Thread: Vision Quest

I suppose you could technically say all of our perceptions of reality are wrong because, although to a degree the perceptions can be accurate, they can never be very precise (while still maintaining a high degree of accuracy, of course). However, for all intents and purposes, the accuracy and preciseness with which the healthy and sober human mind is capable of is more than useful enough for communication purposes. It's pretty silly to try and argue that all we perceive is real because no one experiences an objective reality because to do so means you completely missed the point and meaning of the words "real" and "reality". There would be no need for distinction if reality were the same thing as one's perception of reality.

Originally Posted by snoop

I suppose you could technically say all of our perceptions of reality are wrong because, although to a degree the perceptions can be accurate, they can never be very precise (while still maintaining a high degree of accuracy, of course). However, for all intents and purposes, the accuracy and preciseness with which the healthy and sober human mind is capable of is more than useful enough for communication purposes. It's pretty silly to try and argue that all we perceive is real because no one experiences an objective reality because to do so means you completely missed the point and meaning of the words "real" and "reality". There would be no need for distinction if reality were the same thing as one's perception of reality.

English. It no make communicate good complex ideas.

Originally Posted by snoop

If I felt like 4 hours had past and only 4 minutes had, does that mean 4 hours actually passed? It seemed like it to my brain, but when I used a reality based time measurement tool (a clock), I was proven to be experiencing the passage of time falsely with respect to reality. Let's say, for the sake of argument I was reading the clock wrong or the specific clock I was using was wrong--I also had other, sober, people there that could confirm what time it really was. Therefore, my perception was wrong.

Clock time is based on measurements. Measurements do not always agree with perception, just because I see something 10 feet tall from 500 yards away doesn't mean it's only a centimeter tall. However, if a foot long measuring stick were compared next to him, in a good relative position, it would appear to be 1/10th of a centimeter tall. I am still able to measure, at this point my perception would ruin nothing more than my ability to communicate to appropriate measurements as I estimate them. It would not actually make them wrong. What we're talking about relativity, which brings me to my next response.

Originally Posted by cmind

How about we drug Original Poster into a totally unconscious coma and rape him. When he wakes up, we can reassure him that the rape never happened because he doesn't remember it. After all, perception is reality, right?

My view, on the other hand, is that all human beings experience physical reality through psychosocial filters that they learned over the course of their life. No one experiences true reality, but we all experience useful approximations of reality (except schizos). DMT can shock the mind and temporarily erase some of the filters, giving a different approximation of reality, and most likely a closer one (after the trip, not during). So my experiences with psychedelics have shown me that there's exactly one real reality, and we all try to interact with it as best we can.

The problem is if you believe that the objective reality is out of reach from the subjective mind, then you can't make a statement like that schizos don't experience a useful approximation of reality. You can't know what a useful approximation of reality is. It may be absolutely nothing like what you believe objective reality really is. What you're looking for is not a useful approximation of objective reality, you're simply looking for useful information to increase the probability of making a beneficial decision. Objective reality plays no part, except that the pursuit of objective reality tends to deliver more useful information.

Originally Posted by snoop

I suppose you could technically say all of our perceptions of reality are wrong because, although to a degree the perceptions can be accurate, they can never be very precise (while still maintaining a high degree of accuracy, of course). However, for all intents and purposes, the accuracy and preciseness with which the healthy and sober human mind is capable of is more than useful enough for communication purposes. It's pretty silly to try and argue that all we perceive is real because no one experiences an objective reality because to do so means you completely missed the point and meaning of the words "real" and "reality". There would be no need for distinction if reality were the same thing as one's perception of reality.

I think you're adding false pretenses to reality. What I gained through my experiences with DMT was nothing but useful and has positively shifted the way I see the world to such an extent I cannot possibly relate to someone who has not undergone the same experience. This is true for all my "trips" and all my experiences with dreaming, as well. As they say, Art lies in order to reveal the truth. There is sometimes more truth to a hallucination than to sober vision.

And speaking purely from my own logical conclusion, everything that passes through your perception is real, because there's nothing more real to compare it to. The only thing you could possibly claim to be "objective reality" is the gestalt of all perceptions in all of existence. Anything less is a deceit. We know nothing more than what our brains can tell us about the world, and if we believe there is nothing more to know except what our brains are telling us, then we are adding a pretense to reality that makes my statement incorrect. But I do not agree with that pretense. I do not believe reality needs to by synonymous with truth, and words like real and fake and true and false have lost their validity in my line of thinking. I can only use them now when I am trying to communicate effectively with someone who still thinks along those parameters.

Originally Posted by Original Poster

I do not believe reality needs to by synonymous with truth, and words like real and fake and true and false have lost their validity in my line of thinking. I can only use them now when I am trying to communicate effectively with someone who still thinks along those parameters.

How nice of you to condescend to our level.