Thread: free speech zone

Hmm no.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I'm tired of all the hippies screaming "police brutality" at the G-20. They did a stand-up job, and I haven't heard of a single death or serious injury caused by the police. So a couple people got detained for 24 hours for hanging out with the wrong crowd, boohoo, wanna see what the police will do to you in some other countries? I thought all the security costs for the summit were way overkill until I saw those reports of people rioting, torching cop cars and vandalizing stores. Way to give Canada a good image...

*shakes head* Canadians don't know how to riot properly... they should learn from korea

Originally Posted by Xei

Hmm no.

Is Europe better then? Where you can't even deny the holocaust in half of it and even in countries as westernized as France they can fine you for criticizing some of their leaders/laws? Britain isn't so bad, but that's not all of Europe. Is South America or Asia in general better than us in regards to free speech? I should think not. But the U.S. and Canada as a whole are better than Europe as a whole. Australia's hate speech laws are more restrictive than Canada's. And the U.S. doesn't even have hate speech laws. If you reject my claim that North America in general has the best freedom of speech, then please give me an alternative.

why when asked if you think a free speech zone is counter intuitive do you just compare america to the rest of the world. stop changing the subject. we dont need to compare america with china or england. we need to go back to a more libertarian america. all you guys do is blah blah america is better than china, no shit. wow, something to be proud of. blah blah, america is better than england. great, thats why we left that dumb place. stop comparing us to them, worry about returning to what made america great.

Originally Posted by spockman

Is Europe better then? Where you can't even deny the holocaust in half of it and even in countries as westernized as France they can fine you for criticizing some of their leaders/laws? Britain isn't so bad, but that's not all of Europe. Is South America or Asia in general better than us in regards to free speech? I should think not. But the U.S. and Canada as a whole are better than Europe as a whole. Australia's hate speech laws are more restrictive than Canada's. And the U.S. doesn't even have hate speech laws. If you reject my claim that North America in general has the best freedom of speech, then please give me an alternative.

I think not being able to deny the holocaust pales in comparison to people being arrested for not obliging the authorities when they were told they were only allowed to practice free speech where nobody could see them.

I don't really get why you're insisting on taking the averages of entire continents anyway, I don't think fricking plate tectonics has much to do with any of this.

Originally Posted by Xei

I think not being able to deny the holocaust pales in comparison to people being arrested for not obliging the authorities when they were told they were only allowed to practice free speech where nobody could see them.

I don't really get why you're insisting on taking the averages of entire continents anyway, I don't think fricking plate tectonics has much to do with any of this.

Who was arrested for excercising their free speech outside of the zones? Who? I don't know that it has ever happened. If anything, the zones are pointless since we have free speech regardless. The point is that unlike a lot of what is being said, America has free speech that ties with the most free in the world. We don't have to average continents, anyway. It was just easier than looking at each of the westernized countires seperately. Plus, I hate when people bash the rights we are losing in the U.S., (I don't deny that we have lost a lot,) and ignore how f'ed up Europe is all over the place. Looking at individual countries, the U.S. has good free speech. Britain does, too. Canada is pretty decent. I can't think of other nations that equal these, though.

Originally Posted by spockman

Who was arrested for excercising their free speech outside of the zones? Who? I don't know that it has ever happened. If anything, the zones are pointless since we have free speech regardless. The point is that unlike a lot of what is being said, America has free speech that ties with the most free in the world. We don't have to average continents, anyway. It was just easier than looking at each of the westernized countires seperately. Plus, I hate when people bash the rights we are losing in the U.S., (I don't deny that we have lost a lot,) and ignore how f'ed up Europe is all over the place. Looking at individual countries, the U.S. has good free speech. Britain does, too. Canada is pretty decent. I can't think of other nations that equal these, though.

You should avoid naturalistic fallacies. They're bad for you.

Just because we have more flexible policies on free speech than any other country, doesn't mean we ought not to complain when we lose them.

There's plenty.

Freedom of speech by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The States is pretty great but it's not the lone bastion of freedom that, judging by the rhetoric from within, almost everybody living there thinks it is. There's 12 countries above you in the human development index which measures political freedom among other factors, including all of the Scandinavian countries.

As I said earlier in the thread, the number of arrests made under this free speech zone thing are pretty small; as are those under 'hate speech' laws. They're covered here:

Free speech zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doesn't only allowing pro-Bush signs near Bush seem pretty bad to you, though?

Originally Posted by malac

You should avoid naturalistic fallacies. They're bad for you.

Just because we have more flexible policies on free speech than any other country, doesn't mean we ought not to complain when we lose them.

I never said we shouldn't complain just because we are better off than other nations. The point of the above post was to show that other countries, largely Europes, shouldn't be ignored in it's rights violations. At any rate, our individual free speech isn't being taken away directly. Rather, we've lost privacy rights, some court rights, and even to a lesser but still fairly significant degree some media rights. This could lead to losing individual free speech, but it hasn't happened yet.

Originally Posted by Xei

There's plenty.

Freedom of speech by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The States is pretty great but it's not the lone bastion of freedom that, judging by the rhetoric from within, almost everybody living there thinks it is. There's 12 countries above you in the human development index which measures political freedom among other factors, including all of the Scandinavian countries.

As I said earlier in the thread, the number of arrests made under this free speech zone thing are pretty small; as are those under 'hate speech' laws. They're covered here:

Free speech zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doesn't only allowing pro-Bush signs near Bush seem pretty bad to you, though?

That's because the index is measuring political freedoms as a whole. I would never claim we are one of the best as far as all freedoms are concerned. In a lot of ways we are soley at the mercy of the government or DHS. Just as far as individual free speech, (what the OP is referencing,) there are none better. The examples you presented are pretty egregarious and the few which were illegal really make me wince. (When the president is on private property, there is little wrong with dismissing protestors other than ignorance, for example. When he is on public property, dismissing protestors is a crime.) The Bush presidency broke so many laws concerning our rights it is incredible. That whole time in our history had us heading for fascism and with it being less than one presidency behind us, the damage hasn't been undone. Thing about free speech zones is they were illegal and an implementation of a corrupt presidency. I am not justifying them, but hate speech laws are fully within the law in some countries.

And many of those 'Scandanavian' countries might fine me for wearing a shirt that says 'Homo's Go to Hell.' Despite how much that behaviour appals me, it is screwed up that people can't partake in it. Many think our freedom of speech goes too far. I can spread the knowledge on how to make an A-bomb if I am not telling them to/organizing a group of them to use one or make one. So even if a limitation on free speech is justifiable, it is still a limitation. Political freedoms as a whole? Maybe Scandanavian/Nordic countries beat us out. On free speech in general? Not a chance.

At any rate, thank you for bringing to my attention those illegal arrests. It is very interesting and frightening how the President and Secret Service can circumvent the laws and just get away with it...

Originally Posted by spockman

I never said we shouldn't complain just because we are better off than other nations. The point of the above post was to show that other countries, largely Europes, shouldn't be ignored in it's rights violations. At any rate, our individual free speech isn't being taken away directly. Rather, we've lost privacy rights, some court rights, and even to a lesser but still fairly significant degree some media rights. This could lead to losing individual free speech, but it hasn't happened yet.

I apologize for my mistake. I had little time to accurately access your post because my class was about to start, however the same principle still applies even when the two ideas differentiate.

Originally Posted by Xei

There's plenty.

Freedom of speech by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The States is pretty great but it's not the lone bastion of freedom that, judging by the rhetoric from within, almost everybody living there thinks it is. There's 12 countries above you in the human development index which measures political freedom among other factors, including all of the Scandinavian countries.

As I said earlier in the thread, the number of arrests made under this free speech zone thing are pretty small; as are those under 'hate speech' laws. They're covered here:

Free speech zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doesn't only allowing pro-Bush signs near Bush seem pretty bad to you, though?

I was aware of my assumption before I decided to post it, but as mentioned before, I had a finite amount of time, and so I decided to type it anyway so that I could give a point.

S*rry gUYZ!

Originally Posted by malac

I apologize for my mistake. I had little time to accurately access your post because my class was about to start, however the same principle still applies even when the two ideas differentiate.

I was aware of my assumption before I decided to post it, but as mentioned before, I had a finite amount of time, and so I decided to type it anyway so that I could give a point.

S*rry gUYZ!

S'alright. I've done the same thing before.

This is somewhat related to this conversation. FOXNews.com - Pentagon Destroys Copies of Controversial Memoir Written by Army Officer seems like a bunch of bs to me, but im sure ill be called unpatriotic...or collaborating with al qaeda. thoughts? more thought provoking info here White House invokes state secrets privilege to block targeted killings suit - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room

Originally Posted by poopman

This is somewhat related to this conversation. FOXNews.com - Pentagon Destroys Copies of Controversial Memoir Written by Army Officer seems like a bunch of bs to me, but im sure ill be called unpatriotic...or collaborating with al qaeda. thoughts? more thought provoking info here White House invokes state secrets privilege to block targeted killings suit - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room

I doubt anyone will wig at you over that here on DV. Besides... Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.