Thread: why are we so obsessed with proving other people wrong and making ourselves look good?

Humans will always have a burning urge to be right and as Foucault says knowledge is power. In an ideal world everyone would be right about everything even if it contradicted reality but this would be a paradox, there is such thing as true and false despite what people want to believe.

I would imagine that this thread is largely a shot at the discussions on R/S. It depends on how you look at it, you could say someone is "tearing apart" someones ideas and another would say it is just a logical discourse. Alot of people on dreamviews are really scared of being contradicted or proved wrong in front of all their friends and that is their problem in my opinion. I love debates but if you notice my posts I never call anyone an idiot or stupid, its not my style.

Like I said many people find confrontation to be threatening, I however find it to be constructive. We grow from confrontation, this is what has sped along evolution, it makes us stronger and better able to face new challenges. Consider the dialectical process: we have the thesis(original idea) opposed to the antithesis(opposing idea) and together they form the synthesis(combination of both ideas).

Anyway I'm done.

Originally Posted by erible

why can't we waste our time and energy on beneficial things.

obviously it depends on your example, but here on Dreamviews, we have discussions about many different things. if I could use these as an example, I would say that you're wrong.
we're not trying to tear people down. not actively, at least. we're sharing knowledge. that's what discussions are. we're not yelling at each other, telling everyone how stupid they are. we're saying they're wrong, then giving reasons why they're wrong, and asking them why they believe what they do. it's not about being shitty to other people, it's about letting intelligence and knowledge flow from person to person. that's what the internet should be used for.

to add to your point, everything about capitalism is a rat race. it's all about being better than the next guy. competition. it's inherently ingrained in my society is about priding yourself on being better than that guy over there. obviously this kind of thinking encourages put-downs and pedestals.

so what can you do to help? how do we prevent this? by letting people know what they're doing. tell someone they're being a dick. tell them they're being shitty, and give them reasons why.

Originally Posted by stormcrow

Human will always have a burning urge to be right and as Foucault says knowledge is power. In an ideal world everyone would be right about everything even if it contradicted reality but this would be a paradox, there is such thing as true and false despite what people want to believe.

I would imagine that this thread is largely a shot at the discussions on R/S. It depends on how you look at it, you could say someone is "tearing apart" someones ideas and another would say it is just a logical discourse. Alot of people on dreamviews are really scared of being contradicted or proved wrong in front of all their friends and that is their problem in my opinion. I love debates but if you notice my posts I never call anyone an idiot or stupid, its not my style.

I catch your drift. (did I just say that?) and its not even the R/S section, just anything really. I don't see anything in an actual helpful discussion with CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, not calling people stupid or idiots, just because you don't believe the same thing. I don't see why all the hate is so "necessary" to have a "helpful" "debate", when really its just attacking people. Even if I'm with friends or whomever and they just say someone is fat or ugly, I don't get how someone can say that.....I don't feel comfortable when people are saying stuff like that :/

Originally Posted by no-Name

obviously it depends on your example, but here on Dreamviews, we have discussions about many different things. if I could use these as an example, I would say that you're wrong.
we're not trying to tear people down. not actively, at least. we're sharing knowledge. that's what discussions are. we're not yelling at each other, telling everyone how stupid they are. we're saying they're wrong, then giving reasons why they're wrong, and asking them why they believe what they do. it's not about being shitty to other people, it's about letting intelligence and knowledge flow from person to person. that's what the internet should be used for.

to add to your point, everything about capitalism is a rat race. it's all about being better than the next guy. competition. it's inherently ingrained in my society is about priding yourself on being better than that guy over there. obviously this kind of thinking encourages put-downs and pedestals.

so what can you do to help? how do we prevent this? by letting people know what they're doing. tell someone they're being a dick. tell them they're being shitty, and give them reasons why.

honestly, some people on DV are just dicks. They're everywhere, yes there are constructive things on here but not everything is. Obviously.

but why does everything have to be a competition in the first place, I know thats how the world is, but what about being kind? what happened to that? we act like its so great to put other people down.

Keep in mind that the internet is an awful medium to convey emotions, that why I sometimes add little smiley faces when I dont want my post to be taken as hostile.

here's an example of what I'm talking about, one of my friends is really homophobic.
In one of my classes we talked about homosexuality, most people were against it and I proudly said I supported it, I'm not gay, but I still don't see what is so "wrong" about it.
Love is love, right? why do people have to be so hate filled toward these people for something that doesn't even effect their lives....I try to talk to her, but she doesn't listen. She doesn't care, or even try to.


also, this thread isn't to cause problems or arguments....that isn't my intention because I hate arguments

Originally Posted by erible

here's an example of what I'm talking about, one of my friends is really homophobic.
In one of my classes we talked about homosexuality, most people were against it and I proudly said I supported it, I'm not gay, but I still don't see what is so "wrong" about it.
Love is love, right? why do people have to be so hate filled toward these people for something that doesn't even effect their lives....I try to talk to her, but she doesn't listen. She doesn't care, or even try to.

sure, but that's ignorance. a lack of knowledge. which is what I was talking about. if you learn to talk to her, you can teach her, and convince her that there's nothing wrong.

why is she ignorant, though? because her parents or friends are/were, or she had a bad experience with someone that happened to be homosexual. or possibly some other scenario. it's not important why, only that we end it.

Originally Posted by no-Name

sure, but that's ignorance. a lack of knowledge. which is what I was talking about. if you learn to talk to her, you can teach her, and convince her that there's nothing wrong.

why is she ignorant, though? because her parents or friends are/were, or she had a bad experience with someone that happened to be homosexual. or possibly some other scenario. it's not important why, only that we end it.

yes but she is an extremely stubborn person...its very hard convincing her of anything without her getting mad and ignoring you

Some people are raised in a culture that views knowledge as a threat. My advice is to talk to her rationally, articulately and assertively. I have experienced people who wont even listen to what you are trying to say and that's fine they can stay in their bubble. Best thing to do is to shrug it off, you tried your best.

Originally Posted by erible

Even if I'm with friends or whomever and they just say someone is fat or ugly, I don't get how someone can say that.....I don't feel comfortable when people are saying stuff like that :/

Originally Posted by erible

honestly, some people on DV are just dicks.

How could you call people on DV dicks? It's because that's how you feel. When your friends call somebody fat or ugly, it is because that is how they feel. Humans have a desire to share their feelings and be understood. You also have to take into account that not all people are perhaps as... sensitive or caring as you (towards others or yourself). Some people are like you, and care very much whether someone is being insulted, excluded, or anything of that nature. Others simply don't care. They don't have an emotional connection with that human being, and they honestly couldn't give two shits about how they feel. That's just the way of the world. Imo, it seems like caring for others would be a biological imperative for humans. However, as life has been less about survival for some time now, I believe that that biological imperative is fading, and the result is the seething hate and/or utter disregard for other human beings that you see today.

I could be wrong, but that's what I think.

Human nature bro, the best you can do is realize it, and try not to be a dick. I would probably say something different if a dick member said this, but with that being said, you are not part of the dick member population lol.

Originally Posted by erible

yes but she is an extremely stubborn person...its very hard convincing her of anything without her getting mad and ignoring you

is that a good enough excuse for you?

Originally Posted by fautzo

Human nature bro, the best you can do is realize it, and try not to be a dick. I would probably say something different if a dick member said this, but with that being said, you are not part of the dick member population lol.

you're not going to do anything either? just going to let people be dicks? not doing anything at all to help?

All (fine, most) people live in a dichotomous world of black and white. Ergo, if this person is less credible/intelligent/strong/awesome/sexy, I should point it out because that will raise me up on the scale and make me more credible/intelligent/strong/awesome/sexy. That's how I see it.
With regards to prejudices, that's just ignorance and indoctrination. If you've always been taught that gays are bad, and you see (see is a key word, some can't find it and some shut their eyes when it is presented) no really new evidence to suggest that gays are not bad, why would your belief change? Also, different is scary, and most people would rather there not be differences between people than celebrate diversity.

Originally Posted by no-Name

is that a good enough excuse for you?

you're not going to do anything either? just going to let people be dicks? not doing anything at all to help?

Self improvement is the first step to improving the world yo.

Originally Posted by fautzo

Self improvement is the first step to improving the world yo.

sure. but that's completely unrelated. unless there's something you were saying about me?

we can do both at the same time. I often learn plenty by teaching, or through discussion.

@ snoop, I said dick because no-name mentioned dicks in DV

@ no-Name, well, I have no way to break the barrier of her stubbornness, I have tried all of the tactics I can, without trying to be too assertive.

well you can call someone out for being a dick but a lot of the time they don't realize it and just end up not liking you.

This isn't entirely true at all though, this is just from my experience, it's completely different to tell someone their faults irl and on the internet, they only way you can take constructive criticism (at least in my opinion) is if you're open to listening at the time. A lot of the time, people aren't.

I understand the discussion part, but I'm a little confused on the teaching part, when are we gonna teach people how to act, if we're a role model?

Originally Posted by fautzo

well you can call someone out for being a dick but a lot of the time they don't realize it and just end up not liking you.

when I tell someone they're wrong, I give them reasons why they're wrong. they're still wrong if they happen to not like me while I'm telling them they're wrong.

This isn't entirely true at all though, this is just from my experience, it's completely different to tell someone their faults irl and on the internet, they only way you can take constructive criticism (at least in my opinion) is if you're open to listening at the time. A lot of the time, people aren't.

yup.

I understand the teaching and discussion part, but I'm a little confused on the teaching part, when are we gonna teach people how to act, if we're a role model?

when I see someone being a dick, I confront them about it and engage in a conversation with them. I converse with them, and tell them why they're being a dick, and how to stop it.
obviously we should take our own advice, and live by it. double standards are pretty bad.

Originally Posted by no-Name

when I see someone being a dick, I confront them about it and engage in a conversation with them. I converse with them, and tell them why they're being a dick, and how to stop it.

Yea, that does work, I think everybody has been told that at least once, and I usually fuckin hate it, even if I know they're right, but I usually only listen if it comes from a person I have a lot of respect for.

I can't handle confrontation or chaos. My home, while growing up, was overflowing with it. My dad called my mom a fat cow/bitch/lazy/useless and mom called him an ass and a bastard. Daily. For most of my life, I was a complete doormat and did everything possible to avoid anger.
When I was about 13 years old I started "training" myself to be NOTHING like my parents. I was a self-injurer and "punished" myself if I ever hurt someone else (or a variety of other reasons). I called it my "Pavlos Dog's" training. For the most part, it worked a little too well.

These past 10 years or so have been easier for me to show anger.
Growing up as I did, I still don't understand the aggression of other people.
If anyone near me is being an ass, I simply tell them to "Be nice". When my kids want to tell me a joke, the first thing I ask is "Is it appropriate?" If a stranger is being an ass, I make excuses for their emotions and stay about my business (maybe they lost their job or their spouse left them or they're just having a rotten day). I can usually shrug it off. But if someone is being physically abusive, I'll step right in.

As for being right... I can personally feel vindicated in my own beliefs but I understand not everyone will share that view So, if I'm having a "debate" or something, I'll say my piece then be quiet. I'll explain my position as best as possible, but I'm not going to argue simply for the point of saying words. They wont convince me otherwise and I won't convince them. It's drives me bananas when people constantly try to one-up each other.

Not everybody's obsessed with that sort of thing. I love to have intellectual conversations. It's just that debates always have more than one viewpoint, and you need to debate (not argue, debate) in order to find the best answer/solution to the problem.

Now, I know that it gets heated when people are talking about religious views, but that's because religious individuals hold views that they were taught ever since they were growing up, and it makes them uncomfortable when people challenge their beliefs. Eventually you end up having a never ending stream of logical fallacies from the creationists' side, atheists tearing them a new asshole, mockery coming from both sides, etc, and so it gets very emotional for some people who can't handle a real debate. However in most other debates, aside from politics, this is not the case. It's simply a handful of people throwing out ideas and analyzing the subject to prove the point they think is right, and when someone gets proved wrong, it's not a big deal.


Personally, I'm more concerned with advancing my own viewpoint. I don't tie myself to any particular views because that doesn't allow personal progress. Therefore, I'm not interested very much at all in simply defending my position for the sake of it; however, my intelligence permits me to take the best position and defend it pretty well in the large majority of debates.

Originally Posted by MindGames

Not everybody's obsessed with that sort of thing. I love to have intellectual conversations. It's just that debates always have more than one viewpoint, and you need to debate (not argue, debate) in order to find the best answer/solution to the problem.

Now, I know that it gets heated when people are talking about religious views, but that's because religious individuals hold views that they were taught ever since they were growing up, and it makes them uncomfortable when people challenge their beliefs. Eventually you end up having a never ending stream of logical fallacies from the creationists' side, atheists tearing them a new asshole, mockery coming from both sides, etc, and so it gets very emotional for some people who can't handle a real debate. However in most other debates, aside from politics, this is not the case. It's simply a handful of people throwing out ideas and analyzing the subject to prove the point they think is right, and when someone gets proved wrong, it's not a big deal.


Personally, I'm more concerned with advancing my own viewpoint. I don't tie myself to any particular views because that doesn't allow personal progress. Therefore, I'm not interested very much at all in simply defending my position for the sake of it; however, my intelligence permits me to take the best position and defend it pretty well in the large majority of debates.

Well said sir.

Do you think that it's because people are wrong and that you're just projecting the part about people trying to make themselves look good? It is a little sloppy and arrogant to make presumptions concerning others motives.

As someone who sometimes posts very bluntly and passionately, there are probably several people here who would consider me 'a bit of a dick'. There's likely some truth in that.

However, the reason why I go about that isn't because of a need to make myself feel superior, get a kick out of insulting people, or love ripping apart peoples' beliefs, nor is it because I'm filled with hatred.

When I do post in such a way, then there's generally a constructive reason behind it. Others will disagree with me here, but sometimes, I think the benefit of saying to someone "you're being fucking stupid" outweighs the drawbacks. Now I'm not perfect and I'm flawed like everyone else, and have bad days, but generally that is the case.

It's important to note that my reasons are not the same as for many others out there. Some simply look for a target. Some attack others out of fear, or because they perceive something about that person as being an attack on their beliefs. It might be to gain social acceptance by conforming to group beliefs. In the case of someone calling another 'fat' or 'ugly' then it could even be an immature way of expressing disgust. The person might well be insecure. There are a whole bunch of reasons.

Photolysis is correct, along with some points others have made.

There are many reasons.

I think the most common, though, is that people aren't sure of their ideas or beliefs.
When you debate with someone over anything, and they realise you might be correct, because they don't know everything about the topic, or they just aren't sure for whatever reason, but they have been pretending to themselves and others that they are sure, they get embarrassed and want to defend their position to save their face. Since they have no logical reasons with which to defend their position, they resort to anger.

I suspect this is the case with your friend. Either that or she is gay and doesn't want to admit it.

I also sometimes feign anger as a tactic, but it's controlled and I express it as sureness. There's a slight difference.

Other times I am so dumbfounded how someone cannot see their stupidity that I get unbelievably exasperated. Or depressed.