Thread: Should we strive to suffer?

Originally Posted by Wayfaerer

Not the suffering, the obstacle that caused suffering and provided a challenge to overcome.

Even the suffering itself can be a catalyst for transformation. If you suffer enough, you learn from it.

My definition of suffering is resistance to what is. If you do this enough you realize that it causes you anguish, that any mental suffering, any anger or disapointment you have you create yourself. You are resisting what is, you are holding back instead of living life fully. From this realization you can live your life as fully as you can, not taking things for granted.

But of course, it would be better if you just started doing that now instead of causing yourself suffering.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Simply moving does nothing for us unless it's somehow difficult or challenging. I don't get a sense of accomplishment from walking up a flight of stairs, but I do from climbing a mountain (obstacle).

That's because you do it everyday and it becomes routine. Do you wake up every morning with wonder in your eyes over the image of the sun rising?

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

That's because you do it everyday and it becomes routine. Do you wake up every morning with wonder in your eyes over the image of the sun rising?

Sometimes. And sometimes I'm filled with wonder and amazement because it's rainy and grey. Or the world is blanketed in snow. I suppose it's just easier to realize the constant wonder of the world when you see it in a new way (as you suggested).

Hah! And sometimes it helps that a troll pops in and forces us to examine our statements and ideas more deeply/ allows the conversation to move on when it could have just ended. So thanks for stomping on our ideas Somii!!

Now GTFO!!

...but








I am the hero

Going through hard stuff doesn't make you more mature, it can but it doesn't have to and just because you haven't had their experiences it doesn't make you less of a person. It's childish to want suffering for respect or admiration, I didn't realize this for a long time. I'm surrounded by people who have gone through Hell, there broken, it's sad.

This thread has been on my mind.

Somii, first off - heroes don't stomp on ideas!!

No, but seriously... I totally agree that it's about gaining experience, rather than suffering. Unless you mean suffering in the Buddhist way, which really means simply annoyances, not as major as what we normally mean by suffering. And as Laughing Man suggested above, experiences don't need to be major departures from our daily lives. IE - you can gain a lot of perspective by traveling - but travel doesn't have to mean another country or another state. I love to get on my bike every now and then right before evening sets in and the sky turns all deep blue and glowing, and ride around town looking for streets or neighborhoods I've never seen before just to have the experience. Sometimes I find dull boring places, sometimes I discover hidden wonderlands of landscape and architecture like little secret gardens hidden right in plain sight.

One day I was laying on the floor playing with my dog and suddenly ralized how utterly different the house looks from that level than from the 6 foot high level I'm used to... it made me think about the space and volumes of the house in a different way, and in fact sort of re-connected me with childhood in a way, because probably the last time I had seen a house from laying on the floor I was a kid playing on the carpet. I stayed there for a long time experiencing that and it felt amazing.

To gain experience we can change our surroundings (travel on large or small scale, get a new job... ) or change the way we perceive our surroundings (mind-altering drugs, meditation, shift perspective as in laying on the floor etc... ).

I'm not saying these are the only ways, they're just probably some of the simplest ways.

From what I've read over the years, it is my opinion that a degree of suffering is good. Just think: what if you had lived a life completely of any unhappiness or discomfort? It is doubtful that such a life would instill empathy for those who experience true suffering. It is also doubtful that such a life would instill a need to provide for oneself or create things.

Yes, we're all agreed on that of course. But you haven't really addressed the actual question - do you feel we should go out of our way to experience suffering if it isn't necessary? Expose ourselves to starvation or disease or poverty or drug addiction simply to experience the suffering in an effort to make ourselves better people?

Or do you feel that most people will experience enough suffering in their lives that it's not necessary to seek out more?

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Sometimes. And sometimes I'm filled with wonder and amazement because it's rainy and grey. Or the world is blanketed in snow. I suppose it's just easier to realize the constant wonder of the world when you see it in a new way (as you suggested).

Hah! And sometimes it helps that a troll pops in and forces us to examine our statements and ideas more deeply/ allows the conversation to move on when it could have just ended. So thanks for stomping on our ideas Somii!!

Now GTFO!!

Everyone has introspective moments. Plato stated that the unexamined life isn't worth living. Perhaps its some kind of mechanism that we have inside of us where we are jogged into reinterpretating our surrounding environment in order bring freshness to the mundane or to bring out emotion for the simple things.

Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

From what I've read over the years, it is my opinion that a degree of suffering is good. Just think: what if you had lived a life completely of any unhappiness or discomfort? It is doubtful that such a life would instill empathy for those who experience true suffering. It is also doubtful that such a life would instill a need to provide for oneself or create things.

Well you would know what unhappiness is because in your happiness you would learn the presence of happiness (obviously) but the absence of happiness would still be open to experience. You would be able to conceptualize it, perhaps you would call it by something other then what we call "unhappiness." I think empathy would be possible too but I don't know if you would understand what it is.

I wouldn't say strive to suffer. But if you feel you need to in a way, do something such as donating your time or money to a good cause. This way you are actually helping others out at your expense.

Originally Posted by Zoj

I wouldn't say strive to suffer. But if you feel you need to in a way, do something such as donating your time or money to a good cause. This way you are actually helping others out at your expense.

So, you're implying that charity work causes suffering? I AGREE

Suffering can often be a source of growth, but as someone said, it can also be self-inflicted, self pity, which leads nowhere.

So if we can have suffering without growth, which seems fairly obvious to me, then is it possible to have growth without suffering? That seems to be the question.

I think it is possible to work to create difficulties and challenges that create growth, until a point is reached where one begins to enjoy challenge. At that point suffering is no longer an absolute necessity for growth and one does not need to seek out suffering. In fact suffering as an end to itself, usually winds up feeding the ego. I see so many people who think they are important because they suffer and the one thing they could not bear to suffer is giving up on their importance.

Suffering is a catalyst of growth but it is not the only catalyst. The problem with suffering is that is happens subconsciously. The real challenge as I see it is to create conscious efforts that force us to go against our routines and habits, at that point growth is happening and our capacity for enjoying the process grows as well. That kind of conscious challenge will take you further than mere suffering.

Even the Full Metal jacket example is only part of the story - I've even been in the military and I can say for certain that the outer toughness that comes from being on a battlefield is skin-deep, it is not real growth and maturity. Although it is true that such people have a keen insight into humanity's darker side and an ability to quickly size up situations and react with calm in the face of distress, they can be quite childish and sqeamish in other situations that they are unaccustomed to. I wish more of America's young people understood that, the military in no way is going to make you "be all you can be." That's something you have to do for yourself.

I like what Stoned Ape said - you suffer because you resist what is. Finally you learn from your suffering and start seeing what is. If you keep striving to see what is, there is no need to keep suffering.

Originally Posted by Somii

So, you're implying that charity work causes suffering? I AGREE

What a selfish and weak minded attitude. It clearly costs you something to help others out. Time, money, etc. But in doing so you are alleviating much suffering.

And you also gain from this, the experience that people were talking about on the first page. You can develop a wider world view. Become more empathic and compassionate. You experience actively alleviating someone's pain, which is a great feeling. You can also learn and develop skills in the process, cooking, cleaning, building, etc.

Originally Posted by StonedApe

What a selfish and weak minded attitude. It clearly costs you something to help others out. Time, money, etc. But in doing so you are alleviating much suffering.

And you also gain from this, the experience that people were talking about on the first page. You can develop a wider world view. Become more empathic and compassionate. You experience actively alleviating someone's pain, which is a great feeling. You can also learn and develop skills in the process, cooking, cleaning, building, etc.

Ah, did I hurt your feelings? Maybe you're weak minded too? Brothers!

No, you just presented a[nother] rather unthoughtful idea.

Originally Posted by StonedApe

No, you just presented a[nother] rather unthoughtful idea.

What was the 1st unthoughtful idea brutha?

It's hard to tell, there've been so many. But I think it was when you said that morality was a joke in the Vegetarianism thread. Unless that wasn't you, I really don't keep track of specific users posts.

Originally Posted by StonedApe

It's hard to tell, there've been so many. But I think it was when you said that morality was a joke in the Vegetarianism thread. Unless that wasn't you, I really don't keep track of specific users posts.

What about it? It was me, and speaking of that thread, I had recently posted there as a response to one of the past guys debating me about it. Looking back, he seemed confused, so I'd thought I'd tie lose ends - charity work. So, give me an example of these 'many' unthoughtful ideas, and please, don't use the mentioned example, because it seems you didn't comprehend neither. This should be an experience of growth for you

(You are out of your league and I'm toying with you)

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha. Youu so funny ssoommii.

I'm not going to waste my time bringing up past examples of bad posts you've made. But if you'd like to enlighten me on how morality is a joke I'd be delighted. Though we should probably start a new thread on the subject rather than going farther off topic in this one.

Anyways, there was no way you were gonna find an 'unthoughtful idea' brutha ,seeing how such a thing couldn't exist.

It does. There is a difference between unthoughtful and thoughtless. Do you understand the idea of thoughtfulness? It means not just that there is thought, but that there is much thought and quality of thought.

From Google:
thought·ful

adjective /ˈTHôtfəl/ 

Absorbed in or involving thought
- brows drawn together in thoughtful consideration

Showing consideration for the needs of other people
- he was attentive and thoughtful
- how very thoughtful of you!

Showing careful consideration or attention
- her work is thoughtful and provocative

For example, you presented the idea that charity work causes suffering. Now it was probably just a really bad joke rather than a serious statement, but would you describe this idea as thoughtful(If it's too difficult for you to be self critical, consider the idea that the earth is flat)? Was it born out of consideration for others? Did it require careful consideration or attention? Or was it just a thought. Not all thoughts are thoughtful, clearly. And the ones that aren't can be described as unthoughtful.

You better not waste your breath any longer Stoned, Somii has slumbered for the past year in this forum and now he has woken up to troll.

Originally Posted by Unelias

You better not waste your breath any longer Stoned, Somii has slumbered for the past year in this forum and now he has woken up to troll.

There goes that troll claim again..(ok, I am 6/8 hero, 1/8 troll, and my mom says I got some native american in there) Really though, if you disagree with someone's ideas with a bias towards them, calling them a troll is not the way to go, yo, and one could look at you as trolling me, G. If you're confident and would like to debate about something 'genuine,' then let me know, even though your chances of winning are low. Who knows, maybe you'll grow, into a better person, yo. ( where's my record deal at??)

Anyway, I gave up on Stoneape. He seemed desperate to prove something branching further off topic.

Now, back on topic.


Suffering as a cause to become a 'better' person seems to be a ridiculous idea. It then follows, that the deterministic outlook of suffering to be a catalyst of betterness, which is implied as a cause, should seem to be a ridiculous idea to me, as it does. There should be plenty of examples in one's life to see that the presence of suffering has not always been associated with 'betterness', thus refuting any silly notion of this subjective idea as ridiculous.

If anything, 'suffering' and 'better' should be better defined in a context we can all agree on. I recommend the version of 'better' noted in one of my former post in this thread. In any case, this thread probably won't reach the objective level :]