Thread: ABORTION: Where do you stand?

Originally Posted by khh

I am definitively pro abortion, and I do not view abortion as immoral. There are mainly two things that together cause me to have this opinion.

First and foremost I consider a human-being's right to make choices about their own life one of the most important, basic human rights that exist. In this context, that means that a woman has an immutable right to make choices about her own body, which would include aborting an unwanted fetus. And before someone makes the argument, this does not apply to the fetus. It does not have the ability to make a choice.

Secondly a fetus is not a person. As has been stated it does not properly experience the world. It does not have memories. Thus killing a fetus isn't murder. The potential to be a person simply doesn't count.
(An interesting quirk: If a pregnant woman were to damage the fetus due to neglect (for instance by knowingly ingesting alcohol while pregnant), that would be an almost unforgivable offense if intending to let the fetus live, because it would cause suffering when the fetus became a person.)

Thus the consideration for the woman simply outweighs the slight immorality of killing a living thing by so much that it's not immoral.

Also, @OP: Cool down a bit. You're currently seem to be insulting almost everyone who disagrees with you. It does not make for a good discussion.

I'm going to say the same things to you as I have to everyone else that shares you opinion in this thread. If you are going to make rules on what qualifies you as a person, such as not "properly experiencing" the world, or having memories, ALOT of living people are not going to qualify. It simply does not hold up.

Also...it is HIGHLY frowned upon to drink while pregnant. Everyone knows that.

Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

I'm going to say the same things to you as I have to everyone else that shares you opinion in this thread. If you are going to make rules on what qualifies you as a person, such as not "properly experiencing" the world, or having memories, ALOT of living people are not going to qualify. It simply does not hold up.

Also...it is HIGHLY frowned upon to drink while pregnant. Everyone knows that.

First, it's a lot. Second, here is, clearly and concisely, exactly why a fetus is not equivalent to human life:

1) It has no emotions. A fetus does not feel. It cannot comprehend love or pain or death. It has no emotional attachment to the world.
2) a fetus is not an organism. Humans operate as organisms. We have cells that are differentiated into multiple complex organ systems that sustain us. A fetus does not have these structures and cannot be considered a complete organism until viability, when it has a 50% chance of living outside the womb under its own cellular support.
3) a fetus is not attached to other people (so to speak). It does not contribute to society, has no sunken cost, and if it is killed, deprives nobody (actually, its stem cells can go toward research that may save a fair number of cancer patients). I think it was you who said that an infertile woman views that fetus as priceless. Yet consider, the adoption agencies in place today are saturated. There are literally thousands upon thousands of already born children looking for a home. Further, it is an argument for the potential to become human life. Under your policy, women should give birth as often as humanly possible to sate the desires of infertile women. Anything else would deprive them horribly.

To clarify, I think a person in a persistent vegetative state, or else permanently brain dead, is a human no longer. The important part -- the ability to think, feel, and respond -- is gone. The body may yet be alive, but the person is AWOL.

I'm pro choice. As long the fetus doesn't suffer, killing it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Really, I don't really care about a child up until it starts to develop a personality, at which point I consider it should have rights granted to it, and would consider it murder if it were killed deliberately.

When it comes to abortion, in my opinion a fetus has no intrinsic right to utilise a mother's body for nourishment, even if I were to grant it the rights of a person, which I don't. See the violinist thought experiment.

I've always had a hard time about this. I couldn't have one even if i wanted to.

Monster, would appreciate if you could follow up from the first page; I asked why having periods is okay, you said things should just run their natural course, I replied with:

Originally Posted by Xei

Can you explain how deciding not to get pregnant when there is no fertilised egg in your body is letting things run their natural course, but deciding not to get pregnant when there is a fertilised egg in your body is not? Either nature includes human decisions or it doesn't. With no ill intent towards your trauma: the vast majority of people do not have pregnancy forced upon them by external events.

Originally Posted by Xei

Monster, would appreciate if you could follow up from the first page; I asked why having periods is okay, you said things should just run their natural course, I replied with:

Sorry! I try to get to everyone's responses, but it's hard to keep up sometimes. Ok, here we go...

First, my definition of "natural" seems to perhaps not be everyone's. That's okay, I'd just like you to keep that in mind while we're talking about this.

An unfertilized egg is just another cell in a woman's body. If it dies, it is of no consequence because it hurts no one. A woman's egg is completely a part of her own body and she is absolutely free to do with it what she pleases, which means fertilizing it or letting it die.

That's all I'm going to say in response to that. I don't really think it has much to do with the subject at hand. I don't care what anyone does with their own body cells. I only care about after conception. Once an egg is fertilized, another life has been made that is seperate from the mother, and that's what the debate is about.

Hoo boy, Indeed a heated topic. Thought I might chime in as I think learning about complex issues such as these are important to increase ones understanding. Where to begin.. Ill try to address some of the posts made. I think the author of this thread thinks abortion is unnatural because it does not occur in nature such as with animals (although I certainly dont claim to know about all animals). I think this is a real question about morals, which I find more and more people lacking as I learn more about the world. Of course, an individuals freedom of choice is very important, its up to the individual to decide if they consider a fetus or a person, or if its murder, etc. Same thing applies with the "its her body" statement, while the fetus is Inside the womans body, its is certainly NOT her or a body part like an arm, it is a potential living being which is growing inside her.

Much of this debate depends on what the person defines "life." Most people define people as animals whos concoiusness and traits are based off neurological and gentic processess (to which science has only begun to understand). Likewise science assumes that the universe was made completely randomly because of limited understanding (uncertainity principle, etc) and this there is no "meaning to life". II see people who think like this as incapable of make moral decisions in the first place. If you take out the point of life and its meaning, all that left are indeed selfish animals who do whatever they want simply because they can or its "their body, etc" This is actually due to education of Secular Humanist "values" in public education that has been going on for years.

My stance- This is a very tricky topic, I would have to say I am against abortion except in extraneous circumstances (such as rape, an 11-13 year old gril getting pregnant, etc) honestly I wish people were intelligent enough to simply use a condom if they dont want kids, it simply by complete lack of forethought and morals that so many abortions are needed in the first place (a condom breaking, bad birth control are exception). Common sense folks, please when making any decsion- make an informed one. If more people did that we would live in a better world. Remember, you cant have kids if you dont have sex, if you think it would be a hard decision then dont do it at all or at least spend some money to get some condoms... geez.

Honestly I dont think I could make a perfect decsion unless I knew when the fetus gets the soul (probably the moment before birth).

I think that we should look at issues wose than this those. Look how we treat other already living autonomous people everyday, its a deplorable situation. Wars over fuel and fewer and fwer natural rescources, wars in general.

You know what I think most people can agree on? Addressing the issues of the parents abandoning babies or throwing them away. That I think is MUCH worse, because without a doubt the baby is already alive and sentient.

Good day everyone, keep thinking

-Evan

Originally Posted by Tsukiomi

Much of this debate depends on what the person defines "life." Most people define people as animals whos concoiusness and traits are based off neurological and gentic processess (to which science has only begun to understand). Likewise science assumes that the universe was made completely randomly because of limited understanding (uncertainity principle, etc) and this there is no "meaning to life". II see people who think like this as incapable of make moral decisions in the first place. If you take out the point of life and its meaning, all that left are indeed selfish animals who do whatever they want simply because they can or its "their body, etc" This is actually due to education of Secular Humanist "values" in public education that has been going on for years.

This, right here. That is exactly right.

I think the real problem is that it has a large head and beady black eyes, which makes it CUTE. Just like people who will fight to the DEATH to defend an adorable kitty cat, but have no problems eating a lobster (which looks like a space mutant) or squashing a spider (which is ICKY, as opposed to CUTE). I seriously believe that if they didn't look so adorable with their tiny underdeveloped hands, that this would be much, much less of a debate.

Anyone who would be willing to force someone who's been raped to carry a child to term, but not willing to pay extra taxes to help her raise the child (or to sponsor more adoption clinics) is not very serious about the argument, and has only thought it through to the point where it agrees with their gut feeling. Beyond that, ALL the rationalization about when is or isn't it human, etc. are just pointless rationalizations. If you don't put your money where your mouth is, you are not pro-life, but merely anti-choice.

Originally Posted by Replicon

which makes it CUTE.

This is incorrect.
lol
Fetuses look creepy.

I am undecided in this respect, but I think its ok if the mothers health was in great jeopardy (Like making her crippled or dying) Other then that I have no real opinion on it.

i barely read any of these posts buuut

fetuses are the most creepiest demented thing i have ever seen

I guess if it is as you say, Ninja, I am entirely pro-choice.
Human life NEVER exists without some kind of choice by someone.

You could've posted that in the first page, you know. My first post was pretty clear.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

You could've posted that in the first page, you know. My first post was pretty clear.

I don't watch every post you make. Just happened to catch this one and figured I'd post what I felt about it.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I don't watch every post you make. Just happened to catch this one and figured I'd post what I felt about it.

Originally Posted by Marvo

Haha fuck off you massive cunt

And you're holding on to ill feelings because I ragged on you about that My little Pony thing. Get over it already :p

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

And you're holding on to ill feelings because I ragged on you about that My little Pony thing. Get over it already :p

Sorry for the insult, I just can't take it when people make such massively smug posts.

hah, wow, the poll results surprised me. Good to see such a staggering ratio of rational people.

Originally Posted by Mario92

hah, wow, the poll results surprised me. Good to see such a staggering ratio of rational people.

Yeah. What is it about this site that draws in mostly cool people?

Originally Posted by Heavy Sleeper

Yeah. What is it about this site that draws in mostly cool people?

You'd think a site about dreaming would draw in more crazy folks.

Obviously the opinion of people with no children has no merit in an actual discussion.

Originally Posted by Marvo

Obviously the opinion of people with no children has no merit in an actual discussion.

I'll do you one better: I AM a child, or was once. And I can safely say that if I had been aborted before the age of two, I wouldn't have given a damn.

Yea you're the only one.

It looks like a mini-John Merrick.

Hahahaha sorry no-name i just had to click.