs than you? You did the right amount? Or the right kind?
But seriously, although I may be speaking poetically, try to see the meaning I am trying to express with my words.
I am not arguing, I am philosophizing.
All philosophy is just mind games anyway, there is no truth in it.
It is just for fun.
If you think that someone else's philosophy is crazy or wrong,
rest assured that yours is also.
If you think that someone else has done too many drugs,
you will not give yourself permission to understand them
without taking more drugs yourself.
My thoughts are not a result of drugs.
Drugs do not think or talk.
Neither does the brain.

It's not philosophy, it's just mindless babble.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

You may think of nothing as zero dimensions. Then empty space may be the expression of nothing in three dimensions,

Makes zero sense. How can, supposing "nothing is zero dimensions," it be "expressed in three dimensions"?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

but without anything relative to anything else, is there width, depth, height? This is the foundation of relativity. Something is only relative to something else, in the end, all equations balance with an equal sign, all accounts add up, all debts are paid, and what you are left with is nothing. Negentropy and entropy all are the turning of the tide dissolving back into the equilibrium of nothingness. All phenomena are passing phantoms, mirages, images in soap bubbles. Only appearing solid and real because they resonate with the same frequency as our thought, just like dreams appear real only when we are dreaming. But what sets the wave in motion? Chaos may be like silence, with no time signature. But there is a drumbeat to this Universe, and a rhythm to every orbit. Our heartbeats are in 2/4 or 4/4 time signature. If we add some swing (jazz) to this we get 6/8. If we add double swing we get 9/16. 6/8 time signature is swing interchangeably with the waltz (3/4). Thus all things and all dimensions are born from the first thing, the first beat. This first beat we call the Big Bang, but how did everything that exists come from a singularity of nothing with no dimensions?

Irrelevant pseudo-philosophical babble. Do you remember what the topic is, even?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Could it be that, just like "I", that the Universe is just an idea that dies with me/you?

Could it be? I suppose it could. Does it make any sense to say that it would? Nope.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Is the Universe any more real than the self? Yes and no. What happens to all the energy, all the form, all the shapes and colors? Questions like these don't have neat tidy answers.

That's because they're stupid questions. The first assumes there is some kind of degree of realness, which makes no sense. The second is just to vague to be meaningfully answered. What happens to them when what? When we die? Should something happen to them?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

The Universe isn't so black and white. Actually, it is the Cosmic Paradox that is the source of energy that powers this dream Universe like a dynamo. We can come to no conclusions. All ultimate conclusions are counterfeit. We settle for consolations or give up in despair and accept our lot. Either way we live in ignorance. Unless we don't fool ourselves with conclusions. If your mind is made up, if you can't see the truth of all contradictions, then you haven't penetrated the central kernel. The Universe is expanding. It is growing and evolving. If there is no soul, perhaps one will evolve as we consider the idea. On one side of the threshold we have the singularity as pure potential, on the other we have the singularity unfolded into a song that is you, your life, your world, your Universe, your Cosmic time scale from the big bang to the big crunch. Then the song is over. We give ourselves a standing ovation and an encore and do it all over again eternally.

Yet more babble.

Originally Posted by Mark75

It's not philosophy, it's just mindless babble.

That is what philosophy is!!!

That is what the original post is!!!

That is all anything uttered in this thread is or ever can be!!!

Don't take it so personally that you can't understand it.

It is lyrical.

Originally Posted by Supernova

The idea being that nothingness is only the opposite of existance, it is seen in contrast to existance. Thus, in this post-death void, if one can say nothing exists, it must be that nothing doesn't exist. In other terms, it's not a matter of everything not-existing, it's a matter of nothing existing or not-existing. Thus, one would not be afraid of not existing, as nothing will not exist.

Am I making any sense? It is very late...

I think it makes some sense, it means that the atheist model of death is invalid. If something can magically become non-existence so that non-existence exists, then it is nonsense. If you ever non-existed, or ever could non-exist, it would be an illusion. Because if you exist right now, you cannot ever "not exist"; in the total ontological meaning: existence is eternal.


Dannon, are you basically saying that nothing equals everything because of the fact that emptiness encompasses fullness and visa versa? Maybe that is an easier metaphor to use.

Originally Posted by really

I think it makes some sense, it means that the atheist model of death is invalid. If something can magically become non-existence so that non-existence exists, then it is nonsense. If you ever non-existed, or ever could non-exist, it would be an illusion. Because if you exist right now, you cannot ever "not exist"; in the total ontological meaning: existence is eternal.

Who said existence is eternal? You did? Is this some magical rule to reasoning? At least in the spiritual/mental sense.

Energy is what never ceases to exist. Remember, energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed. It always has to go somewhere and recycle itself. When a body dies, it rots in the ground, fertilizing the soil, feeding plants then animals and humans. We're all made of carbon. THAT'S where it goes. When our awareness and consciousness end, which is all basically electricity in the brain, the electricity leaves the brain and circulates back into the rest of the world.

It seems like people are trying way too hard to over-complicate this simple concept of reality with esoteric philosophical assumptions and logical fallacies just to try to "trump" the atheist model of death.

Well, if your awareness ceases to exist because you die....
Yet my awareness continues because I live....
Is my awareness other than yours?....

In other words, if my awareness is NOT you, then you must exist in order to exist separately from my awareness.
If my awareness IS you, then you are still aware.

However, the whole thing is that it isn't awareness that is lost, but the sense of 'I' as a soul or self.
It basically gets recycled into the matrix of awareness that everyone is a part of.

To reiterate, any conception of being separate from the whole, in life or death, is a delusional illusion.
But that doesn't mean that I think that we own an eternal soul or anything, that is more separateness.
We don't own anything, the whole owns us. We aren't anything, we are nothing or everything.
There is no self, the self is just an idea that dies with the brain.

"A human being is a part of the whole, called by us “Universe,” a part limited in time and space. He experiences his self, his thoughts, and feelings, as something separate from the rest-- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion, to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in it’s beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself part of the liberation and foundation for inner security."

--Albert Einstein

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

Who said existence is eternal? You did? Is this some magical rule to reasoning? At least in the spiritual/mental sense. You're making loads of unjustified assumptions in every sentence.

It's not unjustified, it's just a more abstract concept of existence. You pretty much expanded on it for me anyway:

Energy is what never ceases to exist. Remember science class? Energy, like matter, cannot be created or destroyed. It always has to go somewhere and recycle itself. When a body dies, it rots in the ground, fertilizing the soil, feeding plants then animals and humans.

It seems like people are trying way too hard to over-complicate this simple concept of reality with esoteric philosophical assumptions and logical fallacies just to try to "trump" the atheist model of death.

The model obviously trumps itself anyway because it negates any greater reality than that of analysis and science, which in itself means that at some level, it is actually a complication. Besides, our bodies contain carbon, but that doesn't mean our inner existence or consciousness is made of carbon.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

But that doesn't mean that I think that we own an eternal soul or anything, that is more separateness.

Just curious why you, in particular, believe this? Do you believe in Karma?

Originally Posted by really

The model obviously trumps itself anyway because it negates any greater reality than that of analysis and science, which in itself means that at some level, it is actually a complication. Besides, our bodies contain carbon, but that doesn't mean our inner existence or consciousness is made of carbon.

That's EXACTLY why it's the most rational model of death. Would you really rather just make up magical answers for what happens when you die, instead of just the facts? Do you really think that science is a bigger complication than fantasy? Science is real. Speculation is not provably real.

I'll tell you what, why don't we just throw out science all together and accuse people of being witches based on superstition and pure speculation about what reality is and isn't? And we can treat sick patients with poison. Disregarding science always works out well for civilization.

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

It seems like people are trying way too hard to over-complicate this simple concept of reality with esoteric philosophical assumptions and logical fallacies just to try to "trump" the atheist model of death.

simple concept of reality

Reality=simple concept? Reality is not a concept.

I don't think anybody is over-complicating the interface between consciousness and the body. I think that it may be one of the most complicated problems there is for philosophy, and science. It seems like only dogmatic religious fanatics are consoled by simple concepts of death. Think of how complicated digestion is, or hormonal and glandular and enzymatic secretions are. Metabolism. The menstrual cycle, conception, pregnancy, birth.

I don't think anybody is saying anything in contradiction to the atheist model of death. Do you exist as a separate independent being? Or are you just part of the whole?

We are carbon, yet that carbon is just a standing wave of energy that is always flowing. When we die the standing wave stands in the ground, then in the plants. But the same energy which cannot be destroyed continues to flow as if nothing happened.

What if someone said this to you:

It seems like people are trying way too hard to over-complicate this simple concept of reality with esoteric philosophical assumptions and logical fallacies just to try to "trump" the Christian model of death.

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

That's EXACTLY why it's the most rational model of death. Would you really rather just make up magical answers for what happens when you die, instead of just the facts? Do you really think that science is a bigger complication than fantasy? Science is real. Speculation is not provably real.

I'll tell you what, why don't we just throw out science all together and accuse people of being witches based on superstition and pure speculation about what reality is and isn't? And we can treat sick patients with poison. Disregarding science always works out well for civilization.

I really don't know where you're getting all of this, I quoted your post to support what I mentioned. What I said is not scientific, but it is not against it either. It is supporting of the existence of God and eternal life, however. Do you not think it makes sense; that non-existence is an illusory, arbitrary opposite to existence? Existence can be a universal term, as is eternal.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I don't think anybody is saying anything in contradiction to the atheist model of death. Do you exist as a separate independent being? Or are you just part of the whole?

The atheist model does not really accept that individual consciousness is part of the whole (or God) but that it is an emergent property of matter, in the sense that when we die, we do not transform, but we are somehow "deleted". Btw I asked you a question in case you didn't notice.

Originally Posted by really

I really don't know where you're getting all of this, I quoted your post to support what I mentioned. What I said is not scientific, but it is not against it either. It is supporting of the existence of God and eternal life, however. Do you not think it makes sense; that non-existence is an illusory, arbitrary opposite to existence? Existence can be a universal term, as is eternal.



The atheist model does not really accept that individual consciousness is part of the whole (or God) but that it is an emergent property of matter, in the sense that when we die, we do not transform, but we are somehow "deleted". Btw I asked you a question in case you didn't notice.

Sorry, I didn't see your post until after I responded, as you posted while I was writing my response to the previous post.

Basically, there is no such thing as non-existence. I don't mean "God" when I say the "Whole". That is a pantheistic philosophy. I avoid the word "God". However, I agree with a lot of the philosophy of pantheism, but I agree more with panentheism. Check it out these terms on wikipedia.

Just curious why you, in particular, believe this? Do you believe in Karma?

I believe that a soul is an optical illusion of consciousness as a separate individual stream of consciousness. That dies with the brain. The brain and the nervous system is a receiver and transformer of consciousness. Really, I have no beliefs that are contradictory to the atheist view of death. Yes, the body is consumed by microbes and fungi, or fire, or animals, or mummified, or cryogenically frozen. Consciousness leaves the body. The "I" exists no more. I believe in Karma, it means that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is also a law of physics. I also believe in the law of casuality, that everything has a cause. These are basic scientific and Buddhist principals.

What I am attempting to point out is that there is no such thing as non-existence. Or if there is, then there is no such thing as existence. It is either one way or the other. Either nothing is everything or everything is nothing. These are word games. The reality is that there is no such thing as non-existence. And that there is no such thing as an individual independent immortal soul or self of consciousness.

But nothing dies, it just changes form. There is still consciousness that continues in Nature. Just like the body, consciousness is recycled. I guess THIS is the point that atheists disagree with. I tried to communicate it before why it is an illusion to think that consciousness can be destroyed. It is because we are not separate from the whole (Universe, not God). If any being is still conscious than you are in that consciousness. Because if you were separate than that consciousness then you would exist as opposed to it in relation to it, to affirm that it is outside you. But since you are dead, you do not exist in the same form. There is no bubble of non-existence or vacuum that you disappear into that will keep you separate from the rest of the Universe after death. Your body returns to the Earth.

It is as if when we are alive we are bubbles on the ocean. When we die, the bubble pops and the water that forms the shape of the bubble returns to the water of the ocean (which it always was anyway) and the air inside the bubble returns to the atmosphere. New bubbles form with some of the same water and air in it. This is a metaphor, not to be taken literally.

However.... there are other frequencies of energy and matter that exist. What we know as the Universe is just a small range of frequencies in an infinite spectrum of energy. I believe that there are subtler forms of energy that remain invisible to our senses and our instruments. What we call physical death is just the death of the physical body. There may be subtler bubbles that have not popped. They may be so subtle as to let air pass freely in and out of them, but they still cause identification with a separate form and thus cause ignorance and suffering. True bliss is the total liberation of consciousness. In other words...total death.

Or you could say that we are each a separate wave in an infinite ocean we call the Universe. When a wave crashes on the beach it sucks back in and travels underneath the incoming waves until it is absorbed by them and becomes them. But it never ceases to exist.

Einstein claimed that he was an atheist pantheist.
The atheists that we interact with are atheist materialist.

Not all atheist believe in non-existence after death. Therefore, your 'atheist model of death' for all atheist is false.

I think accepting and embracing the impermanence of everything is the best way to truly appreciate and cherish every moment you have here. Leads to a better life.

Originally Posted by Mark75

The point is that "you" exist only as an idea and perception. As soon as the idea and perception stop, it is no more because that's all it was.

does this apply to an individual born both deaf and blind

You question is such a crassly offensive oversimplification that I can only assume it is a joke.

(Nothing) is not anything,
so it is not not anything.
Nothing is anything,
therefore it is everything.
----
Nothing does not exist.
Nothing cannot vanish.
Everything can vanish.
Everything includes nothing.

- Excerpts from The Unity of Nothing by Spencer Powers

Originally Posted by Mark75

You question is such a crassly offensive oversimplification that I can only assume it is a joke.

so is that a yes or no

It's a "Please don't ever speak to me again in your life."

But to answer, firstly and most obviously sight and hearing aren't the only two perceptions we have. A deaf and blind person can still taste, smell, feel, balance, etc.. Secondly, I did not mean to say that you exist as only your perceptions. Certainly I did not say that anyone exists only as their perception of sight and sound. What I meant is that you exist as a perception of yourself (a perception of your perceptions, if you will), which is what I would call consciousness. In my post before that I defined it more clearly:

[Your consciousness is the processes of your brain which are] generating thoughts, conceptualizing perceptions, attaching meaning to those perceptions or making associations between different pieces of information.

And I continued to elaborate on consciousness as it specifically relates to the perception of one's self:

"You" are not physical. "You" are an idea. "You" are a collection of information your brain has formed.

If you had read my posts, you would see why insultingly stupid your question is, because clearly I defined "self" and "consciousness" to include more than just sight and sound. Someone who is both blind and deaf can still have a concept of themselves. They can still recognize their remaining perceptions, as well as recognize that they are perceiving. It's the brain's kind of meta-understanding of itself and the rest of the body it finds itself in, of its function and situation that I define consciousness as. Deaf and blind people do not lack this.

ok

Although I am not an atheist, this explains some stuff.


Mainly @ Arcunum.