Thread: why are we so obsessed with proving other people wrong and making ourselves look good?

Originally Posted by kookyinc

I personally think that women of African descent are not attractive (can't wait for a ststorm of idiocy with regards to this opinion. For clarification it's the general features of Africans that I simply don't think are attractive. It's like saying I don't think blondes are cute or that someone's chin is too defined for my liking. If you can't understand this without a kneejerk "RAAAAACISTTTTT!!!!111" reaction, you're a fking idiot). Just my opinion. Does this make me a racist?

If you are being serious then no it doesn't make you a racist. You just have a set of certain aesthetics.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

I don't feel good in my pants when I see spunky gay man sex. Does this make me a homophobe?

Again, if you are being serious, no.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Your argument is weak. Homophobia is deeply rooted as a psychological defense mechanism or as the result of cultural prejudices.

What is it defending us from? How did it develop as a cultural prejudice? What caused it?

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Not all disgusting things have to do with aesthetics. Disgusting can also carry other connotations, such as moral, ethical, etc., as well.

No it's just people improperly utilizing the definition of morality that call it disgusting. Morality is about what is good and bad. Connotating good with beautiful is a false leap. What is beautiful and what is disgusting rests solely in the world of aesthetics

Originally Posted by kookyinc

For example, Sarah Palin is disgusting because she is a Tea Party Republican (WOAAAAHHHH now everyone knows how I feel about them!). Mrs. Palin may be quite cute (I don't think so personally, but pretend that she's as lovely as Tina Fey makes her out to be), but she's still disgusting because she is a Tea Party Republican.
The moral disgust sort of thing is what most religious homophobes cite as their reason why being gay is bad.

Well you're doing what you seem to be implying religious homophobes do which is equating the good, i.e. your theories of politics, with the beautiful, i.e. your anti-Tea-Party sentiments. You are confusing the two schools of philosophy probably because you have no background in them.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

What is it defending us from? How did it develop as a cultural prejudice? What caused it?

If it's a psychological defense mechanism, it is, as I stated, protecting someone from knowing that he wants to engage in spunky man sex. The cultural prejudices come from nasty things like not understanding people who are different or from prejudiced works like the Bible.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

No it's just people improperly utilizing the definition of morality that call it disgusting. Morality is about what is good and bad. Connotating good with beautiful is a false leap. What is beautiful and what is disgusting rests solely in the world of aesthetics

But the word disgusting does not just relate to beauty. At most, it's other people misusing a word.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

If it's a psychological defense mechanism, it is, as I stated, protecting someone from knowing that he wants to engage in spunky man sex.

So you think that homophobic people are really just homosexuals in denial?

Originally Posted by kookyinc

The cultural prejudices come from nasty things like not understanding people who are different or from prejudiced works like the Bible.

But why would they follow the bible? Why don't they make an effort to "understand people who are different?" The point of these questions is to get at the root of the issue which I think is based upon aesthetic reasons.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

But the word disgusting does not just relate to beauty. At most, it's other people misusing a word.

Yes disgusting can actually mean physically sickening. It is possible for people to be physically sick concerning homosexuality, i.e. having their "stomach turn." If you would like to use a better word that pertains to aesthetic values then I won't mind using that one. Maybe grotesque?

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

So you think that homophobic people are really just homosexuals in denial?

Not all, just some, hence my use of the conjunction "or" or the qualifier, "if."

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

But why would they follow the bible? Why don't they make an effort to "understand people who are different?" The point of these questions is to get at the root of the issue which I think is based upon aesthetic reasons.

They may follow the Bible because they think it's the word of the perfect creator of the universe. They may have been indoctrinated at a young age. They may have been taught, unconsciously and subtly, that asking questions like, "Is homosexuality really bad?" or "Why do I believe this?" is a sin because, after all, who are any of us to question God himself?

It's not just the Bible, many cultures follow the whole masochistic "pleasure is bad" philosophy and the strange superstition that sex is magical. Since gay sex does not allow for procreation, and because it is a minority activity, it must be immoral because it's a misuse of one's special places. And because not many people are doing it (comparatively). People fear the unknown.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Yes disgusting can actually mean physically sickening. It is possible for people to be physically sick concerning homosexuality, i.e. having their "stomach turn." If you would like to use a better word that pertains to aesthetic values then I won't mind using that one. Maybe grotesque?

My argument is that people calling gay sex "disgusting" is not simply an aesthetic argument. Sure, you can use the word "grotesque," but it won't change my argument. I'll still posit that no matter what word you use, at the root of it all, it's not whether homosexuality is found to be attractive or not, it's about deeper problems and prejudices.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Not all, just some, hence my use of the conjunction "or" or the qualifier, "if."

Well you said that the reason people are homophobic are because of this defense mechanism which you additionally states proves that they are just homosexuals in denial or from cultural prejudice apparently from the bible which has only been around for several centuries.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

They may follow the Bible because they think it's the word of the perfect creator of the universe. They may have been indoctrinated at a young age. They may have been taught, unconsciously and subtly, that asking questions like, "Is homosexuality really bad?" or "Why do I believe this?" is a sin because, after all, who are any of us to question God himself?
It's not just the Bible, many cultures follow the whole masochistic "pleasure is bad" philosophy and the strange superstition that sex is magical. Since gay sex does not allow for procreation, and because it is a minority activity, it must be immoral because it's a misuse of one's special places. And because not many people are doing it (comparatively). People fear the unknown.

That's not an explanation as to why they follow it. Not all religions think that the bible is a word for word commentary from God. Even if children were "indoctrinated" to believe that homosexuality is a sin do you think they are in a state of perpetual childhood without any ability to grow, discover or question? And if humans are capable of this yet they still believe that homosexuality is sin then why do they continue to believe it? Concerning your comment on cultural prejudices, no culture is completely homophobic or completely tolerant of homosexuality. So I don't see how you can think there is this monolithic cultural trend against homosexuality ingrained on the minds of a majority. I don't think your comment about people fearing the unknown is a valid argument either because it is not as if homosexuality is unknown to a homophobic person.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Well you said that the reason people are homophobic are because of this defense mechanism which you additionally states proves that they are just homosexuals in denial or from cultural prejudice apparently from the bible which has only been around for several centuries.

The problem I'm having with you is that you take my examples as suggestions of a singular factor for something, and this is not what I'm doing. I said,

Originally Posted by kookyinc

The cultural prejudices come from nasty things like not understanding people who are different or from prejudiced works like the Bible.

I didn't say it's either denial or the Bible that are the only only only only reasons why anybody anywhere is homophobic. It is a mishmash of the following that can (can, not must) include:

1. Indoctrination by a prejudiced work, with a single example (out of many others) being the Bible.
2. A lack of understanding of others due to a culture of intolerance/innate fear of others. This means that some people don't like other people because differences scare them and a homogenized group where everyone is the same is psychologically safe.
3. It is a form of denial and projection, as someone hates gays because he or she may unconsciously be gay, but does not consider this to be acceptable for one reason or another.

Again, these are not the only factors, not all must be present, and multiple can be present in different people. I'm sorry it's not a formulaic rule, but please, try to understand, this is a fluid issue that can not be addressed with a rigid set of factors X, Y, and Z needing to always be present exactly as I state them.

If you can't understand that last paragraph, I promise that I will abandon all hope and cease talking to you on this thread because obviously it means you're as dense as a black hole.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

That's not an explanation as to why they follow it. Not all religions think that the bible is a word for word commentary from God.

Hence the word, "May."

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Even if children were "indoctrinated" to believe that homosexuality is a sin do you think they are in a state of perpetual childhood without any ability to grow, discover or question?

Actually, yes. It's called dogma. It's called fearing to question one's belief for fear of hellfire (in this example which relates to Christianity). People don't just sit down and question what they believe about the nature of human existence, the meaning of life, and the universe itself just willy-nilly. Why would they if they believe something strongly enough? And why would they if they believe that examining these concepts with a critical eye will lead to eternal damnation? Some just do not want to take this risk, however nonexistent it may be to the outside observer. Take it from an ex-Christian, it took a lot of persuading and suggesting to get me to even consider re-examining my faith.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

And if humans are capable of this yet they still believe that homosexuality is sin then why do they continue to believe it?

Again, because if you are taught from birth that clouds are made of ghosts and if you doubt for even a second that clouds are made of ghosts, the ghosts will tie you to a bed and beat you with reeds for eternity, you won't even dare to doubt whether clouds are ghosts. Some people are taught to never think critically and objectively.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Concerning your comment on cultural prejudices, no culture is completely homophobic or completely tolerant of homosexuality.

Correct, but no intelligent person would say that every person in a culture believes all of the exact same things. It's more of a generalization. For the most part, people think X or Y.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

So I don't see how you can think there is this monolithic cultural trend against homosexuality ingrained on the minds of a majority.

Here it appears you mix the words "majority" and "everyone." Most very strong Christians think that at least homosexuality is a sin when practiced. Not all, most. Many people in the USA are homophobic because the culture in the States generally makes homosexuals and homosexuality the butt of a joke or an insult (an example being, "That's so gay.") Not all, but many.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

I don't think your comment about people fearing the unknown is a valid argument either because it is not as if homosexuality is unknown to a homophobic person.

I'm not talking about an ignorance to whether homosexuality exists, I mean an ignorance to how a homosexual person feels.
I'm a straight male. I do not know how it feels to be romantically attracted to a man. I know some men feel these feelings, but I do not know what they feel like. Thus, it is harder for me to empathize with these feelings compared to if I had to empathize with the feelings of a straight man. Granted, this alone does not make one a homophobe, but when this lack of empathy is combined with a culture that can breed contempt for gays, you can get a solution of homophobia.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

I'm not talking about an ignorance to whether homosexuality exists, I mean an ignorance to how a homosexual person feels.
I'm a straight male. I do not know how it feels to be romantically attracted to a man. I know some men feel these feelings, but I do not know what they feel like. Thus, it is harder for me to empathize with these feelings compared to if I had to empathize with the feelings of a straight man. Granted, this alone does not make one a homophobe, but when this lack of empathy is combined with a culture that can breed contempt for gays, you can get a solution of homophobia.

Yet I'm sure any straight man knows how it feels to be romantically/sexually attracted to a woman. If one asks a gay person, I'm sure the descriptions of their feelings are exactly the same as a straight person, but just for their own gender. Imagine being told that it's "wrong" to love a woman or have sexual feelings for a woman, even though the chemistry of your brain tells you that you do have sexual feelings for a woman. Since sexual attraction is based on brain function, I don't see how it would be that much different to be gay than to be straight other than what "floats your boat."

Although you are correct that a lack of empathy is a big cause of homophobia (which is a really poor root choice, meaning fear of being alike). It's possible to empathize, if you can put yourself in a gay person's shoes by imagining being told that heterosexuality were "wrong" somehow. It's not as if a gay person has the "choice" of altering their brain to make them heterosexual, so we might as well accept them as human beings. (And... if we have someone we can say is "wrong" (homosexuals) the rest of us are more "right", the root of this thread!)

Originally Posted by kookyinc

The problem I'm having with you is that you take my examples as suggestions of a singular factor for something, and this is not what I'm doing. I said,

Now I get to make light of my qualify like you did with your "if and or" comment. I stated apparently because all you have talked about IS the bible. Please go on though and tell me of these other prejudice works that have developed homophobic behavior through the history of man. Or where are these monolithic homogenized cultures of intolerance? Also if it is not asking too much I would like to hear how people can "unconsciously" be homosexual. As if people can be gay without them knowing they actually are gay.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Again, these are not the only factors, not all must be present, and multiple can be present in different people. I'm sorry it's not a formulaic rule, but please, try to understand, this is a fluid issue that can not be addressed with a rigid set of factors X, Y, and Z needing to always be present exactly as I state them.
If you can't understand that last paragraph, I promise that I will abandon all hope and cease talking to you on this thread because obviously it means you're as dense as a black hole.

I understand what you are trying to do but you don't see the basic level that I am trying to get out of you. One of your claims is that prejudice works or cultures create homophobic behavior. You seem to think that they are a given and start from there. This to me is an inadequate starting point. Why are these works created and why do people attach themselves to it? What is at the base of this? That is what I am trying to get your answer about but you are just on the periphery with you sentiments like how religion causes it or something similar to that.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Actually, yes. It's called dogma. It's called fearing to question one's belief for fear of hellfire (in this example which relates to Christianity). People don't just sit down and question what they believe about the nature of human existence, the meaning of life, and the universe itself just willy-nilly. Why would they if they believe something strongly enough? And why would they if they believe that examining these concepts with a critical eye will lead to eternal damnation? Some just do not want to take this risk, however nonexistent it may be to the outside observer. Take it from an ex-Christian, it took a lot of persuading and suggesting to get me to even consider re-examining my faith.

How do you know that people don't question the nature of human existence. That is probably one of the reasons people do get into religion because they think it retains answers about why they are here, what they are suppose to do, how to do it and what comes from doing it. Admittedly humans do think they have the answer until they are confronted with something that contradicts or lessens the value of their answer but with all the "non-Christian" happens of the world evolving in the eyes of Christians, how can they not be led to question?

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Again, because if you are taught from birth that clouds are made of ghosts and if you doubt for even a second that clouds are made of ghosts, the ghosts will tie you to a bed and beat you with reeds for eternity, you won't even dare to doubt whether clouds are ghosts. Some people are taught to never think critically and objectively.

I think that would deny people a conscious which sociopaths don't have but being a sociopath doesn't follow to you being a homophobe or vice-versa.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Correct, but no intelligent person would say that every person in a culture believes all of the exact same things. It's more of a generalization. For the most part, people think X or Y.

Then is it really a culture? Or just an abstract to better compartmentize terms? Does a culture even believe one thing unanimously?

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Here it appears you mix the words "majority" and "everyone." Most very strong Christians think that at least homosexuality is a sin when practiced. Not all, most. Many people in the USA are homophobic because the culture in the States generally makes homosexuals and homosexuality the butt of a joke or an insult (an example being, "That's so gay.") Not all, but many.

So you think homophobic behavior stems from saying things like "that's gay?" What if homosexual people where to use this phrase?

Originally Posted by kookyinc

I'm not talking about an ignorance to whether homosexuality exists, I mean an ignorance to how a homosexual person feels.
I'm a straight male. I do not know how it feels to be romantically attracted to a man. I know some men feel these feelings, but I do not know what they feel like. Thus, it is harder for me to empathize with these feelings compared to if I had to empathize with the feelings of a straight man. Granted, this alone does not make one a homophobe, but when this lack of empathy is combined with a culture that can breed contempt for gays, you can get a solution of homophobia.

Yes, but homosexuals aren't imbued with some remarkable emotion that heterosexuals don't have. They are human, you are human so it seems practical to say that what a homosexual thinks and feels of love is probably the same as you think and feel love. Of course you can trying to turn it into metaphors by saying love is like 100 chocolates or whatever but both you and a homosexual would elicit the same "love" response.

Anyways, I think this topic has run its course. I will give you the last word since you've been a good sport.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

I'm not talking about an ignorance to whether homosexuality exists, I mean an ignorance to how a homosexual person feels.
I'm a straight male. I do not know how it feels to be romantically attracted to a man. I know some men feel these feelings, but I do not know what they feel like. Thus, it is harder for me to empathize with these feelings compared to if I had to empathize with the feelings of a straight man. Granted, this alone does not make one a homophobe, but when this lack of empathy is combined with a culture that can breed contempt for gays, you can get a solution of homophobia.

This is the reason why I DO have empathy for homosexuals. The fact that I can't imagine feeling those kinds of feelings for another man, and they can, tells me that most likely they are NATURALLY gay, rather than having chosen to be gay. I ask myself, how could someone CHOOSE to feel attracted to someone, or to love someone? I personally don't have that ability.
To test out if you think you do, I want you to decide that you are madly in love with me, and that you want to marry me. This is just for testing purposes, so after about five minutes you don't have to be in love with me anymore.