Thread: ABORTION: Where do you stand?

Why u guys talk about fetus.

My opinion and what i think is ,

if a Human loves a human , then he should love to have more humans in this world , what if the baby which will be born and grow up do something reallly really important for you & other peoples in ur life? doesn't matter who is the father u cant just change it , your pregnant hold on u do it 1 time then you can be happy for sure cus there will be someone with u and u will have something to do , if u dont want the baby there are thousand clinics in ur country thats another choice .
You just never know and u should accept that it naturally came and it should be naturally born .


Its like:
we let cows,chickens and more animals to be born because we require the food, milk, and so on.
see , what if we kill all animals which brings u food and eat them then where u will get that food? forget it.


thats similar with a humans , every human brings something new in life . the more human the more increase of life technology or how is it called.


im really sry for my bad english
KarLi*

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

All of the things you listed are subconscious actions, except for emotion and thought, and thus don't matter. The fetus has no control over those. Regarding emotion and thought, I would like to see some sources showing that fetuses possess such attributes.

Well, actually emotions can really be subconcious actions too. Some brain dead people cry, or smile, so it's very difficult to pick out what action is subconcious and what is not, especially since as far as I know, neither of us are professionals on the subject. How do you know that a fetus does not cry because it's sad, or smile because it is happy? The burden of proof is as heavy on you as it is on me.

Furthermore, you have ignored all of my questions, which makes me think you don't really have answers to them.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE

All of the things you listed are subconscious actions, except for emotion and thought, and thus don't matter. The fetus has no control over those. Regarding emotion and thought, I would like to see some sources showing that fetuses possess such attribute

Actually the subconscious does play a role in your emotions as well as your thought pattern. So the subconscious actions are relevant for the entire list.

Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

But what if I disagree with you? What if I think that all those people are doing is using my tax dollars and being miserable, useless lumps of flesh? I should still get to kill them, right? Because to ME, they're not people. And I'm what matters.

See, you get into very murky waters when you start having to define what makes a valid human "experience". It sounds a bit like you're making it up as you go along.

Find me a person that remembers their experience as a fetus.

Also the major difference between you and me is that you're the one making impositions on others and trying to tell them what they can and can't do. For this reason, you should be the one justifying your actions.

Whether or not tax dollars should fund abortions is irrelevant to whether they should be allowed.

And what is your stance, Ne-Yo, on this issue?

No dear, the major difference between us is that you think it's okay to kill. However, you don't have a great argument to back it up.

Find me a person that remembers their first year of life. Humans have shit memories. That does nothing to prove your point.

Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

And what is your stance, Ne-Yo, on this issue?

I think abortion should only be used under dire circumstances.

1) Severe fetal deformity in which the fetus is not likely to survive anyway.
2) Mother experiences a terminal health risk.
3) Mother's life is threatened by her pregnancy.

Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

No dear, the major difference between us is that you think it's okay to kill. However, you don't have a great argument to back it up.

Find me a person that remembers their first year of life. Humans have shit memories. That does nothing to prove your point.

If I think it's OK to kill then why am I not in jail for murder? Please don't extend your self-righteous morals to all the Earth's population, especially when the majority don't agree with you.

Do you think I'm killing by having my appendix removed? Are you killing when you have your period? Human cells are going to die and we can use any human tissue to create a new organism, potential for life...

A fetus is no more a person than an appendix, and murder is the unlawful killing of a person.

Yes a toddler has very little experience, but it does interact with others. I have to draw the line somewhere, and I feel generous in saying that I would make every effort possible to ensure that a 1 day old baby would have a healthy, normal life.

You seem to be letting your emotions get the better of you. You have to remember that this isn't about what you want (you can do whatever you want), but about what others want. So a 16 year old girl gets pregnant by accident and doesn't want to keep the baby, she gets an abortion. What do you want to happen to her? A fine, prison time, death penalty?

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I think abortion should only be used under dire circumstances.

1) Severe fetal deformity in which the fetus is not likely to survive anyway.
2) Mother experiences a terminal health risk.
3) Mother's life is threatened by her pregnancy.

I would say, we are pretty close to being in agreement.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

If I think it's OK to kill then why am I not in jail for murder? Please don't extend your self-righteous morals to all the Earth's population, especially when the majority don't agree with you.

Do you think I'm killing by having my appendix removed? Are you killing when you have your period? Human cells are going to die and we can use any human tissue to create a new organism, potential for life...

A fetus is no more a person than an appendix, and murder is the unlawful killing of a person.

Yes a toddler has very little experience, but it does interact with others. I have to draw the line somewhere, and I feel generous in saying that I would make every effort possible to ensure that a 1 day old baby would have a healthy, normal life.

You seem to be letting your emotions get the better of you. You have to remember that this isn't about what you want (you can do whatever you want), but about what others want. So a 16 year old girl gets pregnant by accident and doesn't want to keep the baby, she gets an abortion. What do you want to happen to her? A fine, prison time, death penalty?

Why are you not in jail for murder? Very simple. Because you are a coward. You think it's okay to kill something as long as it can't tell you that it wants to live, as long as it can't make you feel guilty for causing it physical pain and ending it's life. You are like everyone else who shares your mindset; endlessly selfish and cowardly. Furthermore, you have yet to give me a convincing argument that a fetus is not a person. You cannot even define, in the world according to you, what makes a person a person. Is it age? Mental capability? The ability to retain memories? The ability to conversate? Is it having worthwhile (according to you, OF COURSE since you make the rules) interactions with people? I can find people who are unable to do all of these things. So, why can't I chop them up and throw them away? Give me an answer.

As for my emotions...well, this is a subject pretty close to my heart, so you'll have to excuse me if I get a little revved up. I am very aware that I can do what I want and make my own choices. So can you, and never have you seen me say that I think the best choice is to make abortion illegal. That's not what this thread is about. I want to know people's opinions and how they have formed them in their minds. I also want to see how they defend those opinions. So far, you are very disappointing.

Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Well, actually emotions can really be subconcious actions too. Some brain dead people cry, or smile, so it's very difficult to pick out what action is subconcious and what is not, especially since as far as I know, neither of us are professionals on the subject. How do you know that a fetus does not cry because it's sad, or smile because it is happy? The burden of proof is as heavy on you as it is on me.

Well, how do we know the fetus can be sad or happy? Specifically, how do we know the fetus is actually, consciously, reacting to something? I don't think the brain is developed enough at that time to allow such a thing.

Furthermore, you have ignored all of my questions, which makes me think you don't really have answers to them.

The biological characteristics that describe the Homo sapiens sapiens species make us human.

Damn, the thread ballooned to 4 pages already. I wish I could have inserted this comment in the OP...

Most discussions of abortion issues are completely plagued by people mixing up two separate issues and failing to realize it. Most of these discussions (although not all of course) could be avoided entirely if people just kept these issues straight. On the one hand, there is the issue of whether one thinks that abortion is morally wrong. On the other hand is the issue of the degree to which one thinks abortions should be legal. Let's make this clear: These are separate and dissociable issues! It would be perfectly logically consistent to be "pro choice" in the legal sense (and note that both commonly discussed positions are referring to the legal issue rather than the moral issue) despite personally viewing abortion as morally wrong; it simply means that you don't feel compelled to impose your own sense of morality on the rest of society. Not only is this perfectly consistent, but polling data indicate that a very large portion of people fall into this category. It's a fact that in recent years the "pro choice" position has become easily more common than the "pro life" position, despite that people remain significantly more divided on their moral opinions on the matter--presumably precisely because people have been moving into this category.

So please... argue way, but just be clear what it is you're arguing about.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Well, how do we know the fetus can be sad or happy? Specifically, how do we know the fetus is actually, consciously, reacting to something? I don't think the brain is developed enough at that time to allow such a thing.



The biological characteristics that describe the Homo sapiens sapiens species make us human.

Well, I'm not a professional on fetal development, sorry. So, my arguments regarding that are pretty much useless since I can't back them up with fact, and I'm pretty sure you're in the same boat. We're just beating a dead horse.

I've asked you many more questions than simply 'what makes us human'.

Originally Posted by DuB

Damn, the thread ballooned to 4 pages already. I wish I could have inserted this comment in the OP...

Most discussions of abortion issues are completely plagued by people mixing up two separate issues and failing to realize it. Most of these discussions (although not all of course) could be avoided entirely if people just kept these issues straight. On the one hand, there is the issue of whether one thinks that abortion is morally wrong. On the other hand is the issue of the degree to which one thinks abortions should be legal. Let's make this clear: These are separate and dissociable issues! It would be perfectly logically consistent to be "pro choice" in the legal sense (and note that both commonly discussed positions are referring to the legal issue rather than the moral issue) despite personally viewing abortion as morally wrong; it simply means that you don't feel compelled to impose your own sense of morality on the rest of society. Not only is this perfectly consistent, but polling data indicate that a very large portion of people fall into this category. It's a fact that in recent years the "pro choice" position has become easily more common than the "pro life" position, despite that people remain significantly more divided on their moral opinions on the matter--presumably precisely because people have been moving into this category.

So please... argue way, but just be clear what it is you're arguing about.

I'm with you DuB. I don't care to debate the legal standpoint, but some people keep throwing it in there.

Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Well, I'm not a professional on fetal development, sorry. So, my arguments regarding that are pretty much useless since I can't back them up with fact, and I'm pretty sure you're in the same boat. We're just beating a dead horse.

So what's with all the emotional appeals you've been making? Especially the one about "causing a fetus physical pain" even though they don't have the ability to experience pain.

I've asked you many more questions than simply 'what makes us human'.

You only asked two additional ones. Do we have souls? No, I don't think so. Why is it wrong to kill someone? Because it is socially accepted that ending another person's life without their consent is wrong. Plus, how good would you feel if you killed someone?

Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Why are you not in jail for murder? Very simple. Because you are a coward.

Ad hominem.

You think it's okay to kill something as long as it can't tell you that it wants to live, as long as it can't make you feel guilty for causing it physical pain and ending it's life.

I also hunt animals. I'm sure PETA wants to see me in jail as much as you. Different groups have different sets of morals. Do you know that many muslim countries would have you stoned for getting pregnant outside of wedlock? Do you know how many millions of people would like to see you stoned? Take this into consideration while you try to pass judgement on me.

You are like everyone else who shares your mindset; endlessly selfish and cowardly.

Ad hominem. Arguments not insults.

Furthermore, you have yet to give me a convincing argument that a fetus is not a person.

I'm sorry but you are not here to be convinced. You have made your choice which is deeply influenced by your past experience. There's no way that some dude on the internet is going to make your way of thinking do a 180˚ in a few hours.

You cannot even define, in the world according to you, what makes a person a person. Is it age? Mental capability? The ability to retain memories? The ability to conversate? Is it having worthwhile (according to you, OF COURSE since you make the rules) interactions with people?

I have done so numerous times. The fact that you don't agree with my definition of a person doesn't change my perception of one. What is your definition of a person? Is a zygote a person?

I can find people who are unable to do all of these things. So, why can't I chop them up and throw them away? Give me an answer.

Never will you find, no matter how lame or disabled, a person with less experience or personal interaction than a fetus. Like I said, I draw the line somewhere, at birth. No matter how insignificant, after birth you have lived an experience or directly affected another human being.

As for my emotions...well, this is a subject pretty close to my heart, so you'll have to excuse me if I get a little revved up. I am very aware that I can do what I want and make my own choices. So can you, and never have you seen me say that I think the best choice is to make abortion illegal. That's not what this thread is about.

Clearly you are not acting impartially and trying to collect data. You are pushing an agenda and are hostile to those that don't share your mindset. Are you trying to understand why we think abortion is OK or are you trying to attack our way of thinking?

I want to know people's opinions and how they have formed them in their minds. I also want to see how they defend those opinions. So far, you are very disappointing.

So what are you going to do with that 16 year old that got an abortion? Fine, prison, death penalty?

Based on my own sway towards Libertarianism, I'd consider myself Pro-Choice. I do not have the right to tell other people how to act, but I believe that any mother or father to-be that has to make that decision will be impacted enough by their choice. I would not PERSONALLY support the abortion of my own child, but I will not tell anyone that it's wrong of them to do so.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

So what's with all the emotional appeals you've been making? Especially the one about "causing a fetus physical pain" even though they don't have the ability to experience pain.



You only asked two additional ones. Do we have souls? No, I don't think so. Why is it wrong to kill someone? Because it is socially accepted that ending another person's life without their consent is wrong. Plus, how good would you feel if you killed someone?

Alright, let's just say we're taking that study as the absolute truth. So, fetuses can feel pain at 26 weeks. So you're saying that when I kill my unborn child at 40 weeks, it's not going to feel pain? Bullshit. And I'm allowed to kill it then, according to many people who have responded to this thread. What, exactly, was your point with that?

So, we don't have souls, according to you. Good to know. Also, the only reason it's wrong to kill someone is because society frowns upon it and it wouldn't make us feel "good", although I might argue with you on that last part. Now, you are certainly ending a life without consent when you have an abortion. Oh, but wait...a fetus isn't a real person, right? Okay...so let me just make sure I've got this down. When, exactly, is a fetus considered a "person" to you?

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Ad hominem.



I also hunt animals. I'm sure PETA wants to see me in jail as much as you. Different groups have different sets of morals. Do you know that many muslim countries would have you stoned for getting pregnant outside of wedlock? Do you know how many millions of people would like to see you stoned? Take this into consideration while you try to pass judgement on me.



Ad hominem. Arguments not insults.



I'm sorry but you are not here to be convinced. You have made your choice which is deeply influenced by your past experience. There's no way that some dude on the internet is going to make your way of thinking do a 180˚ in a few hours.



I have done so numerous times. The fact that you don't agree with my definition of a person doesn't change my perception of one. What is your definition of a person? Is a zygote a person?



Never will you find, no matter how lame or disabled, a person with less experience or personal interaction than a fetus. Like I said, I draw the line somewhere, at birth. No matter how insignificant, after birth you have lived an experience or directly affected another human being.



Clearly you are not acting impartially and trying to collect data. You are pushing an agenda and are hostile to those that don't share your mindset. Are you trying to understand why we think abortion is OK or are you trying to attack our way of thinking?



So what are you going to do with that 16 year old that got an abortion? Fine, prison, death penalty?

I'm not "passing judgement" on you. I'm calling it how I see it. Abortion is a selfish choice. Pure and simple. Maybe I should whine that you're "judging" me by calling me judgemental.

Let's not get PETA involved in this, good Lord. Do we really need another thing to argue about? Also, I'm sure many cultures probably would have stoned the shit out of me by now, and that's cool. I live in America, so hopefully I won't run into those problems.

You have not given me an inclusive, solid answer on what you consider a life form needs to have in order to be considered a person, and therefore of value enough not to kill. I keep questioning you, and you keep adding to the list. You say they need experiences and personal interaction to make them worthwhile, but that falls apart when you take into consideration the tons of people that will never have an intelligent conversation with anyone. How is my 30 year old son sitting in a wheelchair, drooling onto his own shirt and staring blankly at me possibly more valuable than a 40 week old "fetus"? He serves ZERO purpose, and I don't want him. I should, by your logic, be able to kill him. Is it different because a baby is smaller and can't scream when you kill it? What, exactly, makes a mentally retarded man who does nothing except make someone care for him more valuable then a baby?

Also, I cannot really act impartially on most things in life. I'm a very passionate person, and I have opinions on EVERYTHING. That's just the way I am, sorry. I'm not trying to attack you so much as to get you to fully explain yourself. Some things I've said haven't been the nicest, but it's not like you're sweet as pie either.

That 16 year old? Well, in a perfect world, her parents would have taught her that you don't kill something just because you don't want it, and she would have listened. But...life isn't perfect, and I don't know all the answers. I am not here to say what should or should not be legal, or the penalties for breaking the law.

Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

When, exactly, is a fetus considered a "person" to you?

Originally Posted by a random site I found on Google

I cannot give you a week of development at which a fetus DOES have a conscousness, but we can say at which point it COULD have a consciousness -- and not before.

Consciousness depends on our neurons being able to communicate with each other; all the medical evidence and understanding we have in medicine and neuroscience points to consciousness and awareness arising out of cell interactions. This being the case, several criteria must be met:

1. The neurons must be sufficiently mature to develop an action potential, that is, the electrical inequality from one end of the cell to the other which allows a charge to pass through the cell.

2. It helps if the myelin sheaths of nerves have developed. Without that insulation, nerve cells cannot transmit the charge from one end of the nerve cell to the other without it being attenuated, interfered with, or lost. This is why demyelinization diseases are so devastating.

3. The body must be producing neurotransmitters; these chemicals allow the charge from one neuron to be transmitted across the interstitial spaces between cells. Without the presence of neurotransmitters, each neuron is isolated.

And we know roughly when these things start to happen in the developing fetus, although it varies slightly from one to the next. But based on that, we can say that there is definitely NOT anything like a fully working nervous system before week 20, although spontaneous, disconnected neural activity can be observed starting about week 17

So, to answer you're question, 17 weeks (4 months of fetal development). 4 months (120 days) is enough time for someone to decide whether or not they want the abortion, in my opinion. I wouldn't hold anything against anyone who decided an abortion was necessary during that time frame. I wouldn't be very gung-ho (so to speak) about an abortion being carried out after that period of time... unless it was deemed necessary in order to preserve the health of the would-be mother.

By that point in time, the fetus is more "alive" than a plant but not more than, say, an insect. So, if it's necessary, I wouldn't have any qualms over the abortion.

To put things into perspective, this is coming from someone who honestly feels pretty bad when he steps on something on the sidewalk and even momentarily disheartened if he breaks a branch off a tree... With that being said, I can honestly say that I value life, be it human or otherwise, as much as the next guy. I'm not being selfish, heartless, or even a coward when I say I don't beleive the potential life of a fetus should be valued over that of the already living mother. In my opinion, picking something that has the potential to become conscious later on over something that is already conscious, is slightly selfish; not the other way around. Again, my opinion; don't bite me.
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Enough of the hostility and snide/sarcastic remarks, please. I know it's technically on-topic but some of you are straying from it just a wee bit. =/

Originally Posted by GavinGill

So, to answer you're question, 17 weeks (4 months of fetal development). 4 months (120 days) is enough time for you to decide whether or not you want the abortion, in my opinion. I wouldn't hold anything against someone who decided an abortion was necessary during that time. I wouldn't be very gung-ho (so to speak) about an abortion being carried out after that period of time... unless it was deemed necessary in order to preserve the health of the would-be mother.

By that point in time, the fetus is more "alive" than a plant but not as much as say, an insect. So, if it's necessary, I wouldn't have any qualms over the abortion.

To put things into perspective, this is coming from someone who honestly feels pretty bad when he steps on something on the sidewalk and even momentarily disheartened if he breaks a branch off a tree... With that being said, I can honestly say that I value life as much as the next guy. I'm not being heartless or a coward when I say I don't beleive the potential life of a fetus should be valued over that of the already living mother.
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Enough of the hostility and snide/sarcastic remarks, please. I know it's technically on-topic but some of you are straying from it just a wee bit. =/

See, I like you. You give good, full examples of exactly what you believe. I might disagree with you, and I do, but at least I can respect your opinion.

Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

See, I like you.

Awww ponies! See, I can get along with people here.

Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Abortion is a selfish choice.

How so?

I live in America, so hopefully I won't run into those problems.

Unless you want to get an abortion, apparently...

You have not given me an inclusive, solid answer on what you consider a life form needs to have in order to be considered a person, and therefore of value enough not to kill. I keep questioning you, and you keep adding to the list. You say they need experiences and personal interaction to make them worthwhile, but that falls apart when you take into consideration the tons of people that will never have an intelligent conversation with anyone.

An unintelligent conversation is still vastly more important than no conversation at all, just as how an unintelligent person is still a person. Lets use some math...

Lets say that an intelligent conversation has a value of "1", and no conversation whatsoever would have a value of "0". An unintelligent conversation would have a value somewhere between 1 and 0. For the sake of argument, lets say it has a value of "0.1". Now how much more important is an unintelligent conversation than no conversation at all? Well lets see how many "no conversations" it would take to make an unintelligent conversation...

If you divide 0.1 by 0, you get a non-defined number that would tend towards infinity. So in practise, an unintelligent conversation is infinitely more important than no conversation whatsoever. This is the difference between a drooling retard of 40 IQ and a fetus; in my eyes anyways.

How is my 30 year old son sitting in a wheelchair, drooling onto his own shirt and staring blankly at me possibly more valuable than a 40 week old "fetus"? He serves ZERO purpose, and I don't want him.

Has he ever uttered a single sound? This is a form of communication. Your drooling 30 year old doesn't have 0 purpose, he has 0.000...001 purpose. Still infinitely more than a fetus.

Like I said, I draw the line at 0, which is when someone is born.

Also, I cannot really act impartially on most things in life. I'm a very passionate person, and I have opinions on EVERYTHING. That's just the way I am, sorry. I'm not trying to attack you so much as to get you to fully explain yourself. Some things I've said haven't been the nicest, but it's not like you're sweet as pie either.

Note that this doesn't really personally affect me. I have no uterus and will never have to make the choice to abort a child or not. I'm trying to look at the big picture and see if overall, society is best served by allowing abortion or not. I can think of more pros than cons. As a male, I also don't have the maternal drive to protect and upbring offspring that a woman would have; so I can see things more objectively, if somewhat "harshly".

That 16 year old? Well, in a perfect world, her parents would have taught her that you don't kill something just because you don't want it, and she would have listened. But...life isn't perfect, and I don't know all the answers. I am not here to say what should or should not be legal, or the penalties for breaking the law.

I just want to hear what you would do, you have full dominion over the fate of the girl. Clearly you don't approve of abortion, but are you ready to penalize a person for it? I disagree somewhat with DuB that the legal and moral aspects of abortion are segregated. I believe that they are intertwined within a person's opinion, and that the moral aspect is nearly moot given its subjective nature. If you don't have the will to impose any sort of punishment, are you sure that you truly disapprove of their actions?