Troops in Iraq will be home by Christmas

**ThePreserver** · 10-21-2011 06:44 PM

Obama announces full American military withdrawal from Iraq | The Ticket - Yahoo! News

About 9 years and over 100,000 casualties too late, but it's a step.

1 country down, 138 to go.

**Descensus** · 10-21-2011 06:45 PM

I'll believe it when I see it.

**ThePreserver** · 10-21-2011 06:51 PM

I have to have a little optimism about it. Of course we will still have bases there but we can finally stop murdering innocent civilians with our bombs.

**louie54** · 10-21-2011 08:06 PM

I was just thinking about this yesterday. I remembered a couple of years ago, Obama said he would have the troops home sometime by the end of 2011 and I thought "2011? That's a long ass time from now" and now it's practically here and now I'm wondering if it will happen.

**IndieAnthias** · 10-21-2011 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

I'll believe it when I see it.

I'm mostly this^ but also, wouldn't it be political suicide to not pull through with it now?

**cmind** · 10-21-2011 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by IndieAnthias

I'm mostly this^ but also, wouldn't it be political suicide to not pull through with it now?

Not necessarily. The die hard dems will vote for him regardless of what he does. But if a majority of independents think that staying in the war is better than what he will frame as "running away" (he controls the language), then it might be better for him politically to stay in the war.

**IndieAnthias** · 10-21-2011 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by cmind

Not necessarily. The die hard dems will vote for him regardless of what he does. But if a majority of independents think that staying in the war is better than what he will frame as "running away" (he controls the language), then it might be better for him politically to stay in the war.

I agree but I think that was more true before the press release. He was pretty clear in his language. If he fails to do what he said, that's one potent sound bite in the hands of any given opponent.

**Original Poster** · 10-21-2011 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by cmind

Not necessarily. The die hard dems will vote for him regardless of what he does. But if a majority of independents think that staying in the war is better than what he will frame as "running away" (he controls the language), then it might be better for him politically to stay in the war.

What the fuck is a diehard dem? Democrats are the political party for everyone who isn't a republican. I'm about as leftwing as it comes on this forum and I wouldn't re-elect that corporatist pig if he ended the war in Afghanistan too.

The fact is, most of obama's votes are going to come from the moderates in this country who are scared shitless of the GOP's insane antics. The far left will abandon him, just like he abandoned them.

**Descensus** · 10-21-2011 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

What the fuck is a diehard dem? Democrats are the political party for everyone who isn't a republican.

Except for all the other ones

I'm about as leftwing as it comes on this forum and I wouldn't re-elect that corporatist pig if he ended the war in Afghanistan too.

The fact is, most of obama's votes are going to come from the moderates in this country who are scared shitless of the GOP's insane antics. The far left will abandon him, just like he abandoned them.

I think his point may be related to how democrats treated Bush and how they treat Obama. They were perfectly happy to oppose Bush's foreign policy while Republicans were in power, but a significant portion of them have strangely remained silent as Obama essentially continued with Bush's foreign policy. Hell a few of them took the extra step to justify his actions.

**Original Poster** · 10-21-2011 09:18 PM

But that's a two way street, when bush was in office people were calling anti-government protesting treasonous. Now it's common place to see people calling for Obama's assassination.

Most democrats excuse Obama by saying he inherited the war, which is true. As far as condoning his behavior... I haven't seen much of that. I have noticed strange silence but that's just the political pendulum at work. Any criticism against Obama is praise for his (much crazier) opposition. People are so fucking thankful he's not Bush he got a nobel peace prize simply for not being Bush. I mean come on.

And as far as everyone else goes, let me rephrase. The democrats is the organized party of everybody else. They have no core values except "Look at those assholes over there with their racism and theocratic agenda"

**IndieAnthias** · 10-21-2011 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

What the fuck is a diehard dem?

I thought the same thing, but then again, I'm from Texas.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

he got a nobel peace prize simply for not being Bush.

Hahahaha that is LITERALLY true.

**cmind** · 10-21-2011 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Except for all the other ones

I think his point may be related to how democrats treated Bush and how they treat Obama. They were perfectly happy to oppose Bush's foreign policy while Republicans were in power, but a significant portion of them have strangely remained silent as Obama essentially continued with Bush's foreign policy. Hell a few of them took the extra step to justify his actions.

This.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

But that's a two way street, when bush was in office people were calling anti-government protesting treasonous. Now it's common place to see people calling for Obama's assassination.

This is a false dichotomy. You deny the existence of people who opposed both Bush and Obama.

**Original Poster** · 10-21-2011 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by cmind

This.

This is a false dichotomy. You deny the existence of people who opposed both Bush and Obama.

So by claiming that republicans have been just as hypocritical as democrats when the pendulum swings, I deny my own existence?

**ThePreserver** · 10-22-2011 02:29 AM

This may sound a bit... harsh, but do you really think that the average voter is going to take a real deep look at political motives and what's REALLY happening behind the scenes, and only after fully surveying all political donations and attempts to grab voters, choose the next President?

The reality of it is, if the economy is still in the toilet in 12 months, Obama will probably not be re-elected. If things begin to pick up, unemployment decreases, and people are feeling more secure as if things have turned around, they will probably re-elect Obama. Elections revolve around the economy regardless of how much "control" a President has over the economy, which isn't very much aside from appointing the Fed Chairman and board.

**Original Poster** · 10-22-2011 02:53 AM

But that's not at all what voters are basing their decisions on. Democrats don't even like Obama, most of them. They just REALLY don't like the republicans. They don't blame the economic problems on Obama because he inherited this economic crisis. Though he didn't handle it well, you can also blame the republicans for stone-walling all his plans to get the economy moving again.

Meanwhile, Republicans blame Obama for EVERYTHING and even if the economy did turn around, it wouldn't matter because he's a "socialist."

**ThePreserver** · 10-22-2011 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

But that's not at all what voters are basing their decisions on. Democrats don't even like Obama, most of them. They just REALLY don't like the republicans. They don't blame the economic problems on Obama because he inherited this economic crisis. Though he didn't handle it well, you can also blame the republicans for stone-walling all his plans to get the economy moving again.

Meanwhile, Republicans blame Obama for EVERYTHING and even if the economy did turn around, it wouldn't matter because he's a "socialist."

I can agree with you on that stuff, but I mean people who AREN'T party affiliated OR well-informed (I know quite a few). They simply go and vote based on "how the country is going."

But for hardcore dems and republicans, yeah you're right. They vote for the lesser of the evils.

**cmind** · 10-22-2011 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

So by claiming that republicans have been just as hypocritical as democrats when the pendulum swings, I deny my own existence?

You tell me. When someone criticized the democrats for their hypocrisy on the war issue, you immediately started talking about hypocritical republicans...Why?... No one you're talking to is a republican...

**Original Poster** · 10-22-2011 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by cmind

You tell me. When someone criticized the democrats for their hypocrisy on the war issue, you immediately started talking about hypocritical republicans...Why?... No one you're talking to is a republican...

Because it's tit for tat, that's why. You're also not talking to a democrat. If people are going to bitch the democrats are hypocrites, ignoring the hypocrisy of republicans, then they're obviously conservative, and being just as hypocritical.

**tommo** · 10-22-2011 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by louie54

I was just thinking about this yesterday. I remembered a couple of years ago, Obama said he would have the troops home sometime by the end of 2011 and I thought "2011? That's a long ass time from now" and now it's practically here and now I'm wondering if it will happen.

I was thinking the exact same thing when I saw this on the news. That when he said that first, I was like "WTF!??!?!?????? 2011??????????? That's AGES away!"
Not it's here and it seems like a few months or something lol

**cmind** · 10-22-2011 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Because it's tit for tat, that's why. You're also not talking to a democrat. If people are going to bitch the democrats are hypocrites, ignoring the hypocrisy of republicans, then they're obviously conservative, and being just as hypocritical.

What you just said makes no goddamn sense. A democrat is president. It's obviously more pressing right now to be criticizing the democrats. When a republican gets in, guess what, I'll be criticizing him.

**Original Poster** · 10-22-2011 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by cmind

What you just said makes no goddamn sense. A democrat is president. It's obviously more pressing right now to be criticizing the democrats. When a republican gets in, guess what, I'll be criticizing him.

But that's completely unproductive, this isn't the UK, when someone takes office you can't blame everything on that party because the minority party still has power. Moreso, there's a little somerthing called cognitive dissonance. Firstly I was responding to Blueline criticizing the silence of democrats on war now that we have Obama. This is key in understanding why it's valuable to remember how quiet the republicans were when Bush took our freedoms with the patriot act, because now they claim Obama is reigning in authoritarianism with... health care.

Fox News, for instance, can't say one positive thing about Occupy Wallstreet while they did nothing but praise the Teaparty. How do you expect one side to stop being hypocritical when the other side is being so fucking hypocritical?

**cmind** · 10-22-2011 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

But that's completely unproductive, this isn't the UK, when someone takes office you can't blame everything on that party because the minority party still has power. Moreso, there's a little somerthing called cognitive dissonance. Firstly I was responding to Blueline criticizing the silence of democrats on war now that we have Obama. This is key in understanding why it's valuable to remember how quiet the republicans were when Bush took our freedoms with the patriot act, because now they claim Obama is reigning in authoritarianism with... health care.

Fox News, for instance, can't say one positive thing about Occupy Wallstreet while they did nothing but praise the Teaparty. How do you expect one side to stop being hypocritical when the other side is being so fucking hypocritical?

All I hear is "blah blah blah I'm a secret democrat but that makes everyone hate me so I cloud my politics in vague and incomprehensible gibberish". Talk to me when you understand the Non-Aggression Principle.

**Original Poster** · 10-22-2011 10:53 PM

If you aren't going to listen, then why do you bother to talk?

**Descensus** · 10-22-2011 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

But that's completely unproductive, this isn't the UK, when someone takes office you can't blame everything on that party because the minority party still has power. Moreso, there's a little somerthing called cognitive dissonance. Firstly I was responding to Blueline criticizing the silence of democrats on war now that we have Obama. This is key in understanding why it's valuable to remember how quiet the republicans were when Bush took our freedoms with the patriot act, because now they claim Obama is reigning in authoritarianism with... health care.

Fox News, for instance, can't say one positive thing about Occupy Wallstreet while they did nothing but praise the Teaparty. How do you expect one side to stop being hypocritical when the other side is being so fucking hypocritical?

You don't on the basis that they have no coherent set of principles to abide by.