look around us, everywhere we see people just tearing other people down, trying to prove them wrong, insulting them, etc etc.
why are we as society so caught up with doing this?
why can't we waste our time and energy on beneficial things.
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look around us, everywhere we see people just tearing other people down, trying to prove them wrong, insulting them, etc etc.
why are we as society so caught up with doing this?
why can't we waste our time and energy on beneficial things.
Humans will always have a burning urge to be right and as Foucault says knowledge is power. In an ideal world everyone would be right about everything even if it contradicted reality but this would be a paradox, there is such thing as true and false despite what people want to believe.
I would imagine that this thread is largely a shot at the discussions on R/S. It depends on how you look at it, you could say someone is "tearing apart" someones ideas and another would say it is just a logical discourse. Alot of people on dreamviews are really scared of being contradicted or proved wrong in front of all their friends and that is their problem in my opinion. I love debates but if you notice my posts I never call anyone an idiot or stupid, its not my style.
Like I said many people find confrontation to be threatening, I however find it to be constructive. We grow from confrontation, this is what has sped along evolution, it makes us stronger and better able to face new challenges. Consider the dialectical process: we have the thesis(original idea) opposed to the antithesis(opposing idea) and together they form the synthesis(combination of both ideas).
Anyway I'm done.
obviously it depends on your example, but here on Dreamviews, we have discussions about many different things. if I could use these as an example, I would say that you're wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
we're not trying to tear people down. not actively, at least. we're sharing knowledge. that's what discussions are. we're not yelling at each other, telling everyone how stupid they are. we're saying they're wrong, then giving reasons why they're wrong, and asking them why they believe what they do. it's not about being shitty to other people, it's about letting intelligence and knowledge flow from person to person. that's what the internet should be used for.
to add to your point, everything about capitalism is a rat race. it's all about being better than the next guy. competition. it's inherently ingrained in my society is about priding yourself on being better than that guy over there. obviously this kind of thinking encourages put-downs and pedestals.
so what can you do to help? how do we prevent this? by letting people know what they're doing. tell someone they're being a dick. tell them they're being shitty, and give them reasons why.
I catch your drift. (did I just say that?) and its not even the R/S section, just anything really. I don't see anything in an actual helpful discussion with CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, not calling people stupid or idiots, just because you don't believe the same thing. I don't see why all the hate is so "necessary" to have a "helpful" "debate", when really its just attacking people. Even if I'm with friends or whomever and they just say someone is fat or ugly, I don't get how someone can say that.....I don't feel comfortable when people are saying stuff like that :/Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow
honestly, some people on DV are just dicks. They're everywhere, yes there are constructive things on here but not everything is. Obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by no-Name
but why does everything have to be a competition in the first place, I know thats how the world is, but what about being kind? what happened to that? we act like its so great to put other people down.
Keep in mind that the internet is an awful medium to convey emotions, that why I sometimes add little smiley faces when I dont want my post to be taken as hostile.:D
here's an example of what I'm talking about, one of my friends is really homophobic.
In one of my classes we talked about homosexuality, most people were against it and I proudly said I supported it, I'm not gay, but I still don't see what is so "wrong" about it.
Love is love, right? why do people have to be so hate filled toward these people for something that doesn't even effect their lives....I try to talk to her, but she doesn't listen. She doesn't care, or even try to.
also, this thread isn't to cause problems or arguments....that isn't my intention because I hate arguments
sure, but that's ignorance. a lack of knowledge. which is what I was talking about. if you learn to talk to her, you can teach her, and convince her that there's nothing wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
why is she ignorant, though? because her parents or friends are/were, or she had a bad experience with someone that happened to be homosexual. or possibly some other scenario. it's not important why, only that we end it.
yes but she is an extremely stubborn person...its very hard convincing her of anything without her getting mad and ignoring youQuote:
Originally Posted by no-Name
Some people are raised in a culture that views knowledge as a threat. My advice is to talk to her rationally, articulately and assertively. I have experienced people who wont even listen to what you are trying to say and that's fine they can stay in their bubble. Best thing to do is to shrug it off, you tried your best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
How could you call people on DV dicks? It's because that's how you feel. When your friends call somebody fat or ugly, it is because that is how they feel. Humans have a desire to share their feelings and be understood. You also have to take into account that not all people are perhaps as... sensitive or caring as you (towards others or yourself). Some people are like you, and care very much whether someone is being insulted, excluded, or anything of that nature. Others simply don't care. They don't have an emotional connection with that human being, and they honestly couldn't give two shits about how they feel. That's just the way of the world. Imo, it seems like caring for others would be a biological imperative for humans. However, as life has been less about survival for some time now, I believe that that biological imperative is fading, and the result is the seething hate and/or utter disregard for other human beings that you see today.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
I could be wrong, but that's what I think.
Human nature bro, the best you can do is realize it, and try not to be a dick. I would probably say something different if a dick member said this, but with that being said, you are not part of the dick member population lol.
is that a good enough excuse for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
you're not going to do anything either? just going to let people be dicks? not doing anything at all to help?Quote:
Originally Posted by fautzo
All (fine, most) people live in a dichotomous world of black and white. Ergo, if this person is less credible/intelligent/strong/awesome/sexy, I should point it out because that will raise me up on the scale and make me more credible/intelligent/strong/awesome/sexy. That's how I see it.
With regards to prejudices, that's just ignorance and indoctrination. If you've always been taught that gays are bad, and you see (see is a key word, some can't find it and some shut their eyes when it is presented) no really new evidence to suggest that gays are not bad, why would your belief change? Also, different is scary, and most people would rather there not be differences between people than celebrate diversity.
Self improvement is the first step to improving the world yo.Quote:
Originally Posted by no-Name
sure. but that's completely unrelated. unless there's something you were saying about me?Quote:
Originally Posted by fautzo
we can do both at the same time. I often learn plenty by teaching, or through discussion.
@ snoop, I said dick because no-name mentioned dicks in DV
@ no-Name, well, I have no way to break the barrier of her stubbornness, I have tried all of the tactics I can, without trying to be too assertive.
well you can call someone out for being a dick but a lot of the time they don't realize it and just end up not liking you.
This isn't entirely true at all though, this is just from my experience, it's completely different to tell someone their faults irl and on the internet, they only way you can take constructive criticism (at least in my opinion) is if you're open to listening at the time. A lot of the time, people aren't.
I understand the discussion part, but I'm a little confused on the teaching part, when are we gonna teach people how to act, if we're a role model?
when I tell someone they're wrong, I give them reasons why they're wrong. they're still wrong if they happen to not like me while I'm telling them they're wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by fautzo
yup.Quote:
This isn't entirely true at all though, this is just from my experience, it's completely different to tell someone their faults irl and on the internet, they only way you can take constructive criticism (at least in my opinion) is if you're open to listening at the time. A lot of the time, people aren't.
when I see someone being a dick, I confront them about it and engage in a conversation with them. I converse with them, and tell them why they're being a dick, and how to stop it.Quote:
I understand the teaching and discussion part, but I'm a little confused on the teaching part, when are we gonna teach people how to act, if we're a role model?
obviously we should take our own advice, and live by it. double standards are pretty bad.
Yea, that does work, I think everybody has been told that at least once, and I usually fuckin hate it, even if I know they're right, but I usually only listen if it comes from a person I have a lot of respect for.Quote:
Originally Posted by no-Name
I can't handle confrontation or chaos. My home, while growing up, was overflowing with it. My dad called my mom a fat cow/bitch/lazy/useless and mom called him an ass and a bastard. Daily. For most of my life, I was a complete doormat and did everything possible to avoid anger.
When I was about 13 years old I started "training" myself to be NOTHING like my parents. I was a self-injurer and "punished" myself if I ever hurt someone else (or a variety of other reasons). I called it my "Pavlos Dog's" training. For the most part, it worked a little too well.
These past 10 years or so have been easier for me to show anger.
Growing up as I did, I still don't understand the aggression of other people.
If anyone near me is being an ass, I simply tell them to "Be nice". When my kids want to tell me a joke, the first thing I ask is "Is it appropriate?" If a stranger is being an ass, I make excuses for their emotions and stay about my business (maybe they lost their job or their spouse left them or they're just having a rotten day). I can usually shrug it off. But if someone is being physically abusive, I'll step right in.
As for being right... I can personally feel vindicated in my own beliefs but I understand not everyone will share that view :D So, if I'm having a "debate" or something, I'll say my piece then be quiet. I'll explain my position as best as possible, but I'm not going to argue simply for the point of saying words. They wont convince me otherwise and I won't convince them. It's drives me bananas when people constantly try to one-up each other.
Not everybody's obsessed with that sort of thing. I love to have intellectual conversations. It's just that debates always have more than one viewpoint, and you need to debate (not argue, debate) in order to find the best answer/solution to the problem.
Now, I know that it gets heated when people are talking about religious views, but that's because religious individuals hold views that they were taught ever since they were growing up, and it makes them uncomfortable when people challenge their beliefs. Eventually you end up having a never ending stream of logical fallacies from the creationists' side, atheists tearing them a new asshole, mockery coming from both sides, etc, and so it gets very emotional for some people who can't handle a real debate. However in most other debates, aside from politics, this is not the case. It's simply a handful of people throwing out ideas and analyzing the subject to prove the point they think is right, and when someone gets proved wrong, it's not a big deal.
Personally, I'm more concerned with advancing my own viewpoint. I don't tie myself to any particular views because that doesn't allow personal progress. Therefore, I'm not interested very much at all in simply defending my position for the sake of it; however, my intelligence permits me to take the best position and defend it pretty well in the large majority of debates. ;)
Well said sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by MindGames
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lh...t5b0o1_400.gif
Do you think that it's because people are wrong and that you're just projecting the part about people trying to make themselves look good? It is a little sloppy and arrogant to make presumptions concerning others motives.
As someone who sometimes posts very bluntly and passionately, there are probably several people here who would consider me 'a bit of a dick'. There's likely some truth in that.
However, the reason why I go about that isn't because of a need to make myself feel superior, get a kick out of insulting people, or love ripping apart peoples' beliefs, nor is it because I'm filled with hatred.
When I do post in such a way, then there's generally a constructive reason behind it. Others will disagree with me here, but sometimes, I think the benefit of saying to someone "you're being fucking stupid" outweighs the drawbacks. Now I'm not perfect and I'm flawed like everyone else, and have bad days, but generally that is the case.
It's important to note that my reasons are not the same as for many others out there. Some simply look for a target. Some attack others out of fear, or because they perceive something about that person as being an attack on their beliefs. It might be to gain social acceptance by conforming to group beliefs. In the case of someone calling another 'fat' or 'ugly' then it could even be an immature way of expressing disgust. The person might well be insecure. There are a whole bunch of reasons.
Photolysis is correct, along with some points others have made.
There are many reasons.
I think the most common, though, is that people aren't sure of their ideas or beliefs.
When you debate with someone over anything, and they realise you might be correct, because they don't know everything about the topic, or they just aren't sure for whatever reason, but they have been pretending to themselves and others that they are sure, they get embarrassed and want to defend their position to save their face. Since they have no logical reasons with which to defend their position, they resort to anger.
I suspect this is the case with your friend. Either that or she is gay and doesn't want to admit it.
I also sometimes feign anger as a tactic, but it's controlled and I express it as sureness. There's a slight difference.
Other times I am so dumbfounded how someone cannot see their stupidity that I get unbelievably exasperated. Or depressed.
Heh.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
For some of us it's just naturally effortless.
Arguing does three things: (1) Perfects (or shows the flaws in) arguments. (2) Educates me. (3) Shows how some people are just dead wrong about things, which leads to the realm of who-can-come-up-with-the-most-creative-personal-attack(s).
Why are we so obsessed at proving others wrong and making ourselves look good?
I'm not sure that's the thing everyone does. But whatever, here goes nothing:
1) Because some people do not know any better, and actively search for a higher social status or self fulfillment, whether unconscious or not, or
2) Because some people think it is worth arguing about. If certain topics are of great importance to them personally, I can see why they'd be ferocious in their defense when they feel attacked, whether unconscious or not...
Also, one minor note: I always got the impression that 'knowledge is power' meant something else in contrast to 'when you have knowledge, you have power over stuff'. Foucault's philosophy was all about how every single human was bombarded by mechanisms of power designed to shape you into a certain mold, whether intentional or not. As in: seeing that we are the sum of our experiences, then the things we experience have tremendous effect on who we turn out to become. This power takes many forms, from the media, to entertainment, to the word on the street, to social convention, to law , to the current scientific consensus. Everything shapes you in some way or form. As such, the power in Foucault's sense is invisible. It isn't "done" by anyone, mostly. It's just there. It's in the zeitgeist. It is the zeitgeist.
As such, knowledge is power means exactly that: the knowledge you gain during your lifetime will shape the 'glasses' through which you might see and interact with the world. As such, the knowledge you gain will end up having "power" over you.
Do note, though, that this 'power' doesn't necessarily have to be malignant. 'Power' has a bit of a negative vibe to it, but that's just how you've been conditioned by power mechanics, right? In Foucault's philosophy, power just 'is'. It isn't good, it isn't evil. Hell, morality doesn't even exist in the sense of universal rules for the betterment of the world. Morality is just as subject to change as anything else is. It is itself a mechanism of power (again: note that power is truly neutral) and is transformed over the years by other sources of power as well.
FWIW,
Tim
Your username becomes you.Quote:
Originally Posted by sloth
Great post. I'm tackling Foucault's The Archaeology of Knowledge right now and having some difficulty, its a dense book. Thanks for clarifying what he means by knowledge is power. I had taken it as saying that our accumulated knowledge affects how we take action in the world and thus is an exertion of power.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimB
Being homophobic doesn't mean you are lacking some critical insight into knowledge. It is merely an aesthetic choice. Homophobic people find homosexuality disgusting.Quote:
Originally Posted by no-Name
What you are saying in your post is akin to calling a person ignorant because they don't like a Picasso painting or a Pollock painting.
what do "personal attacks" accomplish in the end for the person being attacked?Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUELINE976
I've noticed that there are a few people here on DV who always have to be right (and will not admit they are wrong even when proven wrong) and greatly enjoy deriding others and aggrandizing themselves in a fatuous display. It's disappointing because this arrogance belies any great intelligence they are purported to have.
For me personally, I enjoy being right, but not to make anyone else look bad or to make myself more important. For me it's merely a challenge of my own wit, while at the same time, hopefully, helping someone to learn more. I am more than happy to admit that I may be completely ignorant about any given situation, and I am careful to make sure that when I do make claims, they are correct and have plenty of support. I won't hesitate to admit when I am wrong. The people described above are the ones that I have the biggest problem with, because, unlike me, they are unable to approach discourse with any sense of humility, and are incapable of extending to me the same courtesies that I extend to them, which is, mostly, the possibility of being wrong, and the desire to learn what is right.
I think people always fight about the same things we always have. Religion and politics or topics that fall close to these areas like the supernatural and things you can not prove. People always get hot. I myself am pretty middle of the road and often make both sides of these issues pissed. I think there is a higher power even though am by no means a big holy roller so often the atheist or agnostic thinks I am hopelessly simple. The big time religious person thinks I am on my way to a warm stay in hell unless I change my ways, break out my bible and burn my Tarot cards! You just can not win! So I usually just do not say too much about these things.
Nothing, but it sure is fun. They're usually reserved for when two people hit a wall and can't constructively argue anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
so its fun to attack people for your own selfish reasons?Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUELINE976
Personal attacks are the last refuge of the defeated in my opinion.
If a conversation is going absolutely nowhere, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
Don't get confused and think I employ personal attacks right off the bat. But when two people hit a wall and will not even listen to what each other is saying, the chances that a personal attack will be thrown rise considerably.
I personally believe that the motivations for the aversion to homosexuality are irrational and largely a cultural/religious construction. Irrationality is a lack of critical insight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
I don't think you are using the correct definition of irrational. Irrational means an action beyond reason. Homophobes have a reason. You may not like it but they have one. Really no irrational action, action being the purposeful behavior of applying means to ends, is possible. Irrationality is more akin to a involuntary twitch or contraction.Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
LOLMG. I can see that you actually believe this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
This is your argument-
Homosexuals look no different to any other person, but it's an aesthetic choice to be scared of, or by extension, hate them.
No.
Well, I've noticed, that when people do good, or humble things (or other things which harm their ego a bit), it usually goes unnoticed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquanina
For example, if I clean up the kitchen my mum won't even notice. But when I don't, she notices and gets frustrated that it's "always dirty" or whatever.
Similarly you may be only noticing when people defend their position even in light of the fact that they are clearly wrong, but forgetting about the times that they do change their view and admit the other person is right. Or you may have just missed the times that they admitted they were wrong.
Going a bit off topic here but....
I don't really hate when people do this, or even dislike it. It's normal, and if they have enough introspection, they will admit it to themselves later on.
What I do dislike, is when people don't finish an argument because they know they are wrong or can't back up anything they say so they're just like "I don't wanna argue right now/about this!".
This has probably been said but EGO
We want to prove other people wrong because we think that makes us better than them because we are right. It only keeps you caught up in duality. someone is better than someone else. Really I think it makes you look stupider than whoever your trying to prove wrong. Because nobody is better than anyone else. We are all perfect. The only thing that makes anything less perfect than anything else is you own subjective judgment of it. If you can't wrap your mind around that. Basically you create a though or belief in your mind. This alters the way you percieve the world subjectively (meaning you only see it this way because you think it). realize this godddamit!!!!! People are soo stupid and don't realize things are good or bad or right or wrong or ugly or beautiful only because you think they are. Everything is beautiful. I see all of you as beautiful. You are all special in your own way.
It has nothing to do with what they look like but the actions they commit. I have nothing against homosexuals. I'm not offended by what they do or how they choose to live their lives. The mere explanation of why some people are homophobic does not make the explainer a homophobe. So you "see" me incorrectly which doesn't really surprise me.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Lol I see you projected your own feelings in to what I said. I never said you were a homophobe, at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
I said I see you actually believe what you are saying; that homophobes have an aesthetic repulsion to homosexuals.
The point is, homophobes are mostly likely never going to see homosexuals doing anything they find disgusting. Homophobes are scared and sometimes they hate homosexuals. Aesthetics doesn't come in to the equation, it's just ignorance.
homophobes usually hate "femininity" or "weakness" in men, and that happens when they can't accept their fragile, sweet and submissive nature so they lock it in, and when some feminine guy is in front of them it makes them remember so they have to make the feminine guy disappear or treat him like shit so that their femininity seems less important to them.
Answering the creator of this thread , people tend to bring others down because it's easier to eliminate threats than to trust in other people and look for solutions, being able to show someone wrong actually gives you more security in being able to control other threats that may come your way.
I think people are homophobes because they don't want men being attracted to them. not that they don't like who they are, although that might also be the case to. Its just kind of akward for some straight guys if they feel another man might be attracted to them.
Ignorance of what exactly? You make this claim yet give no proof to back it up. This is a really annoying trait you seem to possess.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
So women can't be homosexuals and people can't have homophobic beliefs about lesbians?Quote:
Originally Posted by mowglycdb
Lol. I like how you back up everything you say /sarcasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
I disproved your idea and postulated my theory. That was all I wanted to do.
You didn't disprove anything. You just said it was ignorance. Well, how do you know that?Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Concerning my comments: Homosexuality is involves, in some capacity, sexual acts that involve two from the same sex. People find these actions "disgusting" whether its sodomy, fellatio, or cunnilingus. By saying that these actions are "disgusting" they are making an aesthetic judgment, a judgment concerning beauty, upon the act of homosexuality.
To have a belated piggyback, some studies says raging homophobes be denying their desire for penis. Also, Ted Haggard.Quote:
Originally Posted by mowglycdb
Sorry, off-topic, I agree with the ego suggestion of saltyseedog as well and I feel dumb for not thinking of that in my first post.
SEXY EDIT:
I personally think that women of African descent are not attractive (can't wait for a s:shock:tstorm of idiocy with regards to this opinion. For clarification it's the general features of Africans that I simply don't think are attractive. It's like saying I don't think blondes are cute or that someone's chin is too defined for my liking. If you can't understand this without a kneejerk "RAAAAACISTTTTT!!!!111" reaction, you're a f:shock:king idiot). Just my opinion. Does this make me a racist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
I don't feel good in my pants when I see spunky gay man sex. Does this make me a homophobe?
Your argument is weak. Homophobia is deeply rooted as a psychological defense mechanism or as the result of cultural prejudices.
Not all disgusting things have to do with aesthetics. Disgusting can also carry other connotations, such as moral, ethical, etc., as well. For example, Sarah Palin is disgusting because she is a Tea Party Republican (WOAAAAHHHH now everyone knows how I feel about them!). Mrs. Palin may be quite cute (I don't think so personally, but pretend that she's as lovely as Tina Fey makes her out to be), but she's still disgusting because she is a Tea Party Republican.
The moral disgust sort of thing is what most religious homophobes cite as their reason why being gay is bad.
BOW BOW! Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
I already showed you were wrong.
And your first sentence just proved you do not read posts. Just blabber whatever you believe without even thinking about other people's views.
If you do not find something pleasing aesthetically, you don't have anything to do with it. You don't have to sit there and watch two people of the same sex engage in sexual acts.
BTW phobia means "fear of". Not "disgust of".
I wish Phil were still here to see that clever use of language to win an argument.
If you are being serious then no it doesn't make you a racist. You just have a set of certain aesthetics.Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
Again, if you are being serious, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
What is it defending us from? How did it develop as a cultural prejudice? What caused it?Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
No it's just people improperly utilizing the definition of morality that call it disgusting. Morality is about what is good and bad. Connotating good with beautiful is a false leap. What is beautiful and what is disgusting rests solely in the world of aestheticsQuote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
Well you're doing what you seem to be implying religious homophobes do which is equating the good, i.e. your theories of politics, with the beautiful, i.e. your anti-Tea-Party sentiments. You are confusing the two schools of philosophy probably because you have no background in them.Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
Ok just saying "I proved it" doesn't mean you actually proved it. You keep saying it's ignorance yet give no examples of why this is true. Stop being an ignoramus.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Having a fear, fear being defined as a negative emotion cause by a perceived threat, does not exclude aesthetic inclinations. Being fearful of homosexuals can include aesthetic ideals for people wish to see beauty over ugliness. If homosexual acts are "disgusting" in their beliefs of what is beauty, then obviously they perceive homosexuals, who oddly enough commit homosexual acts, as a perceived threat to the beauty of their world thereby causing the negative emotion labeled "fear."
Again, I can see you honestly believe that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
I really, really do not know how you can convince yourself that your reasoning is logical.
I don't like the look of mulloscs, which makes me fear them. Cool bro.
Even though I did prove my point....
Just think of how the first person would feel when they met someone with a different skin colour. Scared.
Because they would be different to them.
Likewise one would be scared of fire until one understands it. It is true of almost everything, if not everything.
I didn't think that needed much explaining.
If it's a psychological defense mechanism, it is, as I stated, protecting someone from knowing that he wants to engage in spunky man sex. The cultural prejudices come from nasty things like not understanding people who are different or from prejudiced works like the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
But the word disgusting does not just relate to beauty. At most, it's other people misusing a word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
You guys are all proving other people wrong and making yourselves look good.
:clap:
Because speaking illogically is an impossibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Aesthetic values that are negative don't automatically lead to fear.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
And where is that gem?Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Why scared? They could be intrigued.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
So you think that homophobic people don't know what homosexuals do?Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
So you think that homophobic people are really just homosexuals in denial?Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
But why would they follow the bible? Why don't they make an effort to "understand people who are different?" The point of these questions is to get at the root of the issue which I think is based upon aesthetic reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
Yes disgusting can actually mean physically sickening. It is possible for people to be physically sick concerning homosexuality, i.e. having their "stomach turn." If you would like to use a better word that pertains to aesthetic values then I won't mind using that one. Maybe grotesque?Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
Not all, just some, hence my use of the conjunction "or" or the qualifier, "if."Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
They may follow the Bible because they think it's the word of the perfect creator of the universe. They may have been indoctrinated at a young age. They may have been taught, unconsciously and subtly, that asking questions like, "Is homosexuality really bad?" or "Why do I believe this?" is a sin because, after all, who are any of us to question God himself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
It's not just the Bible, many cultures follow the whole masochistic "pleasure is bad" philosophy and the strange superstition that sex is magical. Since gay sex does not allow for procreation, and because it is a minority activity, it must be immoral because it's a misuse of one's special places. And because not many people are doing it (comparatively). People fear the unknown.
My argument is that people calling gay sex "disgusting" is not simply an aesthetic argument. Sure, you can use the word "grotesque," but it won't change my argument. I'll still posit that no matter what word you use, at the root of it all, it's not whether homosexuality is found to be attractive or not, it's about deeper problems and prejudices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
"A Man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
— Benjamin Franklin
forgot to point out this is in mens case, though your question is silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
This a very interesting discussion. As for the answer to the authors questions: I think people do this in order to prove themselves that they are "right" which somehow proves that they are worth it to themselves. Hoenestly its a pathetic attempt at trying to make themselves happy. In my experience, the best way to get someone to change their view on something is to make them THINK. How do you do this? There are many ways but one one the best ways is to ask a REALLY good question that makes them think.
The hardest people to deal with to me are
1. ones who think they can argue anything no matter how conviluted to be "right"
2. People who make an argument and assume that they have proved you wrong when all they have done is throw words around that dont even address the topic or question you made in the first place.
3. People who never answer your questions or always change topic because they know that if they answer it they will "lose face"
If a person you are arguing with exhibits all three of these then I suggest not wasting your time, you wont get anywhere. Discussion of those is a very good thing, there are multiple people in the univere for a reason afterall. I think that in this time however, It almost seems as if people are being encouraged NOT to think, or even worse- think a certain way. Keep thinking my friends, you will be all the better by doing so.
-Evan
Another interesting question is Why do we get worked up when people try to proove us wrong.
It's something that happens to me and if I'm not centered I feel insulted, specially when it's in an agressive way with shallow reasons, when they don't care if you don't understand what they're speaking about, something more direct would be like "You're wrong, just because, U MAD?" Some of these people know and they slip off irational things so they make you think that they're ignorant and that you have to help them so they can open their minds (it's a trap) they want people with good intentions to get worked up because of their morality ( or maybe they don't and I'm paranoic ), having the need to help people is ego fueled though.
When stuff like this happens I just think I don't know if they're being honest about their intentions, and if they are... well they can believe anything they want, I don't have to get worked up with this stuff where I end up loosing my time.
A lot of people take shit too personally. You've got to realize that everything that spews out of another person's mouth is simply their own expression. This also holds true for your perspective on any given matter. This is why it's ridiculous to defend a position and get all defensive about it rather than simply find the one that makes the most sense. As I've said before, I've realized this for quite some time and don't tie myself to any given perspective.
To answer the OP... in a very simple manner: The ego. The ego is the source of it. By being "right", we look smart. We win an argument, and we feel good because we are "better". Rather than supporting others first, we are inclined to support our ego first.
It comes down to the ego and how the ego influences what we say and do.
I don't know if anyone has said this because I didn't take time to read all the posts but....
All humans have a little bit of narcissism in themselves, and some even have NPD (Narcissistic personality disorder). Which is an over exaggerated sense of self worth, intelligence, beauty, or any other trait people tend to find appealing. So I agree with everyone says it's in human nature because it is ;) it's how we are successful as a species.
I honestly don't see how narcissism is a bad thing.
Yes, you probably don't because you don't know what it actually is. A little bit is necessary for people to be successful in life, it helps them overcome people and different mental obstacles. Thinking you are better than everyone else and driving everyone else away is a bad thing, this is documented as NPD and is quite a bad mental disorder to have. People often say Hitler had NPD, you already know he took it to the extreme and said his whole race was better than everyone else's and look where that ended up. And you are right in saying that narcissism itself isn't a bad thing, but as you'll see A LOT online people take it to an extreme just because they can and they think they are right.
Wiki: The term "narcissism" was introduced by Havelock Ellis (later developed further by Freud in On Narcissism) after Narcissus who in Greek myth was a pathologically self-absorbed young man who fell in love with his own reflection in a pool.
The myth says Narcissus the Greek boy fell in love with his reflection in a pool of water, he stared at it in awe, at his own beauty for so long he fell so feeble and weak from no food he eventually fell in a drowned. Even the Greeks knew it was a bad thing if you had too much of it. Yes, I know it's a myth but it's a greatttt example. Hopefully you'll come up with more than a 1 liner argument next time ;)
My post wasn't so much an argument as it was a statement...
However, I see where you're coming from. Anything taken to the absolute extreme can turn into a bad thing. But speaking from personal experience, thinking you're better than everyone else is a great thing. I haven't personally seen this have an effect of driving people away. Rather, it seems to give you a huge boost in confidence, and people actually seem to react as if you're actually better than them. (I mean, they don't take offense to it, they just take it as a given.) So that has some perks, also.
Now, I wouldn't say that narcissism is the absolute cause of people on the internet getting defensive of their arguments. I think the main problem is that people feel as though their opinions are somehow a 'part of them'. So if somebody attacks their opinion, they see it as a personal attack. Those people, in my opinion, aren't as mature as they could be. There are also some people who just think they're plain right, and this could stem from narcissism, but it doesn't necessarily have to. It just means they're convinced they're right.
Fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reclypso
Because other people are idiots, and therefor should accept my assertions as truth. Obviously.
^ Exactly, lol
I feel like being a jerk comes with being online, it's the only place some of us are comfortable doing it :P I'm comfy doing it in real life also in my case though
I notice this as well. People do feel that an "attack" on their ideas is an attack on them. Take religion for example, their idea is pretty much who they are and determines how they live their life, so it is understandable that they would get defensive in that circumstance. I am pretty elusive when it comes to ideas, like you I don't necessarily strongly attach myself to any idea(nevermind I am vehemently attached to veganism) but really just try to entertain them so if some one contradicts me, it gives me a fresh perspective on the idea in question which I find to be very useful(one reason I post on DV). I don't remember who said it but someone talked about how being wrong on DV has helped them tremendously in being able to understand an idea better. I would say I subscribe to this view, I'm wrong quite a bit but DV has definitely polished my intellect and for that I thank everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by MindGames
In my opinion, people in general like to prove themselvs right and others wrong becuase it gives us the feelings of advantage. Figuratively it is often easier to chop off peoples shins and attatch thire feet thire knees to make others shorter than it is to grow taller.
Well you said that the reason people are homophobic are because of this defense mechanism which you additionally states proves that they are just homosexuals in denial or from cultural prejudice apparently from the bible which has only been around for several centuries.Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
That's not an explanation as to why they follow it. Not all religions think that the bible is a word for word commentary from God. Even if children were "indoctrinated" to believe that homosexuality is a sin do you think they are in a state of perpetual childhood without any ability to grow, discover or question? And if humans are capable of this yet they still believe that homosexuality is sin then why do they continue to believe it? Concerning your comment on cultural prejudices, no culture is completely homophobic or completely tolerant of homosexuality. So I don't see how you can think there is this monolithic cultural trend against homosexuality ingrained on the minds of a majority. I don't think your comment about people fearing the unknown is a valid argument either because it is not as if homosexuality is unknown to a homophobic person.Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
The problem I'm having with you is that you take my examples as suggestions of a singular factor for something, and this is not what I'm doing. I said,Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
I didn't say it's either denial or the Bible that are the only only only only reasons why anybody anywhere is homophobic. It is a mishmash of the following that can (can, not must) include:Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
1. Indoctrination by a prejudiced work, with a single example (out of many others) being the Bible.
2. A lack of understanding of others due to a culture of intolerance/innate fear of others. This means that some people don't like other people because differences scare them and a homogenized group where everyone is the same is psychologically safe.
3. It is a form of denial and projection, as someone hates gays because he or she may unconsciously be gay, but does not consider this to be acceptable for one reason or another.
Again, these are not the only factors, not all must be present, and multiple can be present in different people. I'm sorry it's not a formulaic rule, but please, try to understand, this is a fluid issue that can not be addressed with a rigid set of factors X, Y, and Z needing to always be present exactly as I state them.
If you can't understand that last paragraph, I promise that I will abandon all hope and cease talking to you on this thread because obviously it means you're as dense as a black hole.
Hence the word, "May."Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
Actually, yes. It's called dogma. It's called fearing to question one's belief for fear of hellfire (in this example which relates to Christianity). People don't just sit down and question what they believe about the nature of human existence, the meaning of life, and the universe itself just willy-nilly. Why would they if they believe something strongly enough? And why would they if they believe that examining these concepts with a critical eye will lead to eternal damnation? Some just do not want to take this risk, however nonexistent it may be to the outside observer. Take it from an ex-Christian, it took a lot of persuading and suggesting to get me to even consider re-examining my faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
Again, because if you are taught from birth that clouds are made of ghosts and if you doubt for even a second that clouds are made of ghosts, the ghosts will tie you to a bed and beat you with reeds for eternity, you won't even dare to doubt whether clouds are ghosts. Some people are taught to never think critically and objectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
Correct, but no intelligent person would say that every person in a culture believes all of the exact same things. It's more of a generalization. For the most part, people think X or Y.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
Here it appears you mix the words "majority" and "everyone." Most very strong Christians think that at least homosexuality is a sin when practiced. Not all, most. Many people in the USA are homophobic because the culture in the States generally makes homosexuals and homosexuality the butt of a joke or an insult (an example being, "That's so gay.") Not all, but many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
I'm not talking about an ignorance to whether homosexuality exists, I mean an ignorance to how a homosexual person feels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
I'm a straight male. I do not know how it feels to be romantically attracted to a man. I know some men feel these feelings, but I do not know what they feel like. Thus, it is harder for me to empathize with these feelings compared to if I had to empathize with the feelings of a straight man. Granted, this alone does not make one a homophobe, but when this lack of empathy is combined with a culture that can breed contempt for gays, you can get a solution of homophobia.
Ratings.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
Yet I'm sure any straight man knows how it feels to be romantically/sexually attracted to a woman. If one asks a gay person, I'm sure the descriptions of their feelings are exactly the same as a straight person, but just for their own gender. Imagine being told that it's "wrong" to love a woman or have sexual feelings for a woman, even though the chemistry of your brain tells you that you do have sexual feelings for a woman. Since sexual attraction is based on brain function, I don't see how it would be that much different to be gay than to be straight other than what "floats your boat."Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
Although you are correct that a lack of empathy is a big cause of homophobia (which is a really poor root choice, meaning fear of being alike). It's possible to empathize, if you can put yourself in a gay person's shoes by imagining being told that heterosexuality were "wrong" somehow. It's not as if a gay person has the "choice" of altering their brain to make them heterosexual, so we might as well accept them as human beings. (And... if we have someone we can say is "wrong" (homosexuals) the rest of us are more "right", the root of this thread!)
But are you sure this is how it is? Not to prove anyone wrong and make myself look good ( :P ) but just recently another guy approached me and made it clear he wanted me to go to his home and have gaysex with him. I noticed he acted like a nervous wreck and he looked as if he didnt take care of his appearance very well. The kind of guy not many women imagine to be their dream prince. He made it clear to me that he wasnt into gay because he thinks men are super sexy. He's into gay because its easier than having to do deal with the opposite sex wich would produce a whole set of difficulties . Hardly anything to do with brain wiring.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePreserver
Well, I know a couple gay people very well who have told me that they were born that way (Hahah, like Lady Gaga says yes?) and it's not a choice. The man who you encountered wasn't really "gay", he was just "screwing around" in a literal sense. He's either lying about being "straight but doesn't want to deal with women" or is just really really really awful with the ladyfolk. That's not what most gay people would tell you. They'd tell you it's absolutely not a choice. Homosexuality is defined as the attraction to the same gender sexually. If he wasn't attracted to men sexually, he wasn't homosexual, as simple as that :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Dthoughts
I re-read this, and then the title of the thread itself, and laughed out loud. I feel kinda bad, trying to "prove myself right", but I think it's important to help spread ideas. If we didn't try to be "better" than eachother, and we never shared ideas through debate and discussion, we couldn't develop understanding could we?
Still a difference between proving urself right than trying to prove others wrong just for the sake of feeling better. There's always a reason why someone believes something is true and you should respect that wether that person is right or wrong.
On to the gay thing. I guess there's 2 forms of homosexuality. One is the gayness that is expressed in prisons, if u know what i mean. And the other one is just sexual preference. If there are girls out there that think like me i totally understand lesbians. :P
so he's not actually attracted to people of the opposite sex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dthoughts
are we going to classify that as homosexuality?
rape?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dthoughts
is rape honestly considered a part of homosexuality?
He is attracted to the opposite sex but he can't find a girl that is willing to fuck with him so he tries it with boys since he doesn't have so much trouble engaging a conversation with another guy, probably because the pressure is not as huge and probably because there are tons of guys out there that are looking for a hole to stick their penis in to satisfy their craving for sex.Quote:
Originally Posted by no-Name
Sex in prisons doesn't restrict to rape. I meant to say that when one is in prison and has no way of hitting his girl at home a man might become desperate for sex and decide to stick his penis in his cellmate so he can finally feel something other than his right hand. The man who rapes in prisons might not actually have a sexual preference of boys but because it is his only option available he chooses to engage in gay sex.Quote:
Originally Posted by no-Name
Now I get to make light of my qualify like you did with your "if and or" comment. I stated apparently because all you have talked about IS the bible. Please go on though and tell me of these other prejudice works that have developed homophobic behavior through the history of man. Or where are these monolithic homogenized cultures of intolerance? Also if it is not asking too much I would like to hear how people can "unconsciously" be homosexual. As if people can be gay without them knowing they actually are gay.Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
I understand what you are trying to do but you don't see the basic level that I am trying to get out of you. One of your claims is that prejudice works or cultures create homophobic behavior. You seem to think that they are a given and start from there. This to me is an inadequate starting point. Why are these works created and why do people attach themselves to it? What is at the base of this? That is what I am trying to get your answer about but you are just on the periphery with you sentiments like how religion causes it or something similar to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
How do you know that people don't question the nature of human existence. That is probably one of the reasons people do get into religion because they think it retains answers about why they are here, what they are suppose to do, how to do it and what comes from doing it. Admittedly humans do think they have the answer until they are confronted with something that contradicts or lessens the value of their answer but with all the "non-Christian" happens of the world evolving in the eyes of Christians, how can they not be led to question?Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
I think that would deny people a conscious which sociopaths don't have but being a sociopath doesn't follow to you being a homophobe or vice-versa.Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
Then is it really a culture? Or just an abstract to better compartmentize terms? Does a culture even believe one thing unanimously?Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
So you think homophobic behavior stems from saying things like "that's gay?" What if homosexual people where to use this phrase?Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
Yes, but homosexuals aren't imbued with some remarkable emotion that heterosexuals don't have. They are human, you are human so it seems practical to say that what a homosexual thinks and feels of love is probably the same as you think and feel love. Of course you can trying to turn it into metaphors by saying love is like 100 chocolates or whatever but both you and a homosexual would elicit the same "love" response.Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
Anyways, I think this topic has run its course. I will give you the last word since you've been a good sport.
late response is late, but exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by sloth
I just lurked this thread for a while, watching it blow up and becoming a cycle of defying what the thread is about
The Bible and Torah (Leviticus 18:22), The Qu'ran (Sura 26:165-7) (also, note that these 3 faiths comprise about 50% of the Earth), some Buddhists, though not all (3rd of the 5 Precepts), and the Vendidad (a religious book of the now largely defunct Zoroastrian religion of ancient Iran).Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
I already said, nothing is completely homogenized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
It's called the unconscious mind, about the only worthwhile contribution of Sigmund Freud. It's called denial. It's called Ted Haggard, Mark Foley, Larry Craig, Eddie Long, George Rekers, and of course, my personal favorite, Roy Ashburn (if you read no other stories, read his, or watch this video).Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
People can get started on it because their parents taught them to believe in religion X, and the parent's parents taught them the same thing, and so on. I don't know the first cause, but most people who are religious are the same religion as their parents because they re taught to believe that stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
Because some people obviously don't question their own beliefs because they are specifically taught not to. A question can be raised, but it is immediately discarded as someone fears hellfire or a similar punishment from a jealous deity. Some people go into religion because they have questions that can't be answered otherwise, but some go into religion because they are taught to believe in faith X and to never question it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
Sorry, my metaphor was a bit vague and stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
We can debate semantics (well, I won't participate, so I guess we can't ;)), but I define "culture" as a set of beliefs held generally held by people in or from a similar geographical region or ancestry. So a culture is not unanimous, but it contains common thoughts and whatnot (at least, that is the definition that I learned).Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
I think it does not necessarily stem from this type of language, but using words for homosexuality as derogatory terms can reinforce the notion of homophobia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
I understand that, but it's the, "Wait, you are in love with a guy?!??!!??!//111one" sort of thing. I'm unable to see any innate beauty in the male form that is greater than that of the female form, and this is what I mean by saying straight men not completely understanding homosexual men, no matter how open minded they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
I concur, and thanks. You's a good fellow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
Also, other people, use this discussion as an example for further elaboration on the original topic please? Pretend our chat was a clever way to provide an example of the activities that we should be talking about. Please? Ok, fine, I apologize for being off-topic.
This is the reason why I DO have empathy for homosexuals. The fact that I can't imagine feeling those kinds of feelings for another man, and they can, tells me that most likely they are NATURALLY gay, rather than having chosen to be gay. I ask myself, how could someone CHOOSE to feel attracted to someone, or to love someone? I personally don't have that ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by kookyinc
To test out if you think you do, I want you to decide that you are madly in love with me, and that you want to marry me. This is just for testing purposes, so after about five minutes you don't have to be in love with me anymore.
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
How are they defying it?
They aren't. They're simply doing what the thread is about.
If we were defying it, we'd all be agreeing with each other.
Maybe you could take this opportunity to look for correlations between the arguments here.
Like "why the people started arguing" and "when did they start resorting to getting angry?" etc.
The thread is about not arguing, and just accepting it, and everyone begins arguing is all i meantQuote:
Originally Posted by tommo
NO IT'S NOT! You're WRONG! I'm RIGHT!
I look good now.
Damn sloth... lookin' good.
lol Thanks, man!
When two people are interacting, the one who proves his point of view and proves the other person wrong gets a psychological boost from it. The whole point is to get the person to see the world through his eyes. If he successfully does this, it leaves him( the "winner" of the interaction ) feeling victorious, sometimes even euphoric. It's purely ego and the basis behind all human conflict.Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow
Hopefully in this situation the "loser" will actually learn something, which makes them a winner! I think your ego is deceiving you into believing there is such thing as a "winner" and a "loser" in a discourse, when actually this is an illusion of duality which causes suffering. Dr. Stormcrow suggests you balance your chakaras and mediate with ancient Chinese healing crystals so that you may see the light. Namaste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic
thisQuote:
In my opinion, people in general like to prove themselvs right and others wrong becuase it gives us the feelings of advantage.
My my, that sure is a gem of wisdom you just dropped on me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic
But I can understand why you believe this, because you always need to be right and just want to prove me wrong! Stop bullying me! (hides in corner)
http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/...aceDancing.gif