thought on the atheist model of death

[Supernova]

Well, we all know what I mean, the idea of just not existing on any level whatsoever. And we all understand the idea that this is a frightening concept to some, the idea of not getting to move on to an afterlife and having all experience ended. And we understand how some have compared it to the state of being (or rather not-being) before birth. But there's one bit that's missing. I thought of this whilereading these lines from the Book of Lies, the beginning of the first chapter: The Ante Primal Triad which is NOT-GOD Nothing is. Nothing Becomes. Nothing is not. The idea being that nothingness is only the opposite of existance, it is seen in contrast to existance. Thus, in this post-death void, if one can say nothing exists, it must be that nothing doesn't exist. In other terms, it's not a matter of everything not-existing, it's a matter of nothing existing or not-existing. Thus, one would not be afraid of not existing, as nothing will not exist. Am I making any sense? It is very late...

[ninja9578]

After you die, you no longer exist, yes.

[Philosopher8659]

What I see is this. Running : Legs :: Awareness : brain. However, that has nothing to do with the existence or non-existence of the source of the "God" Mythos. The source of the myths can be internal or in fact external. I was an agnostic. My belief was, if "God" existed, whatever it was could be found like anything else. Even birds at least leave bird-shit. Now, I have had some very strange experiences in my life, led to understandings that, quite frankly, demonstrate the existence of at least the Judeo-Christian mythos has a real source and that the metaphores all resolved to quite simple biological facts about the evolution of the mind of man. That does not, however, justify religious mythology. What I should do, I should not do because I am mortal, but because it is right--in compliance with the fact that while I am alive, my actions should be to maintain and promote that existence. That this mortality is a constant is not known to me. The most perplexing thing to me is not about "God" or life after death, it is the fact that man is drawing a blank about how to structure their own life in a productive manner. The sooner man learns to think, that is attains to a minimum psychological profile, the more productive humanity as a whole can be. However, there are at the moment a majority quite incapable of it. Focus must be upon nurturing a promising minority.

[Cosmix]

Well, we all know what I mean, the idea of just not existing on any level whatsoever. And we all understand the idea that this is a frightening concept to some, the idea of not getting to move on to an afterlife and having all experience ended. And we understand how some have compared it to the state of being (or rather not-being) before birth. But there's one bit that's missing. I thought of this whilereading these lines from the Book of Lies, the beginning of the first chapter: The Ante Primal Triad which is NOT-GOD Nothing is. Nothing Becomes. Nothing is not. The idea being that nothingness is only the opposite of existance, it is seen in contrast to existance. Thus, in this post-death void, if one can say nothing exists, it must be that nothing doesn't exist. In other terms, it's not a matter of everything not-existing, it's a matter of nothing existing or not-existing. Thus, one would not be afraid of not existing, as nothing will not exist. Am I making any sense? It is very late... This stuff trips me out. If reality is based on your perspective or is subjective, then when you die - cease to exist - then that must mean the entire life you lived never existed in the first place, but then would that mean you were never conscious... and how would you know any of it if you cease to exist - have never existed in the first place. Endless loops. But I guess that would assume duality to be true.

[Supernova]

Endless loops. Tryin' to make some sense of it all but I can see it makes no sense at all

[Dannon Oneironaut]

If Nothing exists after death, it exists now. Nothing, as a positive thing, can have no boundaries, no supports, no reliance, no beginning, no end. Nothing, as a negative thing, ie. just the absence of 'something' also, has no supports, no reliance, no beginning, and no end. If nothing as a positive thing doesn't exist, then it exists as a negative thing. It depends upon your viewpoint. Saying that nothing exists is similar to saying that everything exists. It is easier to comprehend infinity in terms of nothingness than everythingness. Peeling away the layers of an onion, trying to find the soul of the onion that survives death, one peels the last layer away and is left with nothing. Or the whole universe remains. What we call the universe is just small limited frequencies of an infinite spectrum of energy. All but a small finite slice of the spectrum is invisible, unknown and unknowable to us. Since it is invisible, un-inferable, we call it nothingness, if we call it anything at all. Life and death are revealed to be positive and negative states of a wave of energy respectively. All conceptions are only concepts, without true understanding, it is futile and useless to comprehend, and the mystery cannot be put into words, so cannot be communicated.

[eperbokor]

Humans overcomplicate the concept of nothing. Nothing is something that can't be explained in _human terms_, because if you do then it's not nothing, it gains a property given by you, therefore your view on nothing becomes something and you confuse yourself and other people. But if I should try to explain it, then I would gave it the property: What a piece of cheese in Amsterdam thinks(I assume it doesn't) of the center of the universe(if it has such). Humanity has the chance saying that "I don't wanna die!". So the concept of eternity pops up. Heaven's gates open. This is what people like to believe, I wanna believe very very much, if someone could provide me with any evidence at all. I love Philosopher8659's saying: "Even birds at least leave bird-shit." We die, brain functions stop, so death to us at that time will hold no meaning. Nature doesn't give a shit about anything, it just is. Concepts are humans constructs.

[Dannon Oneironaut]

All things begin and end in eternity. Nothing doesn't begin and end in eternity. Isn't this self-evident?

[ArcanumNoctis]

I don't know. Scientifically speaking, physical matter is just one state. This means our bodies are just one state of physical existence. That doesn't mean there aren't other states of existence, which to vehemently think otherwise seems rather closed minded. Not bashing atheists or anything like that. Just giving a logic.

[♥Mark]

All things begin and end in eternity. Nothing doesn't begin and end in eternity. Isn't this self-evident? Because "nothing" doesn't have a size, location or form because it's only a negatively defined concept? It's essentially true that "nothing" does not exist because everywhere you look there is something. "Nothing" only enters the equation when you're looking for a specific something. When you look for your keys but find nothing, or when you die and you think of nothing. There is not a tangible "nothing" there, but rather a something which is missing or different. This definition of "nothing" is useful, practical and relevant to human experience. Isn't that self-evident? I don't know. Scientifically speaking, physical matter is just one state. This means our bodies are just one state of physical existence. That doesn't mean there aren't other states of existence, which to vehemently think otherwise seems rather closed minded. Not bashing atheists or anything like that. Just giving a logic. Correct. The physical state that your body ascends to when you die is, in part, one where your brain is no longer generating thoughts, conceptualizing perceptions, attaching meaning to those perceptions or making associations between different pieces of information. Another words, it is a physical state in which the processes (which are the result of physical things, but not physical themselves) which collectively compose your consciousness, including your perception of your "self" have ceased. "You" are not physical. "You" are an idea. "You" are a collection of information your brain has formed. "You" will stop when your brain stops. Unfortunately for "you", your brain is a physical and sadly very squishy object which is prone to breaking or shutting down after a few times around the sun.

[ArcanumNoctis]

Because "nothing" doesn't have a size, location or form because it's only a negatively defined concept? It's essentially true that "nothing" does not exist because everywhere you look there is something. "Nothing" only enters the equation when you're looking for a specific something. When you look for your keys but find nothing, or when you die and you think of nothing. There is not a tangible "nothing" there, but rather a something which is missing or different. This definition of "nothing" is useful, practical and relevant to human experience. Isn't that self-evident? Correct. The physical state that your body ascends to when you die is, in part, one where your brain is no longer generating thoughts, conceptualizing perceptions, attaching meaning to those perceptions or making associations between different pieces of information. Another words, it is a physical state in which the processes (which are the result of physical things, but not physical themselves) which collectively compose your consciousness, including your perception of your "self" have ceased. Which you are basically saying if the perception of your "self" ceases, then you don't exist . That isn't entirely true because we don't know exactly what constitutes pure existence. If a bear shits in the woods and you didn't see it, did it shit? Does the bear even exist for that matter? Just because you don't perceive something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The same would go if your perception or how others perceive you dissolves, even in death. That is why I said physical existence ends, but that doesn't mean all existence doesn't because physical matter is just one form of energy. I guess the answer would be can we effect ourselves on a molecular level? If so, then chemically, molecularly, or otherwise we still exist even with the dreaded change in our body's unfortunate state.

[♥Mark]

The point is that "you" exist only as an idea and perception. As soon as the idea and perception stop, it is no more because that's all it was.

[ArcanumNoctis]

The point is that "you" exist only as an idea and perception. As soon as the idea and perception stop, it is no more because that's all it was. Okay, so when does my computer stop existing? We can't fathom the universe, yet it exists. Alternatively, to think otherwise means we are responsible for creating the universe. I think you are confusing existence with something else or you need to elaborate more specifically as to what you mean exactly. I'm not talking about Consciousness, I'm talking about existence.

[♥Mark]

Our concept of the existence of your computer and the universe have elements which reside outside of the conceptualization itself. Again, "you" are your concept of "you." I don't see what you're having trouble understanding about this. All your consciousness (IE, "you") is is the amalgamation of the functions of your brain. When they stop, so do "you." It's really that straightforward.

[ArcanumNoctis]

Our concept of the existence of your computer and the universe have elements which reside outside of the conceptualization itself. Again, "you" are your concept of "you." I don't see what you're having trouble understanding about this. All your consciousness (IE, "you") is is the amalgamation of the functions of your brain. When they stop, so do "you." It's really that straightforward. The biological functions that made you capable of Consciousness do stop, but that isn't existence. I would totally dive into what potentials drive Consciousness, but that would derail the topic. Sorry, can't help anymore with the discussion.

[♥Mark]

Obviously it isn't existence itself, but it is your existence. :x

[ArcanumNoctis]

Obviously it isn't existence itself, but it is your existence. :x lol, mebe.

[♥Mark]

What else would you suggest your existence could be?

[Dannon Oneironaut]

It is interesting that the Universe is mostly nothing, even inside atoms, and sub-atomic particles. All dust in an infinite field of nothing. These particles end up being nothing other than crests of waves of energy. So the universe is actually mostly nothing and energy that appears as to how we perceive it to be. It is hypothesized that energy is just waves of nothingness. The dissolution of consciousness and all conceptions of self ("you", "me", "I") at death because they are nothing other than ideas, is exactly the teachings of Buddhism, which, interestingly enough, also teaches that everything is inherently empty and also teaches a philosophical theory of relativity and cause and affect. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Then, what is dark matter? The parallels between the the atheist concept of death and the Buddhist concept with cessation of consciousness is notable.

[ArcanumNoctis]

It is interesting that the Universe is mostly nothing, even inside atoms, and sub-atomic particles. All dust in an infinite field of nothing. These particles end up being nothing other than crests of waves of energy. So the universe is actually mostly nothing filled with energy that appears as to how we perceive it to be. The dissolution of consciousness and all conceptions of self ("you", "me", "I") at death because they are nothing other than ideas, is exactly the teachings of Buddhism, which, interestingly enough, also teaches that everything is inherently empty and also teaches a philosophical theory of relativity and cause and affect. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The parallels between the the atheist concept of death and the Buddhist concept with cessation of consciousness is notable. Probably why my girlfriend considers herself both Atheist and Buddhist. Read "Slaughter-House-Five". I was introduced to the book by her. It is almost like an open book to my mind, which is kind of creepy. The only catch is I see freewill differently. Very complexly differently...

[♥Mark]

It is interesting that the Universe is mostly nothing, even inside atoms, and sub-atomic particles. All dust in an infinite field of nothing. These particles end up being nothing other than crests of waves of energy. So the universe is actually mostly nothing and energy that appears as to how we perceive it to be. It is hypothesized that energy is just waves of nothingness. The dissolution of consciousness and all conceptions of self ("you", "me", "I") at death because they are nothing other than ideas, is exactly the teachings of Buddhism, which, interestingly enough, also teaches that everything is inherently empty and also teaches a philosophical theory of relativity and cause and affect. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Then, what is dark matter? The parallels between the the atheist concept of death and the Buddhist concept with cessation of consciousness is notable. Except it's not really nothing, it's just empty. Space is still something. "Field of nothing" makes no sense literally speaking, since true nothingness would not have any span or dimension.

[ArcanumNoctis]

Except it's not really nothing, it's just empty. Space is still something. Coexist!

[♥Mark]

What?

[Dannon Oneironaut]

You may think of nothing as zero dimensions. Then empty space may be the expression of nothing in three dimensions, but without anything relative to anything else, is there width, depth, height? This is the foundation of relativity. Something is only relative to something else, in the end, all equations balance with an equal sign, all accounts add up, all debts are paid, and what you are left with is nothing. Negentropy and entropy all are the turning of the tide dissolving back into the equilibrium of nothingness. All phenomena are passing phantoms, mirages, images in soap bubbles. Only appearing solid and real because they resonate with the same frequency as our thought, just like dreams appear real only when we are dreaming. But what sets the wave in motion? Chaos may be like silence, with no time signature. But there is a drumbeat to this Universe, and a rhythm to every orbit. Our heartbeats are in 2/4 or 4/4 time signature. If we add some swing (jazz) to this we get 6/8. If we add double swing we get 9/16. 6/8 time signature is swing interchangeably with the waltz (3/4). Thus all things and all dimensions are born from the first thing, the first beat. This first beat we call the Big Bang, but how did everything that exists come from a singularity of nothing with no dimensions? Could it be that, just like "I", that the Universe is just an idea that dies with me/you? Is the Universe any more real than the self? Yes and no. What happens to all the energy, all the form, all the shapes and colors? Questions like these don't have neat tidy answers. The Universe isn't so black and white. Actually, it is the Cosmic Paradox that is the source of energy that powers this dream Universe like a dynamo. We can come to no conclusions. All ultimate conclusions are counterfeit. We settle for consolations or give up in despair and accept our lot. Either way we live in ignorance. Unless we don't fool ourselves with conclusions. If your mind is made up, if you can't see the truth of all contradictions, then you haven't penetrated the central kernel. The Universe is expanding. It is growing and evolving. If there is no soul, perhaps one will evolve as we consider the idea. On one side of the threshold we have the singularity as pure potential, on the other we have the singularity unfolded into a song that is you, your life, your world, your Universe, your Cosmic time scale from the big bang to the big crunch. Then the song is over. We give ourselves a standing ovation and an encore and do it all over again eternally.

[♥Mark]

Either that or you've just done too many drugs.