Thread: Were Blacks better off under segregation?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

What is so wrong about being an ethnic nationalist anyway? Prior to about 1960-1970 is was the standard way of thinking for most people.

Actually, it mostly went out of style between 1939 and 1945, when it was demonstrated rather spectacularly to be incompatible with modernity. Race itself inevitably grows more fluid in a world where you can reach the other side of the globe inside of a day. Nationality likewise loses relevance in a globally interconnected economy. While neither concept has become entirely useless, both are much less useful than they were a century ago. If you're pinning a large part of your identity on race and/or nationality, you're at least a throwback, and arguably a live-action role-player.

You get odd reactions because the things you say would be better suited to the Early Industrial Age equivalent of a renaissance fair.

Originally Posted by Xei

he hasn't changed a single line after pages and pages of this stuff in the past.

Yet you still debate with certain unnamed people in the R&S forum despite this exact same problem. :/

Xei, people like you are what lead me to consider my current way of thinking, because all I ever see, ifspeople attacking the author or the opinion, rather than refuting the argument. I don't know why you would think i'm a troll, you've seen enough of my posts to know that this is my genuine opinion.

Oneironaut, I don't even need to back that first point up, if you can't see how anti-segregation people are these days, especially amongst the younger folk, tthen I guess I'll just have to let that on slide.

II don't really see a problem with the 1960 ish way of thinking, because thats basically how I think now, unless you would like to elaborate on what you mean by "discrminate/dehumanize/disregard on basis of color"

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Actually, it mostly went out of style between 1939 and 1945, when it was demonstrated rather spectacularly to be incompatible with modernity. Race itself inevitably grows more fluid in a world where you can reach the other side of the globe inside of a day. Nationality likewise loses relevance in a globally interconnected economy. While neither concept has become entirely useless, both are much less useful than they were a century ago. If you're pinning a large part of your identity on race and/or nationality, you're at least a throwback, and arguably a live-action role-player.

You get odd reactions because the things you say would be better suited to the Early Industrial Age equivalent of a renaissance fair.

The thing is though, you make it sound like some ultra-rare extreme opinion, but in reality Dreamviews is the only place where I get serious oposition. In the real world a large chunk of people seem at least partially of my viewpoint. And Black people in the real world, are more sympathetic towards my views on race/immigration etc, than White people on here.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

Oneironaut, I don't even need to back that first point up, if you can't see how anti-segregation people are these days, especially amongst the younger folk, tthen I guess I'll just have to let that on slide.

Now you've really lost me. What does the younger folk being 'anti-segregation' have to do with upholding your side of the argument? Or do you mean pro-segregation? Even if you mean the latter, I'm still going to have to call BS. Do I see people who are racist, and would much rather not have to deal with the other side? Yes. Will I probably always see that? Yes. Do I see more of them than I do people who are open-minded an accepting enough to side with intergration? No. Would I still see people who are pro-integration, if things were segregated again? Yes. Are you making any sort of point with these vague declations, that worth both ways? No. So stop it.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

II don't really see a problem with the 1960 ish way of thinking, because thats basically how I think now, unless you would like to elaborate on what you mean by "discrminate/dehumanize/disregard on basis of color"

No. I'll pass. Because if you can interpret discriminating against, dehumanizing or disregarding someone based on their race as being something virtuous, then I really don't think I have the stamina to try to change your entire, twisted world view.

As was said, you really aren't making any points outside of your vague assertion that "things would be 'better" and that "some people agree." You haven't gotten off of that train since the first post. Taking that together with your refusal to acknowledge how meaningless that actually is, I really do have no choice to agree that I'm wasting my time with this.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

And Black people in the real world, are more sympathetic towards my views on race/immigration etc, than White people on here

LMAO. 'Black people in the real world'? What does that even mean? Does that mean the limited spectrum of black people that you've come in contact with? Is that the 'real world' of black people you're talking about, that other people don't seem to know about?

Well I dont think most people in the 1960's 'dehumanized' people whatever that really means, I mean I will disregard someone as a potential partner due to race (or color as you incorrectly put it) but whats wrong with that, if you even mean that by disregarding? Jews Asians and black people all do this and I'm fine with that. I'm not sure what you mean by discrminiation either as that is such a blanket term rather than a specific act which I could then tell you if I thought it was acceptable or unaccpetable.

If you were trying to change my view then you were wasting your time, I mean im very open minded, but I think it's extremely unlikly that someone will change my view now.

Edit: By black people in the real world, I mean people I have actually physically spoken to about these issues, that must be over 200, of which probably 1/4 were hostile, 1/4 were sympathetic and about 1/2 didn't really have much of an opinion.

I think we could all do with a bit of dehumanization.

That being said...

Originally Posted by Thatperson

whats the problem?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

Well I dont think most people in the 1960's 'dehumanized' people whatever that really means

I think you're ill-informed. The same sentiment that kept blacks in slavery for all those years was still quite popular in many regions of America, in the 60's (and much of it lingers today). Yes, even in the 60's people were being killed and worse for their race. (And color is a colloquial term for race. I think you and I both know that.)

As far as disregarding, yes; many Jews, many Asians and many blacks do this. Not all of either of section does. Do I agree with it? No. If they want to disregard someone as a potential partner, that is fine. What I mean is more to disregard them in the sense that they are person of equal humanistic value, or they have just the same claim to individual rights as you have, based on their race. Discrimination, as blanket a term as it may be, means just what it says. I don't believe in discriminating against people based on their race. I even have a slight distaste for 'affirmative action' in that I don't like that people are excluded from something because of their race, even if it's to level the playing field - although I recognize a reasonable purpose for it. But when it comes to employment, affection, respect, admiration, socialization and possibly any other possible ways of being prejudice against something based on their race, I think it's an archaic, ignorant and somewhat cowardly way to view the world.

And now, I wasn't necessarily trying to 'change your view' - merely to give you something else to think about. However, it seems that the stance you are clinging to is so half-baked, and based primarily on an emotional bias than a significant range of perspective, even the chances of that seem a bit slim. In any case, your sentiment is not uncommon (if that's what you want to hear), however I believe it's far from 'right'.

Whites in 2011 are being killed because of their race, I've been spat at, physically assulted, threatened, and received death threats for being white, but at least it's only that for now, incidently all of this occured after I became of this viewpoint, so you can't really say it was because of emotional bias that i switched from Liberal to Nationalist.

I obviously don't agree that physically or verbally attacking people due to race is acceptable, and I won't pre judge people due to race, although the discrminiation card is played so much that not all cases of discrminiation are unacceptable. I mean If i wanna buy a house in the white neighbourhood, for the sole reason that it is the white neighbourhood, thats fine, no?

I won't say much because other's have already made most of the points that I would. All I really have to say is that if you honestly believe someone of the stuff you write about (as opposed to just trying to play some sort of rhetorical hypothetical "Thatperson") you must get most of your info about the world second hand, or worse. As Juroara already mentioned, all of the communities that I've ever lived in that were racially mixed had no racial tension at all, and the only times I've been somewhere where I felt like there were racial tensions was in places where races are highly segregated into different neighborhoods, and typically because the neighborhoods that were predominantly black were also the poorer part of town.

Well I cant speak for the towns you've visited but I have a lot of First hand experience of England at least, and It's probably worse in France, Germany and Netherlands. Everything I say I genuinely believe, Thatperson is just some username I registered 4 years ago, I'm not a troll. As i mentioend previous 73% of people surveyed said they wouldn't want the UK to become minority white, that itself speak volumes about how race is something of importance to msot people, whether they show it on the surface or hide it.

One need only to look at South Africa and Rhodesia to see the results of segregation. It can never work. Seriously, if you are interested I would read up on the history of these countries; very fascinating, but ultimately depressing as hell.

That said, I used to have respect for the former maturity of this forum, but the blatant lack of some of you making any effort to restrain your eagerness to attack actually depresses me. Is it comforting? If ideas cannot be discussed respectfully, especially thorny issues, then what's the point? I remember now why I hate the internet. Have fun with your contest.

Bye.

In general younger people are a lot less racist than older people. Which makes sense because as time passes people integrate even more. Especially in this age of globalization, all borders have basically disappeared and culturals are mixing more than ever.

Also you can't really compare England with the US. England is like 85% English from Britain, and has always had low immigration. England like many countries around the world that has had low immigration and thus little in the way of mixing between the culturals are always more 'aware' of races and culturals and less understanding of them.

In the US and countries that historically been in border areas tend to have a lot more mixing of groups and a lot better understanding. There is no dominate cultural in the US.

Take a look at this website.

Ancestry of U.S. Population by Rank — Infoplease.com

You will notice that the largest group is people who consider them self German but its only 15%. That 15% is a tiny fraction of the 85% of people in Britain who say they are British. And if you look all the groups are really small percentages, because the US is really mixed. So you can't compare Britain to the US in this regard.

Modern South Africa and Modern Zimbabwe don't work now! South africa didn't work under apartheid and it doesn't work now under multi-racialism. I look to South africa and fear what the US and Europe may become in 50-70 years. To people who see nothing wrong with white's becoming 10% in Europe/US, i simply say look at south africa today.

The thing about US ancestry is, people will often call themselves 'German-American' is they have a s ingle gret great grandparent from germany. The differences are negligable at best, all European Americans are virtually indistinguishable.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

Well most of the people i've spoken to about race issues (these are the people that I dont know their viewpoint prior to speaking to them) are in california, some in alabama, and some in montana, and virtually all agree with me to an extent.

let me guess.. stormfront?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

Your analogy with multiracial societies and families is irrelevant....

It's one of the most relevant and beautiful analogies I've read in a while, actually.

Originally Posted by IndieAnthias

let me guess.. stormfront?

Well ALL of the people I have spoke to on stormfront agree with my viewpoint on this issue. As I said I was referring to the people whom I didn't know their view beforehand (ie not from stormfront)

Originally Posted by Thatperson

incidently all of this occured after I became of this viewpoint, so you can't really say it was because of emotional bias that i switched from Liberal to Nationalist.

It's interesting that it occurs to you that bad experiences might lead to bias, but you don't consider that bias might lead to negative experiences. Racial bias (and the sheer weight you place on race constitutes racial bias, even if you "love chinks") tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, as it inclines reasonable people of all ethnicities to avoid you, and bigots of all ethnicities to confront you.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

The thing about US ancestry is, people will often call themselves 'German-American' is they have a s ingle gret great grandparent from germany. The differences are negligable at best, all European Americans are virtually indistinguishable.

Well, no, as a matter of fact they are not, at least not in terms of the one factor that makes race/ethnicity relevant in the first place: socio-economics. While the differences aren't as stark as black and white, an inordinate proportion of the wealth in this country is still in the hands of people with predominantly Anglo Saxon and/or German ancestry and no non-Western-European blood. The less 'blue-blood' you are, the more likely it is that you're poor. In particular, the epithet 'white trash' is almost solely applied to Americans descended from first-wave British minority immigrants (Welsh, Irish) mixed with second-wave European (Irish, Italian, German) and some Native American. Convincing those people that they share a racial identity with, say, nearly every holder of high office in this country until very recently, is nothing but a political maneuver of dividing the lower class against itself.

I would be surprised if you are not of a generationally impoverished, ex-serf bloodline yourself, having nevertheless convinced yourself that you're on the same 'team' as the queen and the bankers, while your former Lords and Ladies are all too happy to hold you and the Muslims both at arm's length and watch you snap at each other.

I probably do come from 'ex-serf' stock. I don't know what on earth made you think that I see myself on the same team as the Queen and the Bankers, I suppose what your reffering to is the 'white elite' as a whole but I definatly don't see myself on the same team as them. As much as I would like it for the UK to be ruled by a white person, I'd rather the government to be composed of black people who support White Nationalism, than what we have today. Which is barely even a 'white' elite anyway.

Have you achieved anything in your life other than being born with pale skin?

If I was a bookie, I'd offer odds of about 125/1 that your next post will be on topic, and not contain a personal attack on me.

Yes, of course I have achieved many things like vritually everyone, what a stupid and irrelevant question.

Edit: Have YOU actually achieved anything other than the prize for Dreamviews most off topic member of 2011 XD

It simply seems likely to me that if you spend so much energy on maintaining your sense of 'pride' in something as meaningless as skin colour, you can't have much else to be proud of.

I'm not sure if you are trolling with that post, but surely you are aware that race =/= Skin colour. I don't spend lots of time maintaining my sense of pride in what you describe as white skin.

As i edited in my last post, have YOU achieved anything in your life?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

I probably do come from 'ex-serf' stock. I don't know what on earth made you think that I see myself on the same team as the Queen and the Bankers, I suppose what your reffering to is the 'white elite' as a whole but I definatly don't see myself on the same team as them. As much as I would like it for the UK to be ruled by a white person, I'd rather the government to be composed of black people who support White Nationalism, than what we have today. Which is barely even a 'white' elite anyway.

The point is that you almost certainly have more in common with other generationally impoverished British citizens and, indeed, people around the world of a similar socio-economic standing, than you have with other people you consider white or English. Attempting solidarity on the basis of complexion and ancestry doesn't serve you, and in fact distracts you from advancing any of your real interests, as well as making you toxic to society. Your position is very useful, however, to the least scrupulous of politicians, agitators and full-blown terrorists, regardless of whether they're for or against your particular color or creed.

Segregation is not the answer to racial strife. You, and your counterparts of other colors, wising up would have a lot more practical impact.

not at all, the whole idea of communism was based on the assumption that people are divided more by class than race, I feel I have more in common with everyone from the long term unemployed to judges and solictors than someone of the same socio economic background from another race. I'll admit that at the very top (0.5% or less) the elite are so far up their own arse that they probably can't relate to me, but at that stage they are often mongrels anyway.