Thread: why are we so obsessed with proving other people wrong and making ourselves look good?

Originally Posted by kookyinc

The problem I'm having with you is that you take my examples as suggestions of a singular factor for something, and this is not what I'm doing. I said,

Now I get to make light of my qualify like you did with your "if and or" comment. I stated apparently because all you have talked about IS the bible. Please go on though and tell me of these other prejudice works that have developed homophobic behavior through the history of man. Or where are these monolithic homogenized cultures of intolerance? Also if it is not asking too much I would like to hear how people can "unconsciously" be homosexual. As if people can be gay without them knowing they actually are gay.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Again, these are not the only factors, not all must be present, and multiple can be present in different people. I'm sorry it's not a formulaic rule, but please, try to understand, this is a fluid issue that can not be addressed with a rigid set of factors X, Y, and Z needing to always be present exactly as I state them.
If you can't understand that last paragraph, I promise that I will abandon all hope and cease talking to you on this thread because obviously it means you're as dense as a black hole.

I understand what you are trying to do but you don't see the basic level that I am trying to get out of you. One of your claims is that prejudice works or cultures create homophobic behavior. You seem to think that they are a given and start from there. This to me is an inadequate starting point. Why are these works created and why do people attach themselves to it? What is at the base of this? That is what I am trying to get your answer about but you are just on the periphery with you sentiments like how religion causes it or something similar to that.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Actually, yes. It's called dogma. It's called fearing to question one's belief for fear of hellfire (in this example which relates to Christianity). People don't just sit down and question what they believe about the nature of human existence, the meaning of life, and the universe itself just willy-nilly. Why would they if they believe something strongly enough? And why would they if they believe that examining these concepts with a critical eye will lead to eternal damnation? Some just do not want to take this risk, however nonexistent it may be to the outside observer. Take it from an ex-Christian, it took a lot of persuading and suggesting to get me to even consider re-examining my faith.

How do you know that people don't question the nature of human existence. That is probably one of the reasons people do get into religion because they think it retains answers about why they are here, what they are suppose to do, how to do it and what comes from doing it. Admittedly humans do think they have the answer until they are confronted with something that contradicts or lessens the value of their answer but with all the "non-Christian" happens of the world evolving in the eyes of Christians, how can they not be led to question?

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Again, because if you are taught from birth that clouds are made of ghosts and if you doubt for even a second that clouds are made of ghosts, the ghosts will tie you to a bed and beat you with reeds for eternity, you won't even dare to doubt whether clouds are ghosts. Some people are taught to never think critically and objectively.

I think that would deny people a conscious which sociopaths don't have but being a sociopath doesn't follow to you being a homophobe or vice-versa.

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Correct, but no intelligent person would say that every person in a culture believes all of the exact same things. It's more of a generalization. For the most part, people think X or Y.

Then is it really a culture? Or just an abstract to better compartmentize terms? Does a culture even believe one thing unanimously?

Originally Posted by kookyinc

Here it appears you mix the words "majority" and "everyone." Most very strong Christians think that at least homosexuality is a sin when practiced. Not all, most. Many people in the USA are homophobic because the culture in the States generally makes homosexuals and homosexuality the butt of a joke or an insult (an example being, "That's so gay.") Not all, but many.

So you think homophobic behavior stems from saying things like "that's gay?" What if homosexual people where to use this phrase?

Originally Posted by kookyinc

I'm not talking about an ignorance to whether homosexuality exists, I mean an ignorance to how a homosexual person feels.
I'm a straight male. I do not know how it feels to be romantically attracted to a man. I know some men feel these feelings, but I do not know what they feel like. Thus, it is harder for me to empathize with these feelings compared to if I had to empathize with the feelings of a straight man. Granted, this alone does not make one a homophobe, but when this lack of empathy is combined with a culture that can breed contempt for gays, you can get a solution of homophobia.

Yes, but homosexuals aren't imbued with some remarkable emotion that heterosexuals don't have. They are human, you are human so it seems practical to say that what a homosexual thinks and feels of love is probably the same as you think and feel love. Of course you can trying to turn it into metaphors by saying love is like 100 chocolates or whatever but both you and a homosexual would elicit the same "love" response.

Anyways, I think this topic has run its course. I will give you the last word since you've been a good sport.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Now I get to make light of my qualify like you did with your "if and or" comment. I stated apparently because all you have talked about IS the bible. Please go on though and tell me of these other prejudice works that have developed homophobic behavior through the history of man.

The Bible and Torah (Leviticus 18:22), The Qu'ran (Sura 26:165-7) (also, note that these 3 faiths comprise about 50% of the Earth), some Buddhists, though not all (3rd of the 5 Precepts), and the Vendidad (a religious book of the now largely defunct Zoroastrian religion of ancient Iran).

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Or where are these monolithic homogenized cultures of intolerance?

I already said, nothing is completely homogenized.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Also if it is not asking too much I would like to hear how people can "unconsciously" be homosexual. As if people can be gay without them knowing they actually are gay.

It's called the unconscious mind, about the only worthwhile contribution of Sigmund Freud. It's called denial. It's called Ted Haggard, Mark Foley, Larry Craig, Eddie Long, George Rekers, and of course, my personal favorite, Roy Ashburn (if you read no other stories, read his, or watch this video).

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

I understand what you are trying to do but you don't see the basic level that I am trying to get out of you. One of your claims is that prejudice works or cultures create homophobic behavior. You seem to think that they are a given and start from there. This to me is an inadequate starting point. Why are these works created and why do people attach themselves to it? What is at the base of this? That is what I am trying to get your answer about but you are just on the periphery with you sentiments like how religion causes it or something similar to that.

People can get started on it because their parents taught them to believe in religion X, and the parent's parents taught them the same thing, and so on. I don't know the first cause, but most people who are religious are the same religion as their parents because they re taught to believe that stuff.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

How do you know that people don't question the nature of human existence. That is probably one of the reasons people do get into religion because they think it retains answers about why they are here, what they are suppose to do, how to do it and what comes from doing it. Admittedly humans do think they have the answer until they are confronted with something that contradicts or lessens the value of their answer but with all the "non-Christian" happens of the world evolving in the eyes of Christians, how can they not be led to question?

Because some people obviously don't question their own beliefs because they are specifically taught not to. A question can be raised, but it is immediately discarded as someone fears hellfire or a similar punishment from a jealous deity. Some people go into religion because they have questions that can't be answered otherwise, but some go into religion because they are taught to believe in faith X and to never question it.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

I think that would deny people a conscious which sociopaths don't have but being a sociopath doesn't follow to you being a homophobe or vice-versa.

Sorry, my metaphor was a bit vague and stupid.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Then is it really a culture? Or just an abstract to better compartmentize terms? Does a culture even believe one thing unanimously?

We can debate semantics (well, I won't participate, so I guess we can't ), but I define "culture" as a set of beliefs held generally held by people in or from a similar geographical region or ancestry. So a culture is not unanimous, but it contains common thoughts and whatnot (at least, that is the definition that I learned).

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

So you think homophobic behavior stems from saying things like "that's gay?" What if homosexual people where to use this phrase?

I think it does not necessarily stem from this type of language, but using words for homosexuality as derogatory terms can reinforce the notion of homophobia.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Yes, but homosexuals aren't imbued with some remarkable emotion that heterosexuals don't have. They are human, you are human so it seems practical to say that what a homosexual thinks and feels of love is probably the same as you think and feel love. Of course you can trying to turn it into metaphors by saying love is like 100 chocolates or whatever but both you and a homosexual would elicit the same "love" response.

I understand that, but it's the, "Wait, you are in love with a guy?!??!!??!//111one" sort of thing. I'm unable to see any innate beauty in the male form that is greater than that of the female form, and this is what I mean by saying straight men not completely understanding homosexual men, no matter how open minded they are.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Anyways, I think this topic has run its course. I will give you the last word since you've been a good sport.

I concur, and thanks. You's a good fellow.
Also, other people, use this discussion as an example for further elaboration on the original topic please? Pretend our chat was a clever way to provide an example of the activities that we should be talking about. Please? Ok, fine, I apologize for being off-topic.