Vision Quest

I'm not sure exactly what I believe in anymore.
I had a deep religious conversation with my son yesterday, so intellectually, I believe in the Bible and in (more specifically) the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses.
But purely on a spiritual/emotional (?) level, I'm drawn to different paths.
Such beliefs cannot co-exist within me. I've tried for years.

So, to discover more about myself, I want to go on a Vision Quest (which I also think of as "Spirit" Quest so forgive me if I slip and use both terms without thinking lol).

But I really don't know what that entails. How is it different from camping or some other such activity? Is it the fasting?

I'm always by myself as it is. My kids make appearances throughout the day and I have to communicate with others on a daily basis, but that's for their sake, not mine.
I have no problem with solitude.

But I do bore easily. I've not been "alone" with my thoughts in an extremely long time. There are other distractions- namely, Hulu and video games. But I'll crochet or read books etc in favor of stillness. I don't like being completely idle. I don't meditate. I don't even pray anymore.

What can I except? What do I do? Is the time I spend alone meant to be idle time? I've read confusing/conflicting info about that. Some say you're suppose to walk (pretty much) all day because you're also suppose to push yourself to your limits.

I'm not worried about shelter or food. I'll venture out with nothing except my cellphone (for emergencies IF I can find reception) a first aid kit, a hatchet and water.
I'm going to try to be gone for 2 days. How much water should I bring?
Do I make a camp?

I'm planning on going to the woods around my hubby's "farm". He alone has 83 acres of mostly thick woods, some cliffs, caves a stream (which is usually dry). But his acres is just the tiny portion of the connecting wilderness.

Bears are rare as are mountain lions but wild dogs could be a problem. I've walked those woods in the past and I've never been aware of any dangerous animals however. But I've never been in the woods at night.
In truth, I'll find a tree to sleep in :)

Another thing: I will be utterly alone. My husband would NOT support such a venture. I literally have NO friends. There will be NO safety net for me.
I cannot afford to hire a guide.

But, as I already said, I am somewhat familiar with those woods. And for my first time out, I don't think I'll venture very far.

As for my health:
I have a sleeping disorder. I either have un-diagnosed Narcolepsy or my Sleep Apnea/Restless Leg Syndrome has gotten worse to the point I am always sleep deprived. I could sleep all day without Caffeine (and now Nuvigil). If I'm uncomfortable or majorly anxious, I fall asleep.

I take anti-anxiety meds (Celexa and Wellbutrin) but I can easily go without them for several days (as is the case right now because I've not had the money to pick up a new script). I also take supplements (D3, B-50 Complex, Calcium, Cranberry, Green Tea, Potassium). But, again, I can go without those if I must.
And if fasting is part of the Vision Quest, then it is a must because taking meds on an empty stomach makes me very ill.

I'm out of shape physically, but I can still hike and climb trees :) I'll just be really sore afterward lol.
My blood pressure is fine but my pulse is often outrageous (often 90 while resting). I have no heart problems that I'm aware of though.
No problems with sugar, though I have a tendency toward hypoglycemia.

I was wanting to take a psychodelic (sp) while on my quest, but I realize it's too unwise. Especially seeing how I've never taken one before and it will be my first time alone in the woods and I have no safety net.

Any advice, links, general information? Anything people can share with me would be MOST appreciated!!!

**FEEL FREE to move this to a more appropriate area. I was unsure of where to put it. This quest is mostly one of reflection, self-reliance, cleansing (from tobacco, caffeine) and self-discovery.**

A vision quest without a psychedelic drug is like going to a concert without music. Totally pointless.

Also, you don't need to go into the woods. A vision quest can be done from the safety of your bedroom, or any other place. Doesn't matter.

I'd suggest going on a practice run, of an afternoon, evening, and night. Especially if you've never been in the woods at night before. I would strongly recommend against the use of psychedelics until you know how they affect you (though you seem to know this). If you can't get to sleep, that'd be the perfect time to meditate, to commune with nature and synchronize the internal (your thoughts and internally-arisen feelings) with the external (your sensory experiences). Star-gazing is fun, too (the stars haven't changed their positions appreciably since the rise of man). As you (slowly) hike around, find places or patterns/arrangements or creatures that you feel a connection to: a stream with musically-flowing water, an out-of-place boulder, a batch of lichen-covered tree trunks, a mated pair of birds, a dandelion in the midst of going to seed. Describe the connection, and try to realize why it's important to you, why you were drawn to it in the first place.

I've never gone on an official 'quest.' But I've walked upwards of 20 miles in a day, and I think about stuff as I go.

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Originally Posted by Abra

I would strongly recommend against the use of psychedelics until you know how they affect you (though you seem to know this).

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And how is she supposed to find out how they affect her? The farmer's almanac?

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Originally Posted by cmind

And how is she supposed to find out how they affect her? The farmer's almanac?

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You try them in a familiar, comfortable environment (one where you have access to food, water, tiolet, bed/couch, and in Zhaylin's case, anti-anxiety medications). You have a sitter whom you trust and feel good around. From what Zhaylin described of her vision quest and woodland experience, not in the woods, alone, without remedial contingencies. That's how.

rofl CMind. That's how I felt at first too. I really did not want to do one without the other. But it would be irresponsible at this point. Especially my first time in the woods, alone, at night, with no safety net.
If I ever get ahold of psychedelics, I'll use them in the safety of my home first to see how I react to them.

And I am very happy to say that I HAVE potentially gotten ahold of a mind altering substance. My hubby's ex-wife is a wonder with trees and flowers. We picked up his daughter from his exes house and I was praising her green thumb and asking questions about one of her trees and about cuttings and transplanting trees etc. She had just started a plant and gave it to me. The plant is a type of Angel Trumpet tree- the pods of which are related to Dutura (sp). Now I just need to take care of the tree, get it to grow and flower and hope it drops pods :banana:

I told my hubby that I'm going to the Farm for three days to detox and that hopefully, I'll come back nicotine free. I told my sons the whole truth however. I'm bringing my youngest son to the Farm with me. He'll clean and take care of the place while I set off on my journey. My oldest son is staying home and I've already instructed him to let my hubby know the true nature of my trip if I'm not back by midnight on Wednesday so hubby can call the cavalry :D

There are isolated and scattered thunderstorms forecast for Tuesday and Wednesday but I'm not waiting on the weather. My mom used to always tell me "Shit don't melt" :cackle: and I've carried that with me my whole life. Rain doesn't bother me. And the woods are so thick and cliffs [jutting cliffs with overhangs] are so readily available that I'll be fine.

**Oh yeah.. I would love to go on said quest within the comfort of my home, but that's not reasonable. There are way too many distractions. Between my kids, pets and the internet, I'd never get any soul searching done.

Oh boy... I strongly advise against the use of Datura. It contains nasty substances that are not related to the classical psychedelics (lsd, shrooms, peyote, etc.). Its effects are more of a fevered delirium than a psychedelic trip. Bad mojo.

Well, doggone it!! :mad:

Guess I'll keep looking :D Thanks for the heads up.

My heart started pounding when you mentioned Datura. XD Yeah, DON'T do that. It's really, really dangerous. The dosages vary wildly and the hallucinogenic chemicals in it are highly toxic and will often leave you with lasting damage to both your brain and heart, among other things (like eyes). The visions were also be totally meaningless and not helpful at all; they'll often contain sexual or violent themes, and will most likely be horrifying from start to finish. Your anxiety would mess with you soooo bad too, and afterward it would probably remain much worse than normal.

Just in case you're wondering what the trip is like, as cmind said, it's not at all psychedelic like morning glories or mimosa hostilis, or any of the more traditional ones. The hallucinations are similar to taking ~40-50 Benadryl (diphenhydramine) pills. No no. :whyohwhy:

I repeat: DOGGONE it!! lol :bang: I now have something within my reach and it's worthless :furious:

My anxiety is really physical only. Things don't "scare" me. I think my anxiety may actually be a form of sensory overload. Crowds bother me but only because there's so much emotion and chaos. I mean, I worry about stuff but it's all practical like raising kids, having enough money etc.
I'm a good/kind-hearted person, not at all prone to paranoia or thoughts/fears of persecution.
Do I still need to be wary of bad trips? (No matter what the drug may be?)

I also have a very skeptical/dismissive attitude about being under the influence. (True or not) I think people act like sluts, goofballs, violent, whatever when they're under the influence because such behavior is almost expected and it gives people an excuse to act out (subconsciously or otherwise). I've been extremely drunk and extremely high in my lifetime but I never acted contrary to my nature. If anything, I become more contemplative.
I'm also aware of my inner workings, motives etc. Like, if I'm in a bad mood for seemingly no reason, I ask myself WTF then think on it. I examine the factors- meds, diet, interactions etc.
Because of all of that part of me thinks I wont have any notable experience while tripping.
Are any of those beliefs true though lol?

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

I'm a good/kind-hearted person, not at all prone to paranoia or thoughts/fears of persecution.
Do I still need to be wary of bad trips? (No matter what the drug may be?)

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Well, let's assume that we restrict ourselves to true psychedelics (because that's where I have experience). Chances are, if you're on medication, that means that you have some emotional issues that WILL come out in a trip. People say that bad trips are uncommon, but they really aren't. I've tripped a few times myself and I've never had a trip that didn't go bad at some point.

However, I have a perhaps controversial view on this subject because I personally think that a bad trip is what you should be aiming for (but not with Datura!). A bad psychedelic trip will lead to true healing in the months and years following it, although in the short run it could mess you up pretty bad. In my example, a really horrible trip caused me to quit taking all the meds I was on for depression and anxiety, which was tough for a while, but it lead to me overcoming a lot of my issues and no longer needing meds. But if you have kids depending on you, it's a tough call.

YMMV

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

I also have a very skeptical/dismissive attitude about being under the influence. (True or not) I think people act like sluts, goofballs, violent, whatever when they're under the influence because such behavior is almost expected and it gives people an excuse to act out (subconsciously or otherwise). I've been extremely drunk and extremely high in my lifetime but I never acted contrary to my nature. If anything, I become more contemplative.

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Yes, alcohol seems to bring out a bad side in some people. But trust me, psychedelics are NOTHING like alcohol.

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

I'm also aware of my inner workings, motives etc. Like, if I'm in a bad mood for seemingly no reason, I ask myself WTF then think on it. I examine the factors- meds, diet, interactions etc.
Because of all of that part of me thinks I wont have any notable experience while tripping.
Are any of those beliefs true though lol?

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That's good that you introspect about your feelings. If everyone was able to do that then the world would be a much better place.

But yes, you will absolutely 100% guaranteed no question have experiences while tripping. As long as you dose appropriately, there's no way you won't have experiences. This isn't like weed where it's a choice of whether or not to let it in; this stuff (shrooms, lsd, etc.) will grab you and not let go.

Both of your anxiety medication could interact (possibly reducing the effect, possibly becoming toxic) with a psychedelic, so make sure you do some proper research on interactions when you've settled on a substance. It wouldn't hurt to post the substance here either, and ask us to double check.

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

Do I still need to be wary of bad trips? (No matter what the drug may be?)

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From what I've read you should always be prepared for bad trips, but that is not the same as worrying about them. But I'd definitely spend a few hours reading about various ways of handling bad trips, so that if it does happen it won't freak you out.

The Balance provides, the Balance protects. Trust the Balance, and trust yourself. Good bye, and good luck on your journey

Zhaylin,

Erowid is a great resource for substances of any kind. When deciding the substance of your choice, that would be a good place to research effects, dosages, and read about other people's experiences. Shrooms, I think, are the best place to start for first time psychedelic users, especially for a vision quest.

I second what khh said, and don't worry about a bad trip, but be prepared for it. To facilitate a good trip, its all about set and setting. Have the trip in your home, set aside a room where you will feel really comfortable. I like to have candles, incense, and my favorite music. (Having art supplies on hand is always fun, too :) ) Make sure to have a sitter who is someone you really trust, feel comfortable with, and understands your goals with the vision quest. Set your intentions on what you hope to learn before you trip, as well.

When you decide which psychedelic you would like to experiment with, try just putting your intention out into the universe and maybe it will just come your way when you're ready. There is a certain hallucinogen I've been wanting to try for a long time now, but never actively looked for it. A few weeks ago, someone just gave it to me for free at a concert!

You're a brave explorer and I respect your resolve in doing this. I'm glad you're able to get some good advice from somewhere, even if it is just a silly internet forum. I like the idea of a practice run, and perhapse planning on combining all the elements you have in mind in the future (the trip into nature and the psychadelics) once you are a bit more comfortable and experienced with them by themselves, in turn. Good luck.

Thank you all for the advice and Link :)
I'll definitely look up side effects and take precautions before trying any drugs. The possible seems less and less possible however.
And there will be no practice run for me :?

My hubby can be overly protective (usually, rightfully so lol such as in this case). He knows I'm going to the Farm for three days but he thinks it's only to ween myself off cigarettes (which I AM going to do).
I have *literally* no friends. The only people I talk to is my kids, my hubby, and my shrink (once every other week)... and my parents etc maybe on a monthly basis.
And then, of course, there are the good people of DV, but I can't really carry you guys out into the woods with me :D

I have an extremely restrictive budget. If I succeed in quitting smoking, I'll have more money to play with though.
I don't know of any dealers personally. And I'm too cautious to seek anyone out- what if they're actually a cop? Or what if they give me crap or something laced and dangerous?
Which is why the Mimosa is so appealing to me. It's been my favorite flower since I was 13 years old or so. And then I discovered a couple/few years back about it's use as a psychedelic. But not by itself, it turns out :crying:

Regarding my Quest, however, I think I'll be fine. I'll stay close to the property line which is about a 30-60 minute hike. If I get sick or spooked, I can easily leave. If I fall and break something and can't leave, I'll be easy to find.
I'm going to bring plenty of water but if hunger begins to debilitate me, the earth offers sustenance I can easily identify and find. I'll also bring some glucose tablets for emergency use only.
I'm intimately familiar with hunger pangs and solitude though so I should be a-okay in those regards.

It's very silly but the one thing I'm worried about being without are my hand wipes :cackle: I'm not a germaphobe in the traditional sense. I just LOATHE the feeling of my hands and feet feeling dirty or sticky. I ALWAYS carry a hand wipe. I'm more anxious about being without those than I am anything else including my smokes. And I smoke about 2 packs a day :roll:

I'll be your friend, Zhaylin!

Let's see...you could probably get Salvia from a local smoke shop. According to wiki, it's legal in WV. Price wise, it would be $20-30 for a goodly amount.

I'll stop talking about drugs now.

Something to consider... iodine tablets are much easier to carry than water.

hehe, why thank you CMind :smitten: I'll definitely have to look into that!! By smoke shop, do you mean a Tobacco/Cigarette store? We have a couple in town but I've never seen anything unusual in them (like Salvia). I'll probably have to go to a bigger city, but it's definitely do-able!!

Indie, yeah. I do have to look into that more before I leave. A person typically needs to drink what- a gallon of a water a day? More if they're active or if it's very hot? I've already been trying to envision myself carrying 3 gallons into the woods :lol: It's supposed to rain on at least one of those days so I could always catch and drink some rain water too. There is a creek/stream in the area, but it's usually dried out this time of year. What water I'll find in it will likely be stagnant and not at all drinkable.
But in any case, I wont die of thirst either if worse comes to worse.
Is it cheating to bring gum or tictacs with me? I'm often partially dehydrated. I tend to stupidly ignore my thirst and just suck on a mint for dry mouth.

Oh yeah, is it also cheating to bring toilet paper lol? Ahhhh, the comforts of civilization.... :roll:
:D

Smoke shop is what I call them, it may not be the correct term. But basically it's a shop that sells smoking paraphernalia like pipes, bongs, papers, that kind of stuff. They usually have salvia hidden behind the counter if you ask for it. To smoke salvia you're also going to need a pipe or bong (if you're strapped for cash you can make a bong out of a plastic bottle and some tin foil) and you'll need a lighter, preferably one with a blue flame. Salvia apparently requires a fairly hot flame to smoke. Although you may get away with a regular lighter, I'm not sure.

The process of smoking the salvia is a little involved so you should look that up on youtube or something. It's easy to find instructions for that sort of thing.

Also, if you want to go another route and you can get your hands on an actual salvia plant, you can chew up the leaves and let them sit in your mouth for like 15 minutes then spit them out. This gives a longer but less intense trip, or so they say. The salvia plant, or at the very least the seeds, can be mail ordered. Contrary to popular belief, there's actually not much risk in ordering things in the mail. But now I'm rambling.

Salvia is an incredibly intense experience. I wouldn't recommend letting ones spiritual beliefs ride on the outcome of a salvia trip. That's incredibly bad advice. I don't see what drugs have to do with this at all.

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Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Salvia is an incredibly intense experience. I wouldn't recommend letting ones spiritual beliefs ride on the outcome of a salvia trip. That's incredibly bad advice. I don't see what drugs have to do with this at all.

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Intensity is the whole point. As I already said, a bad trip is a good thing in the long run. If you don't want a bad trip, then don't take the medicine! Because that's what we're talking about here, medicine. You don't take medicine to "get high".

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

I'm not sure exactly what I believe in anymore.
I had a deep religious conversation with my son yesterday, so intellectually, I believe in the Bible and in (more specifically) the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses.
But purely on a spiritual/emotional (?) level, I'm drawn to different paths.
Such beliefs cannot co-exist within me. I've tried for years.

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I think that says it all. You have your intellect struggling against your heart. Might as well get the unpleasantries out of the way and be honest. As I know that you know (you've said it before), you're intellect is not the sharpest tool in the shed. Your heart on the other hand seems to be made of gold. You are one of the kindest and gentlest souls that I've ever run across online or in the real world. The relationship with the divine/transcendant is one of the most important things in our life as it colors every other aspect of our lives. There are all kinds of people saying all kinds of things, for all kinds of reasons, to come between us and our own, personal, direct relationship with transcendance. It's important that we use our best tools to cut through that and see existence for what it is.

I think that your heart is your best tool here, not your intellect. So I would go with that.

And the fact that you are even considering using hallucingens to go on a vision quest indicates that, deep down, you've already abondoned your faith in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Good riddance to it as well. Enjoy your new freedom.

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Originally Posted by cmind

Intensity is the whole point. As I already said, a bad trip is a good thing in the long run. If you don't want a bad trip, then don't take the medicine! Because that's what we're talking about here, medicine. You don't take medicine to "get high".

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When somebody is at this kind of spiritual cross-roads, it's important to think/feel things out with a calm mind/heart. The introduction of a drug (please spare me the hippie pretenses) as powerful as salvia adds an element of randomness that will more likely than not be harmful. Especially when the subconcious grasps for symbols and interpretations of said symbols that come from a long background of one particular religious system and the person in question has deep feelings of guilt and inadequacy stemming from said religion. That's how the mind works on trips. I think that tripping is great but not in this context.

cmind,
Have you done Salvia before?
As someone who has done Salvia multiple times, I would have to agree PhilosopherStoned.

Not only is Salvia incredibly intense, it can also be extremely terrifying. While this experience has its place, I would not recommend it to someone who has never experienced psychedelics before. It sounds to me like Zhaylin is looking to for an introspective, reflective journey. I can not see how Salvia affords this. The trip is so short, how can any reflection take place? Smoking salvia fully engulfs you in an alien world, than yanks you back out before you can even process what is happening. Plus, the amount of terror you can feel under Salvia's influence is easier to deal with if you are already familiar with psychedelic journeys.

Zhaylin,
If you research Salvia and still feel this is the entheogen you would like to start with, I would be happy to give you more advice on it. (First of all, smoking it really isn't that involved or complicated and you can use a regular lighter.) Again, you do need a sober sitter (or at least an experienced psychedelic user taking it with you) with this or any other hallucinogen, especially your first time. As for your earlier worry about purchasing something "laced", this really shouldn't be a problem for psilocybin or LSD. Psilocybin would be safer, because you can easily take a very small amount, then take more later if you want to increase your trip. LSD is riskier, you can't be sure what your getting in a dose, and one tab can easily be too much for someone. If you are planning on doing your vision quest alone, it might be better to leave psychedelics out of the mix this time. I'm not trying to discourage you from the vision quest at all, but I worry about the safety of your plan. Even if your planning on fasting, you should still bring enough food just in case. Instead of pure fasting, a better idea might be to eat light and simple, more of like a cleanse. Everyone is different, and hunger certainly affects me more than most people since I am hypoglycemic, but I think hunger could actually impair your quest. As for water, bring more than you think you will need. 3 gallons a day sounds reasonable to me. Is there no running water where you are going? If this is the case, also factor in bathing and cleaning for water use. I'm no wilderness expert, but I do camp often, and have been camping in extreme desert environments far from civilization. Feel free to ask me any questions on what supplies you should bring.

Another thought, what about trying meditation or shamanic drumming during this quest? You can easily find tapes of shamanic drumming online as well as guides on what to do while listening to the drumming.

Also, one more link:
IAmShaman This site has Salvia, Dream Herbs, Morning Glory Seeds, etc. should you choose to go that route.

Sorry, if this all came off as rambling...

Thank you for the laugh and the kind words PhilosopherStoned as well as your experiences and advice :)

Thank you as well, Hermine :)
This first trip will definitely be drug free. Not even any meds or cigarettes :eek:

I can't bring any food with me. I am very undisciplined. If I have anything readily available, I will eat it. I also wanted to bring my DSi to take pictures, but I know I'd be too tempted to play the games that are installed on it. So I'll be leaving it behind as well.

I'm not taking any clothes. I'm going to wear a flowing skirt I am extremely comfortable it. When I walk or climb etc, I tie the edges around my waste so I don't trip on it.
I'll wear leggings underneath it. For a shirt, I'll be wearing a tank top and something long over it. I'll also bring my Scottevest, which is a match to this Travel Jacket, Hidden Pockets, Revolution Plus, Lightweight:SCOTTEVEST, INC./SeV one, but lighter.
I own no other shoes than my sandals Walmart.com: Earth Spirit - Women's Juniper Sling Back Sandals: Shoes. So I'll wear those with socks and bring extra socks in case my feet get wet.

The area I'll be traveling doesn't have much overgrowth (the trees are too thick). I won't have to worry about stepping into weeds full of snakes :eek: When I'm climbing, I have to take my shoes off anyhow no matter what they are.

I'm not too worried about bathing or washing my hair. I will take my hand wipes though. I don't want to make myself too uncomfortable :lol: and I'll also bring a roll of toilet paper.

I'll have glucose tablets in case my blood sugar bottoms out dangerously. My first aid kit will contain a sewing kit, bandages, super glue.
I need to remember to buy a flashlight.

The creek/river will be low or dry in most areas. I wont drink the water but if I find myself starving to death, I can easily find frogs and crawfish there. It seems locusts are out this year and if not locusts, there are large grasshoppers :barf:
And again, I wont be horribly far from help.

Water is going to be a pain to carry, but it's a necessary evil I guess. I don't know how I survived when I ran away when about 14 years old. I was gone for at least 10 days. I bought a large bottle of Coke on my way to the spot in the woods I stayed in. I also bought Seltzer water by mistake but refused to drink it after one sip lol. I did eat a cactus for the water by the end. All I had to eat were strawberry gummies and Crackle candy bars lol But it was still one of the best memories of my life. I slept on the branch of a tree the first night, then built a camouflaged lean-to for the rest of my adventure. I lived in Florida then but the temps dropped to the 30's-40's and I refused to build a fire because a major road was pretty much right beside me.
If I could do it then, for that long, with the little rations I had, I can definitely do it now. (That's what I keep telling myself anyhow).

2 nights and 3 days is as long as this quest will last. But I wont be beside a major road this time, with a military base on the other side. No matter how rare and unlikely, I could encounter bears, mountain lions, wild dogs, snakes. Ah yes... I have a bear bell. I'll dig that out and attach it to my bag... I should also buy mosquito repellent. I guess I should also bring a strong antihistamine just in case I react badly to a sting or bite. I'm not allergic to anything that I know, but neither was my step-dad and now he has to carry a kit with him for bee stings...

What else? A lighter in a ziplock bag... a compass with my attached whistle.. any other suggestion?

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

A lighter in a ziplock bag... a compass with my attached whistle.. any other suggestion?

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I would suggest a good multitool, but I was looking and they're kind of expensive (like $100). Failing that, a good hunting knife.

Also, flint. A lighter is great until it runs out of butane because you thought it had more, but flint lasts forever.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll be sure to pick up a cheaper version :D

But I'm not going to be going for a while. Too much has happened over the last couple of day (which I've written about- at length- in the Rant and Rave thread).
I guess one good thing about it, though, is that I have more time to prepare and get the things I should really have.

If you're not in very good shape, I would recommend against any serious fasting out in the woods or really doing anything that you can do to induce visions out in the woods, at least if you're gonna be by yourself. It's tricky enough business if you are in shape and you know what you're doing.

There is no set way you have to do it. You just go on a quest and use some kind of technique to induce visions. From what I understand you learned this from a guru or elder of some kind. You can definitely find techniques on the internet, but I highly recommend that you experiment with them before going on your quest if you really want to have any results. In order to get visions without drugs I know of 2 options: breathing techniques and putting yourself under enough stress that it happens. Breathing techniques take a long time to master. Personally I've never been able to intentionally induce any visions, they've only happened because I was too tired while meditating and started dreaming with my eyes open. The stress route is a pretty rough thing to do and I wouldn't recomend it unless you learn a lot more about wilderness survival. You really aren't gonna have much of a vision quest your first time going out in the woods alone.

But really you can have just as spiritually profound visions by just tapping into the potential of dreams. Dreams and visions are basically the same thing, the brain just doing slightly different things.

Many thanks for your input and suggestions!

Is going out into the woods to fast REALLY that dangerous of an undertaking? My kids were concerned mostly about that part too. I told them though, that I could even survive most of that time without water. It's only going to be for 2 nights and 3 days. As I mentioned previously, I'm not unfamiliar with hunger. I wouldn't eat for a day or 2 when my gallbladder was at its worst. I did that on several occasions.
They also seemed to forget that I could leave at any time (unless an accident prevented it). If I became weak or too uncomfortable, I could just call it quits.

They also think I'm an idiot who would end up getting lost lol. That would be a very real possibility if I was exploring. But I was going to remain in familiar territory.

As for dreams... I always try to look for meaning in them. But most of them just seem to be a random collection of events brought on by things I've seen throughout the week.
I canceled my trip, primarily, because I ran over and killed one of our kittens. I slept several times after that and each time, I've dreamed of death or torture/pain. I didn't want that event muddying/tainting my thoughts while alone.

I receive "insights" from such dreams and others, but it's all mundane stuff- realizing that I'm entering depression or that I'm stressed though trying to deny it- things of that nature.
Most of my dreams also have to do with my religious (not spiritual) beliefs. I "witness" to people a lot in my dreams. Maybe that is more telling than I gave credit.
"The spirit is strong but the flesh is weak". Perhaps my religiosity IS who I am but it's such a tough road to walk that I would like to discard it for an easier path....

You've given me lots to think about :)

That honestly sounds like camping. I understand though. Comforts are difficult to give up. The vision quest has almost lost itself to novelty in our modern times. I've obtained just as much spiritual growth from sitting in my apartment with a tea kettle full of rose-hips and 30 rock awaiting the play button on Netflix as I have from hiking and spending a night in the wilderness.

But the enticing concept of initiation remains within our culture, undaunted by the modernization of our culture. We need something deeper. We've killed all our holidays with commercialization and specter, empty grasps upon old mysticism laid in glass like collectibles from our mysterious history.

I would recommend Burning Man. I think a Vision Quest requires an Initiator of some sort, and if you can find one that's great but it typically requires foregoing your predistilled beliefs in favor of the Shaman's. Burning Man requires no such release. It requires a different release entirely, the one I believe you are searching for. Rainbow would also be adequate, and many other festivals offered throughout the U.S. But I believe to truly find what it seems you're searching for, you need a festival. I enjoy camping immensely, mostly because I enjoy being by myself. But the greatest spiritual growth I have found has been through collectives of other spiritually minded people in situations where Release is the Point. I always recommend drugs, as many as you can get, an especially DMT. But if you're unready for that type of initiation then I would at least suggest putting yourself around the sorts that have been toiling with ideas like Initiation for decades. I intend to be at Burning Man 2013, maybe I'll see you there. If not, maybe I'll see you at Rainbow, or some other Spiritual Collective.

"That honestly sounds like camping."
Yeah, but Vision Quest sounds much more exciting :chuckle: and it also kind of primes the mind for expectation.
I would love to go to one of the festivals you mentioned. But I'm basically "home" bound. My hubby would never emotionally or financially support such a venture. I'm too passive to push the issue.
Whatever I do, I have to do it alone.

While I would like to forego all comforts and just enter the woods with the clothes on my back... it just sounds to irresponsible...

part of Initiation is learning trust. It's not supposed to be easy or "responsible" based on our social understanding of the word. It's meant to teach you that you have everything you need inside you, or something.

Rainbow is free, by the way, though I'm not sure where it is this year it's definitely something worth looking into to see when it might be located close by.

Lol This reminds me of the time I was set on doing a "vision" or "spirit" quest when I was younger. My plan was to live in the woods for a week or two just to think about existence in general. I never did it because I wanted to bring mushrooms but couldn't get a hold of them lol.

Some weed might be nice if you like it. That's not likely to trip your mind up too much (or at least not too intensely) and I find it helps my thoughts a lot as long as I'm not trying to do math. Also, you thanked me for a laugh? Did I crack a joke? I can't remember.

Yes... you reminded me that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed :lol:

Ugh... I hate weed. It makes me feel car sick even if I'm not moving.
I LOVE N20 but our local head shop was shut down and I don't want to start using that stuff again anyhow. It's not supposed to be habit forming, but I'm addicted to it. I've not touched it since 1999/2000 when I realized I was taking myself to the edge of death on it :eek:

I've never really been into the drug scene. When I was a stripper I did 2 rows of what was supposed to be heroin. It mellowed me out in an extreme way- I was sluggish and my head was very foggy- and as I sat at the bar, my brain asked "How would you like to be this way for the rest of your life?" And that cured me of that.

Now it's just caffeine for me :roll:

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

Yes... you reminded me that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed :lol:

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I didn't say that you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, I said that your intellectisn't! The point being to trust your heart above your intellect. Your heart is sharper than most people's and you should be proud of that. They are two distinct tools and they are both useful. I think that you should sharpen your intellect but the quality of your heart is worthy of envy.

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Now it's just caffeine for me :roll:

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In my heart caffeine > alchohol > THC. I love caffeine!. You know it's true because when I'm busking with my ukulele, first I buy coffee, then I buy food, then I buy beer, then I buy weed. I should really change my user name one of these days.

hehee, you were just quoting what I myself have said. I wasn't at all offended, thus the laugh :)
Many thanks for your kind words :smitten:

What would you change your name too lol?

Ugh... I live on caffeine. I was taking 3 a day before Nuvigil. Now I take 1-2 WITH Nuvigil :roll:

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

Ugh... I live on caffeine. I was taking 3 a day before Nuvigil. Now I take 1-2 WITH Nuvigil :roll:

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Wow...

I can cure your anxiety problems in one sentence: stop taking so much goddamn caffeine. Seriously, that stuff causes anxiety AND increased cortisol, which is the stress hormone. Small amounts of caffeine are harmless and possibly for some people even beneficial, but you take way too much. Of course, you're an addict so you're not going to quit even to save yourself from your mental problems.

I often go for long periods of time without it. But then I sleep. And sleep. And sleep. And such was life before caffeine and the only reason why I started popping them to begin with.
I should have another sleep study done because my sleep apnea is probably much worse. I would probably benefit from one of those breathing machines. (My mom has to use one)
But those studies cost a lot of money and are royal pains in the butt lol

There's a lot of truth to what you said, but my hands are tied if I want any sort of productive life.

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

I often go for long periods of time without it. But then I sleep. And sleep. And sleep. And such was life before caffeine and the only reason why I started popping them to begin with.
I should have another sleep study done because my sleep apnea is probably much worse. I would probably benefit from one of those breathing machines. (My mom has to use one)
But those studies cost a lot of money and are royal pains in the butt lol

There's a lot of truth to what you said, but my hands are tied if I want any sort of productive life.

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This is why I can't stand addicts. They justify and justify and justify, and tell me I'm wrong because they're special and they really need the drug.

Here's how it works: you feel a week or two of acute withdrawals, and then for some period of time from a few weeks to maybe even a few months (if you're a raging addict and you quit cold turkey which I don't recommend) you might feel tired. Now I'm telling you that caffeine is directly causing you anxiety and stress, and you just brush me off completely. Look this stuff up yourself if you don't believe me. Wikipedia. Erowid. They'll all tell you the dangers of high caffeine.

I want you to feel better, but let me get this straight. You want to go on a vision quest that will be little more than an extended nature walk. You refuse to use any psychedelic drugs, which defeats the purpose. You refuse to quit caffeine even though you take dangerous amounts that contribute strongly to your anxiety. So basically you want your life to get better without you having to change a single thing about it. Have I left anything out?

:shrug:
:P
It is what it is. If I'm a caffeine addict, I'm okay with that so long as I'm a functioning addict. That gets on your nerves but I can't help that. It is a vicious cycle but I don't know of any other solutions unless you'd like to pay for my sleep study... and perhaps take it for me :D
I'm not brushing you off, I just don't see any other way.

My main problem with taking illegal drugs is simply acquiring them, which (as I've said) is why I was so interested in the Mimosa. It grows wild in a few places around here. I also don't want to be in the woods alone for my first trip.
As for my quest just being an extended nature walk... sometimes being alone with your thoughts and dreams is enough. Life is so busy, hectic and filled with so many distractions that I welcome the solitude.

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

It grows wild in a few places around here.

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The mimosa that you're intersted in is mimosa hostilis. This is a sub-tropical plant and does not grow in West Virginia. The plant growing in West Virginia is probably Albizia julibrissin Durazz. It does not contain DMT which, as I mentioned previously, probably wouldn't do to much good right now. On the whole the main purpose of hallucinigens is to have a good time looking at a pretty light show and then decide that what you thought was right anyway because you had this awesome "spiritual" experience because of this "medicine" that you took that just confirmed what you thought you knew anyways. Once there's a solid intellectual base in place with which to interpret the visions, then they might become (incredibly) useful. On the whole though, they're just another drug that happens to trigger the brain chemistry associated (but not synonymous) with legitimate spiritual experiences.

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

:shrug:
:P
It is what it is. If I'm a caffeine addict, I'm okay with that so long as I'm a functioning addict.

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You're the one complaining about anxiety. But whatever, enjoy your life.

Do me a favor Zhaylin and try not to read too much into what fuckheads say that approach issues with their own unwarranted bias.

PhilosopherStoned will belittle anything slightly related to hippy culture and act like there's nothing substantial related to any of it. And Cmind is just an asshole sittin atop a tower of shit he swears is pure ivory.

Caffeine is related to anxiety disorder, especially if you already have issues with anxiety. Caffeine can exacerbate these issues. It may be helpful to you to try a different remedy other than just quitting coffee cold turkey. There are many different kinds of energy supplements which don't have the same connection to anxiety that caffeine does.

DMT is a wonderful drug, but not for whatever steam PhilosopherStoned spewed out. It has nothing to do with realizing anything, or confirming what you thought you knew. Knowledge has nothing to do with DMT. LSD and Mushrooms can have an effect I would almost give philosopherstoned the benefit of the doubt of just misjudging, probably because of personal emotional wounds or bad experiences with certain people that don't know proper usage of the drugs. DMT has no such possibility of doing anything remotely close to what he was talking about, though. DMT destroys your previously held conceptions about reality, it does not confirm them. It teaches you the meaning of the word ineffable. It shakes you loose of presumption. It reveals what is, not what you want to be.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

And Cmind is just an asshole sittin atop a tower of shit he swears is pure ivory.

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Oooo it hurts so bad. It would be nice if you could point out an actual thing I said that you disagree with or find distasteful. Like, using quotes.

As for the other stuff you said, I agree. I like how you put it describing DMT (and I think the other classical psychs are ultimately very similar). Another way I would describe it is that it removes social constructs and behavioural norms that have become so ingrained that we mistake them for reality. It simply returns the mind to a childlike state that recognizes real reality and temporarily erases a lifetime of conditioning.

That being said, psychs can be taken too far where you actually 'overshoot' reality and start to make a new one. But that only happens with numerous repeated trips.

I think you have a point there. When you begin investing too many words in what you experience, you miss the target. Especially if you confuse these words for the truth they represent. To me DMT just gives you a glance at what is, which you could call God or the Mystery or whatever you like. But it's important to leave all connotations of such words behind. Acid and Mushrooms, on the other hand, have a far better ability to do what you suggested, which is to invent a bunch of trippy ideas and take them too seriously, taking them back with you and interpreting reality differently, based upon assumptions that are no better than the ones you had before and still just as intrinsically flawed if only because they're based on words or mental constructs.

And if you're curious, the reason I called you a fuck was for statements like these: "This is why I can't stand addicts."

I'd hate to break it to you, but you don't have Zhaylin figured out and you can't solve everyone's problems by stuffing them into a category and then filtering everything they say through the category you stuffed them in. You can help people by listening, taking their problem as unique, and being compassionate rather than judgmental. You don't help anyone with that approach. You're very attitude in the last several posts is exactly what every single book on the subject says you should NOT behave like when dealing with an addict.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

I'd hate to break it to you, but you don't have Zhaylin figured out and you can't solve everyone's problems by stuffing them into a category and then filtering everything they say through the category you stuffed them in. You can help people by listening, taking their problem as unique, and being compassionate rather than judgmental. You don't help anyone with that approach. You're very attitude in the last several posts is exactly what every single book on the subject says you should NOT behave like when dealing with an addict.

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I don't doubt that's what the books say. However, I've been addicted to many substances myself and I know exactly the kind of thought processes that perpetuate the addiction. I also know how I had to change my thinking to break addiction. As far as I'm concerned, treating addicts with nothing but love only reinforces the addiction paradigm in their subconscious mind.

I said be compassionate. That doesn't mean you have to condone a behavior. It's the way you label everyone away that irritates me. You've always done this, too. You've judged people's characters based on individual situations and then filtered everything they say through those judgments. This behavior has repeated itself in every thread you involve yourself in. It's always about stuffing whoever you're talking to into some category or another and then refusing to listen to them after that point. You stop conversing and start talking at people. You stop treating them like human beings and start treating them like whatever the fuck you think they are. You don't have to love someone's issue and condone it. Just treat them like a huyman being, and treat their situation like a unique one. Offer a little respect for people.

Sorry to get off topic, Zhaylin.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

I said be compassionate. That doesn't mean you have to condone a behavior. It's the way you label everyone away that irritates me. You've always done this, too. You've judged people's characters based on individual situations and then filtered everything they say through those judgments. This behavior has repeated itself in every thread you involve yourself in. It's always about stuffing whoever you're talking to into some category or another and then refusing to listen to them after that point. You stop conversing and start talking at people. You stop treating them like human beings and start treating them like whatever the fuck you think they are. You don't have to love someone's issue and condone it. Just treat them like a huyman being, and treat their situation like a unique one. Offer a little respect for people.

Sorry to get off topic, Zhaylin.

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Right now I'm stuffing you into the condescending holier-than-thou douchebag category. YOU think you're better than me, as evidenced by your ridiculous post. YOU are putting me in a box, inspired no doubt by some bad figure from your childhood. The irony in your post is palpable. Guess what, I'M a human being, and I am allowed to make judgments about people. If you don't like it, you can go fuck yourself, which I'm sure is a lifelong dream for you.

another shining moment in the history of Dream Views dialectic

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Originally Posted by cmind

Right now I'm stuffing you into the condescending holier-than-thou douchebag category. YOU think you're better than me, as evidenced by your ridiculous post. YOU are putting me in a box, inspired no doubt by some bad figure from your childhood. The irony in your post is palpable. Guess what, I'M a human being, and I am allowed to make judgments about people. If you don't like it, you can go fuck yourself, which I'm sure is a lifelong dream for you.

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I think there's a difference between me seeing hundreds of your posts and telling you not to judge people so quickly and you judging people after 1 post.

hehee, this thread took an unexpected turn but it's all good :D

And DOGGONE it about the Mimosa. It IS the Silk tree and not a true mimosa :bang: Oh well. It is what it is :lol:

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

PhilosopherStoned will belittle anything slightly related to hippy culture and act like there's nothing substantial related to any of it..

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This is actually an ad hominem attack. There are so few of them that I thought I'd point it out. The reason it's ad hominem is because you tried to say I was wrong based on some personality trait that I have rather than actually addressing my argument.

It's also wrong.

I love hippy music in case you haven't noticed. What I don't like is that hippies have no respect and piss all over everything as is evidenced by their constant butchering of science, Taoism and Buddhism.
I love hippy drugs. DMT is awesome. It doesn't contain an answer to spiritual questions though. I can tell you straight up it doesn't show you how anything "really" is, it's just the same underlaying reality interpreted through different mechanisms. That's all.

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Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

I can tell you straight up it doesn't show you how anything "really" is, it's just the same underlaying reality interpreted through different mechanisms. That's all.

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For my part, I don't think I disagree with you. We do know that a person's learned biases can shape their perceptions of the world, literally and figuratively. All I'm saying is that a drug like DMT can make a person see things in a different and potentially helpful way, just as getting in a car crash can make a person see things differently.

I realize you've been told already, but I would definitely agree against using datura, especially if you are out alone in the woods. Datura causes the same anticholinergic delirium and hallucinations that diphenhydramine (benadryl) does. Usually the trip is extremely confusing, unpleasant, and you will literally see people and things that are not there. There is nothing remotely spiritual about it, if you decided to take datura or diphenhydramine, it would likely be out of curiosity and because the trip is kind of interesting. Classic psychedelics, on the other hand, are very "spiritual". They leave you feeling like you've gained some sort of insight, and all the world just makes sense, everything is just... right. It's possible to have a bad trip on classic psychedelics, but I've never had the problem and I could never envision having a bad trip. So classic psychedelics on a camping trip seem like a possibly good idea, but NEVER datura or diphenhydramine. If you did happen to do either of those you'd probably find yourself scared shitless out in the woods all alone.

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Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

This is actually an ad hominem attack. There are so few of them that I thought I'd point it out. The reason it's ad hominem is because you tried to say I was wrong based on some personality trait that I have rather than actually addressing my argument.

It's also wrong.

I love hippy music in case you haven't noticed. What I don't like is that hippies have no respect and piss all over everything as is evidenced by their constant butchering of science, Taoism and Buddhism.
I love hippy drugs. DMT is awesome. It doesn't contain an answer to spiritual questions though. I can tell you straight up it doesn't show you how anything "really" is, it's just the same underlaying reality interpreted through different mechanisms. That's all.

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I don't believe you've ever done it, or it's been so long you've forgotten it, because your description is really off-base.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

I don't believe you've ever done it, or it's been so long you've forgotten it, because your description is really off-base.

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I've done it multiple times. Recently too. I can do it anytime I want because I live on Maui. Everything grows here. I know where I can go pick from a Banisteriopsis vine and I know where the Psychotria grows right next to it And I could get permission to pick it. Also, My mom owns a whole sale nursury which I grew up living/working on; my stepdad was a landscaper that gave me a dime for every plant I could ID on road trips; and my real dad is a landscaper/permaculturalist. So, unlike most dumb hippies (such as yourself) I actually know plants. Fuck, I even got training (on the North American east coast) as an herbalist. Know what plantain (a.k.a. "Whiteman's Footsteps") does? Quick, go check google. It's an antispetic and eating the seeds makes you smell bad to mosquitos.

So I know all about DMT from experience.

What I question is your spiritual maturity given the fact that you apparently believe that DMT shows you some "underlaying"reality".

@cmind. The car crash is a good analogy. Since Zhaylin is already seeing things in a different way, I don't think that she needs a car crash. If she was still a slave to biblical literalism, I might agree with you. She's not so she should take some time to settle into her new groove and then play around with that stuff if she wants to. It's really just a game though. Anything that can be done with drugs can be done better without them.

It's not that it shows you the underlying reality, but comparing the change in your perception of reality on DMT reveals the impermanence and irrational nature of this one. When you wake from a dream, you typically think "Now I'm in reality." DMT destroys your capacity to return and believe you've returned to something more real than what you experienced under its influence. This doesn't mean DMT's reality is more real than reality, but the ability to experience the world with DMT helps you to see through the veil.

It helps you understand that you're changing floors in an elevator, and the other worlds were no more fake than the one you returned to. That doesn't mean they're more real, either.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

It helps you understand that you're changing floors in an elevator, and the other worlds were no more fake than the one you returned to. That doesn't mean they're more real, either.

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Ok, this is obviously false. Altered states of consciousness are not new realities.

This whole thing is characteristic of hippies pissing on Buddhism to excuse having no respect for reality.

If I kill you in this reality, what happens in the other realities?
If I don't eat in this reality, but do in my dream realities, what happens?
If I steal your sack of weed but you don't see it happening, did I really steal it in your reality or just mine? Maybe it just "disappeared" in your reality.

The Shakyamuni said to not talk about what reality is but this is often misunderstood. Unless it affects your practice, it doesn't matter what the universe and the "things" in it are made out of. But knowing what reality is is essential. Reality is the medium through which sentient beings can influence each others existence. See what Rinzai thinks of that one.

There is only one and we all live in it and we better learn to accept that.

There are no "other worlds" that DMT takes you to from any practical practice because it's just not a userful concept. It is a useful concept if you want to conflate spirituality with drug induced fantasy/sci-fi concepts which most new-agers seem want to do. It's an incredibly useful concept for pretending to escape reality but I'd be very surpised to see a serious application of the concept for something useful.

Just because this one has different rules doesn't make it any more real. It's impermanent, therefore it's not "real." All the physical laws that run it were stitched into place through convenience and one day the stitching will fall apart.

I love salvia, but it has never been a spiritual exploration drug for me. It generally makes inanimate objects seem animate while giving me the perception that I am an inanimate object. It also makes bizarre creatures, usually muppets, do crazy stuff with the nature of reality, like try to take it apart. It twists and disorganizes my basic understandings of reality, such as up, down, inside, and outside. That's most of what it does, but some of its effects transcend description. It's highly fascinating, but not really enlightening. It's the drug version of a book of Rene Magritte paintings.

I have never done DMT, but I hear it is a lot like salvia. LSD has a lot of spiritual potential, but it can give you Hell as much as it can give you Heaven. It usually won't give you either. Psilocybin mushrooms can be really trippy and make you question reality and have some major introspection. They can also make you laugh your ass off at how absurd things seem. All of those are good for philosophical quests, but not necessarily spiritual quests.

Lucid dreaming is great for spiritual quests. It is mind-expanding, fascinating, perceptually versatile, controllable, safe, and immediately escapable. Whatever you are looking for in yourself, you can look for in a lucid dream and find it. I recommend that route.

Didn't even see this thread. You still going to do this Zhaylin?

Just wanted to respond to this:

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

I repeat: DOGGONE it!! lol :bang: I now have something within my reach and it's worthless :furious:

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You do not have something useless. Belladonna (I'm assuming you got a tree, from what you said. Which is Belladonna, not Datura) is a beautiful tree.
The flowers smell amazing and look incredible. It's an astoundingly alluring tree.

I almost got taken by it too a while ago hehe I was young and new nothing. I just happened upon it at the right time and my auntie told me that apparently some lady had one outside her window and the breeze blowing in the scent made her hallucinate.
I took some and smoked a tiny bit of flower petal and just got scared and stopped.

It's a powerful plant, but that's what makes it so interesting.

Probably don't use it, but just plant it in the garden.

Also you three talking about this is pretty hilarious to read.
Especially because at least 2 of the things I picked up on were just all of you disagreeing due to word choice.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I have never done DMT, but I hear it is a lot like salvia

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You got lied to

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

You got lied to

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I got most of my information from Terence McKenna. My understanding is that they both have the seeing crazy creatures element in common. I once saw them constantly morphing from an area of multi-dimensional reality. Also, both drugs turn a person's common understandings of the basic dimensional properties of reality on their heads. Beyond that, I don't know what they have in common.

If you've never done DMT it's far more difficult to point out how different they are, the only describable difference is that DMT leaves you with an incredible feeling of peace for the rest of the day while salvia has a jarring comedown that can often leave you feeling shaken and anti-social.

Both gave me a feeling of deja vu which created in me the belief that I was not exploring some strange realty but returning to somewhere I've been before and had forgotten about. It may just be a random side-effect of the chemical make-up of them, and I figured this about salvia for a long period of time until I tried DMT and realized there was so much more going on in the mind/universe than I even thought possible.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

Both gave me a feeling of deja vu which created in me the belief that I was not exploring some strange realty but returning to somewhere I've been before and had forgotten about. It may just be a random side-effect of the chemical make-up of them, and I figured this about salvia for a long period of time until I tried DMT and realized there was so much more going on in the mind/universe than I even thought possible.

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Probably so. I've gotten a weak feeling of returning to my "original mindstate" (best way I can describe it) on shrooms, like I was the "real me" again and the me I was before was... some how not. On acid I got the feeling of deja vu so strongly that what I was experiencing I thought I had already experienced before, like I was in a time loop or something. It was like I was simultaneously creating memories of what I was experiencing and remembering them, all the while still experiencing the... experience. I felt as though I could and was predicting everything that was about to happen next.

However, I realize this was an effect of the drug. There is no reason to believe I was stuck in a time loop or predicting the future, just like there is no reason to believe that the "reality" or "universe" you went to when you took DMT or salvia is in anyway real or that you had already been there before.

Of course it's real, it's all real.

Maybe the acid just tricked you into seeing the universe a different way than before. No reason to apply such literal ascriptions like predicting the future and being stuck in a time-loop. You perception changed, but your perception was not wrong.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

Of course it's real, it's all real.

Maybe the acid just tricked you into seeing the universe a different way than before. No reason to apply such literal ascriptions like predicting the future and being stuck in a time-loop. You perception changed, but your perception was not wrong.

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If I felt like 4 hours had past and only 4 minutes had, does that mean 4 hours actually passed? It seemed like it to my brain, but when I used a reality based time measurement tool (a clock), I was proven to be experiencing the passage of time falsely with respect to reality. Let's say, for the sake of argument I was reading the clock wrong or the specific clock I was using was wrong--I also had other, sober, people there that could confirm what time it really was. Therefore, my perception was wrong.

How about we drug Original Poster into a totally unconscious coma and rape him. When he wakes up, we can reassure him that the rape never happened because he doesn't remember it. After all, perception is reality, right?

My view, on the other hand, is that all human beings experience physical reality through psychosocial filters that they learned over the course of their life. No one experiences true reality, but we all experience useful approximations of reality (except schizos). DMT can shock the mind and temporarily erase some of the filters, giving a different approximation of reality, and most likely a closer one (after the trip, not during). So my experiences with psychedelics have shown me that there's exactly one real reality, and we all try to interact with it as best we can.

I suppose you could technically say all of our perceptions of reality are wrong because, although to a degree the perceptions can be accurate, they can never be very precise (while still maintaining a high degree of accuracy, of course). However, for all intents and purposes, the accuracy and preciseness with which the healthy and sober human mind is capable of is more than useful enough for communication purposes. It's pretty silly to try and argue that all we perceive is real because no one experiences an objective reality because to do so means you completely missed the point and meaning of the words "real" and "reality". There would be no need for distinction if reality were the same thing as one's perception of reality.

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Originally Posted by tommo

Also you three talking about this is pretty hilarious to read.
Especially because at least 2 of the things I picked up on were just all of you disagreeing due to word choice.

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I'd like to know what those two things are.

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Originally Posted by snoop

I suppose you could technically say all of our perceptions of reality are wrong because, although to a degree the perceptions can be accurate, they can never be very precise (while still maintaining a high degree of accuracy, of course). However, for all intents and purposes, the accuracy and preciseness with which the healthy and sober human mind is capable of is more than useful enough for communication purposes. It's pretty silly to try and argue that all we perceive is real because no one experiences an objective reality because to do so means you completely missed the point and meaning of the words "real" and "reality". There would be no need for distinction if reality were the same thing as one's perception of reality.

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English. It no make communicate good complex ideas.

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Originally Posted by snoop

If I felt like 4 hours had past and only 4 minutes had, does that mean 4 hours actually passed? It seemed like it to my brain, but when I used a reality based time measurement tool (a clock), I was proven to be experiencing the passage of time falsely with respect to reality. Let's say, for the sake of argument I was reading the clock wrong or the specific clock I was using was wrong--I also had other, sober, people there that could confirm what time it really was. Therefore, my perception was wrong.

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Clock time is based on measurements. Measurements do not always agree with perception, just because I see something 10 feet tall from 500 yards away doesn't mean it's only a centimeter tall. However, if a foot long measuring stick were compared next to him, in a good relative position, it would appear to be 1/10th of a centimeter tall. I am still able to measure, at this point my perception would ruin nothing more than my ability to communicate to appropriate measurements as I estimate them. It would not actually make them wrong. What we're talking about relativity, which brings me to my next response.

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Originally Posted by cmind

How about we drug Original Poster into a totally unconscious coma and rape him. When he wakes up, we can reassure him that the rape never happened because he doesn't remember it. After all, perception is reality, right?

My view, on the other hand, is that all human beings experience physical reality through psychosocial filters that they learned over the course of their life. No one experiences true reality, but we all experience useful approximations of reality (except schizos). DMT can shock the mind and temporarily erase some of the filters, giving a different approximation of reality, and most likely a closer one (after the trip, not during). So my experiences with psychedelics have shown me that there's exactly one real reality, and we all try to interact with it as best we can.

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The problem is if you believe that the objective reality is out of reach from the subjective mind, then you can't make a statement like that schizos don't experience a useful approximation of reality. You can't know what a useful approximation of reality is. It may be absolutely nothing like what you believe objective reality really is. What you're looking for is not a useful approximation of objective reality, you're simply looking for useful information to increase the probability of making a beneficial decision. Objective reality plays no part, except that the pursuit of objective reality tends to deliver more useful information.

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Originally Posted by snoop

I suppose you could technically say all of our perceptions of reality are wrong because, although to a degree the perceptions can be accurate, they can never be very precise (while still maintaining a high degree of accuracy, of course). However, for all intents and purposes, the accuracy and preciseness with which the healthy and sober human mind is capable of is more than useful enough for communication purposes. It's pretty silly to try and argue that all we perceive is real because no one experiences an objective reality because to do so means you completely missed the point and meaning of the words "real" and "reality". There would be no need for distinction if reality were the same thing as one's perception of reality.

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I think you're adding false pretenses to reality. What I gained through my experiences with DMT was nothing but useful and has positively shifted the way I see the world to such an extent I cannot possibly relate to someone who has not undergone the same experience. This is true for all my "trips" and all my experiences with dreaming, as well. As they say, Art lies in order to reveal the truth. There is sometimes more truth to a hallucination than to sober vision.

And speaking purely from my own logical conclusion, everything that passes through your perception is real, because there's nothing more real to compare it to. The only thing you could possibly claim to be "objective reality" is the gestalt of all perceptions in all of existence. Anything less is a deceit. We know nothing more than what our brains can tell us about the world, and if we believe there is nothing more to know except what our brains are telling us, then we are adding a pretense to reality that makes my statement incorrect. But I do not agree with that pretense. I do not believe reality needs to by synonymous with truth, and words like real and fake and true and false have lost their validity in my line of thinking. I can only use them now when I am trying to communicate effectively with someone who still thinks along those parameters.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

I do not believe reality needs to by synonymous with truth, and words like real and fake and true and false have lost their validity in my line of thinking. I can only use them now when I am trying to communicate effectively with someone who still thinks along those parameters.

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How nice of you to condescend to our level.

It's not just for your sake, it's simply easier sometimes to say "truth" rather than say "information which I believe increases my probability of making beneficial decisions" however without noting that difference the word truth carries an array of false connotations.

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Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

I'd like to know what those two things are.

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I'd have to read through all of them again. Cbf.