Thread: Vision Quest

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll be sure to pick up a cheaper version

But I'm not going to be going for a while. Too much has happened over the last couple of day (which I've written about- at length- in the Rant and Rave thread).
I guess one good thing about it, though, is that I have more time to prepare and get the things I should really have.

If you're not in very good shape, I would recommend against any serious fasting out in the woods or really doing anything that you can do to induce visions out in the woods, at least if you're gonna be by yourself. It's tricky enough business if you are in shape and you know what you're doing.

There is no set way you have to do it. You just go on a quest and use some kind of technique to induce visions. From what I understand you learned this from a guru or elder of some kind. You can definitely find techniques on the internet, but I highly recommend that you experiment with them before going on your quest if you really want to have any results. In order to get visions without drugs I know of 2 options: breathing techniques and putting yourself under enough stress that it happens. Breathing techniques take a long time to master. Personally I've never been able to intentionally induce any visions, they've only happened because I was too tired while meditating and started dreaming with my eyes open. The stress route is a pretty rough thing to do and I wouldn't recomend it unless you learn a lot more about wilderness survival. You really aren't gonna have much of a vision quest your first time going out in the woods alone.

But really you can have just as spiritually profound visions by just tapping into the potential of dreams. Dreams and visions are basically the same thing, the brain just doing slightly different things.

Many thanks for your input and suggestions!

Is going out into the woods to fast REALLY that dangerous of an undertaking? My kids were concerned mostly about that part too. I told them though, that I could even survive most of that time without water. It's only going to be for 2 nights and 3 days. As I mentioned previously, I'm not unfamiliar with hunger. I wouldn't eat for a day or 2 when my gallbladder was at its worst. I did that on several occasions.
They also seemed to forget that I could leave at any time (unless an accident prevented it). If I became weak or too uncomfortable, I could just call it quits.

They also think I'm an idiot who would end up getting lost lol. That would be a very real possibility if I was exploring. But I was going to remain in familiar territory.

As for dreams... I always try to look for meaning in them. But most of them just seem to be a random collection of events brought on by things I've seen throughout the week.
I canceled my trip, primarily, because I ran over and killed one of our kittens. I slept several times after that and each time, I've dreamed of death or torture/pain. I didn't want that event muddying/tainting my thoughts while alone.

I receive "insights" from such dreams and others, but it's all mundane stuff- realizing that I'm entering depression or that I'm stressed though trying to deny it- things of that nature.
Most of my dreams also have to do with my religious (not spiritual) beliefs. I "witness" to people a lot in my dreams. Maybe that is more telling than I gave credit.
"The spirit is strong but the flesh is weak". Perhaps my religiosity IS who I am but it's such a tough road to walk that I would like to discard it for an easier path....

You've given me lots to think about

That honestly sounds like camping. I understand though. Comforts are difficult to give up. The vision quest has almost lost itself to novelty in our modern times. I've obtained just as much spiritual growth from sitting in my apartment with a tea kettle full of rose-hips and 30 rock awaiting the play button on Netflix as I have from hiking and spending a night in the wilderness.

But the enticing concept of initiation remains within our culture, undaunted by the modernization of our culture. We need something deeper. We've killed all our holidays with commercialization and specter, empty grasps upon old mysticism laid in glass like collectibles from our mysterious history.

I would recommend Burning Man. I think a Vision Quest requires an Initiator of some sort, and if you can find one that's great but it typically requires foregoing your predistilled beliefs in favor of the Shaman's. Burning Man requires no such release. It requires a different release entirely, the one I believe you are searching for. Rainbow would also be adequate, and many other festivals offered throughout the U.S. But I believe to truly find what it seems you're searching for, you need a festival. I enjoy camping immensely, mostly because I enjoy being by myself. But the greatest spiritual growth I have found has been through collectives of other spiritually minded people in situations where Release is the Point. I always recommend drugs, as many as you can get, an especially DMT. But if you're unready for that type of initiation then I would at least suggest putting yourself around the sorts that have been toiling with ideas like Initiation for decades. I intend to be at Burning Man 2013, maybe I'll see you there. If not, maybe I'll see you at Rainbow, or some other Spiritual Collective.

"That honestly sounds like camping."
Yeah, but Vision Quest sounds much more exciting and it also kind of primes the mind for expectation.
I would love to go to one of the festivals you mentioned. But I'm basically "home" bound. My hubby would never emotionally or financially support such a venture. I'm too passive to push the issue.
Whatever I do, I have to do it alone.

While I would like to forego all comforts and just enter the woods with the clothes on my back... it just sounds to irresponsible...

part of Initiation is learning trust. It's not supposed to be easy or "responsible" based on our social understanding of the word. It's meant to teach you that you have everything you need inside you, or something.

Rainbow is free, by the way, though I'm not sure where it is this year it's definitely something worth looking into to see when it might be located close by.

Lol This reminds me of the time I was set on doing a "vision" or "spirit" quest when I was younger. My plan was to live in the woods for a week or two just to think about existence in general. I never did it because I wanted to bring mushrooms but couldn't get a hold of them lol.

Some weed might be nice if you like it. That's not likely to trip your mind up too much (or at least not too intensely) and I find it helps my thoughts a lot as long as I'm not trying to do math. Also, you thanked me for a laugh? Did I crack a joke? I can't remember.

Yes... you reminded me that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed

Ugh... I hate weed. It makes me feel car sick even if I'm not moving.
I LOVE N20 but our local head shop was shut down and I don't want to start using that stuff again anyhow. It's not supposed to be habit forming, but I'm addicted to it. I've not touched it since 1999/2000 when I realized I was taking myself to the edge of death on it

I've never really been into the drug scene. When I was a stripper I did 2 rows of what was supposed to be heroin. It mellowed me out in an extreme way- I was sluggish and my head was very foggy- and as I sat at the bar, my brain asked "How would you like to be this way for the rest of your life?" And that cured me of that.

Now it's just caffeine for me

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

Yes... you reminded me that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed

I didn't say that you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, I said that your intellectisn't! The point being to trust your heart above your intellect. Your heart is sharper than most people's and you should be proud of that. They are two distinct tools and they are both useful. I think that you should sharpen your intellect but the quality of your heart is worthy of envy.

Now it's just caffeine for me

In my heart caffeine > alchohol > THC. I love caffeine!. You know it's true because when I'm busking with my ukulele, first I buy coffee, then I buy food, then I buy beer, then I buy weed. I should really change my user name one of these days.

hehee, you were just quoting what I myself have said. I wasn't at all offended, thus the laugh
Many thanks for your kind words

What would you change your name too lol?

Ugh... I live on caffeine. I was taking 3 a day before Nuvigil. Now I take 1-2 WITH Nuvigil

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

Ugh... I live on caffeine. I was taking 3 a day before Nuvigil. Now I take 1-2 WITH Nuvigil

Wow...

I can cure your anxiety problems in one sentence: stop taking so much goddamn caffeine. Seriously, that stuff causes anxiety AND increased cortisol, which is the stress hormone. Small amounts of caffeine are harmless and possibly for some people even beneficial, but you take way too much. Of course, you're an addict so you're not going to quit even to save yourself from your mental problems.

I often go for long periods of time without it. But then I sleep. And sleep. And sleep. And such was life before caffeine and the only reason why I started popping them to begin with.
I should have another sleep study done because my sleep apnea is probably much worse. I would probably benefit from one of those breathing machines. (My mom has to use one)
But those studies cost a lot of money and are royal pains in the butt lol

There's a lot of truth to what you said, but my hands are tied if I want any sort of productive life.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

I often go for long periods of time without it. But then I sleep. And sleep. And sleep. And such was life before caffeine and the only reason why I started popping them to begin with.
I should have another sleep study done because my sleep apnea is probably much worse. I would probably benefit from one of those breathing machines. (My mom has to use one)
But those studies cost a lot of money and are royal pains in the butt lol

There's a lot of truth to what you said, but my hands are tied if I want any sort of productive life.

This is why I can't stand addicts. They justify and justify and justify, and tell me I'm wrong because they're special and they really need the drug.

Here's how it works: you feel a week or two of acute withdrawals, and then for some period of time from a few weeks to maybe even a few months (if you're a raging addict and you quit cold turkey which I don't recommend) you might feel tired. Now I'm telling you that caffeine is directly causing you anxiety and stress, and you just brush me off completely. Look this stuff up yourself if you don't believe me. Wikipedia. Erowid. They'll all tell you the dangers of high caffeine.

I want you to feel better, but let me get this straight. You want to go on a vision quest that will be little more than an extended nature walk. You refuse to use any psychedelic drugs, which defeats the purpose. You refuse to quit caffeine even though you take dangerous amounts that contribute strongly to your anxiety. So basically you want your life to get better without you having to change a single thing about it. Have I left anything out?

:shrug:

It is what it is. If I'm a caffeine addict, I'm okay with that so long as I'm a functioning addict. That gets on your nerves but I can't help that. It is a vicious cycle but I don't know of any other solutions unless you'd like to pay for my sleep study... and perhaps take it for me
I'm not brushing you off, I just don't see any other way.

My main problem with taking illegal drugs is simply acquiring them, which (as I've said) is why I was so interested in the Mimosa. It grows wild in a few places around here. I also don't want to be in the woods alone for my first trip.
As for my quest just being an extended nature walk... sometimes being alone with your thoughts and dreams is enough. Life is so busy, hectic and filled with so many distractions that I welcome the solitude.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

It grows wild in a few places around here.

The mimosa that you're intersted in is mimosa hostilis. This is a sub-tropical plant and does not grow in West Virginia. The plant growing in West Virginia is probably Albizia julibrissin Durazz. It does not contain DMT which, as I mentioned previously, probably wouldn't do to much good right now. On the whole the main purpose of hallucinigens is to have a good time looking at a pretty light show and then decide that what you thought was right anyway because you had this awesome "spiritual" experience because of this "medicine" that you took that just confirmed what you thought you knew anyways. Once there's a solid intellectual base in place with which to interpret the visions, then they might become (incredibly) useful. On the whole though, they're just another drug that happens to trigger the brain chemistry associated (but not synonymous) with legitimate spiritual experiences.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

:shrug:

It is what it is. If I'm a caffeine addict, I'm okay with that so long as I'm a functioning addict.

You're the one complaining about anxiety. But whatever, enjoy your life.

Do me a favor Zhaylin and try not to read too much into what fuckheads say that approach issues with their own unwarranted bias.

PhilosopherStoned will belittle anything slightly related to hippy culture and act like there's nothing substantial related to any of it. And Cmind is just an asshole sittin atop a tower of shit he swears is pure ivory.

Caffeine is related to anxiety disorder, especially if you already have issues with anxiety. Caffeine can exacerbate these issues. It may be helpful to you to try a different remedy other than just quitting coffee cold turkey. There are many different kinds of energy supplements which don't have the same connection to anxiety that caffeine does.

DMT is a wonderful drug, but not for whatever steam PhilosopherStoned spewed out. It has nothing to do with realizing anything, or confirming what you thought you knew. Knowledge has nothing to do with DMT. LSD and Mushrooms can have an effect I would almost give philosopherstoned the benefit of the doubt of just misjudging, probably because of personal emotional wounds or bad experiences with certain people that don't know proper usage of the drugs. DMT has no such possibility of doing anything remotely close to what he was talking about, though. DMT destroys your previously held conceptions about reality, it does not confirm them. It teaches you the meaning of the word ineffable. It shakes you loose of presumption. It reveals what is, not what you want to be.

Originally Posted by Original Poster

And Cmind is just an asshole sittin atop a tower of shit he swears is pure ivory.

Oooo it hurts so bad. It would be nice if you could point out an actual thing I said that you disagree with or find distasteful. Like, using quotes.

As for the other stuff you said, I agree. I like how you put it describing DMT (and I think the other classical psychs are ultimately very similar). Another way I would describe it is that it removes social constructs and behavioural norms that have become so ingrained that we mistake them for reality. It simply returns the mind to a childlike state that recognizes real reality and temporarily erases a lifetime of conditioning.

That being said, psychs can be taken too far where you actually 'overshoot' reality and start to make a new one. But that only happens with numerous repeated trips.

I think you have a point there. When you begin investing too many words in what you experience, you miss the target. Especially if you confuse these words for the truth they represent. To me DMT just gives you a glance at what is, which you could call God or the Mystery or whatever you like. But it's important to leave all connotations of such words behind. Acid and Mushrooms, on the other hand, have a far better ability to do what you suggested, which is to invent a bunch of trippy ideas and take them too seriously, taking them back with you and interpreting reality differently, based upon assumptions that are no better than the ones you had before and still just as intrinsically flawed if only because they're based on words or mental constructs.

And if you're curious, the reason I called you a fuck was for statements like these: "This is why I can't stand addicts."

I'd hate to break it to you, but you don't have Zhaylin figured out and you can't solve everyone's problems by stuffing them into a category and then filtering everything they say through the category you stuffed them in. You can help people by listening, taking their problem as unique, and being compassionate rather than judgmental. You don't help anyone with that approach. You're very attitude in the last several posts is exactly what every single book on the subject says you should NOT behave like when dealing with an addict.

Originally Posted by Original Poster

I'd hate to break it to you, but you don't have Zhaylin figured out and you can't solve everyone's problems by stuffing them into a category and then filtering everything they say through the category you stuffed them in. You can help people by listening, taking their problem as unique, and being compassionate rather than judgmental. You don't help anyone with that approach. You're very attitude in the last several posts is exactly what every single book on the subject says you should NOT behave like when dealing with an addict.

I don't doubt that's what the books say. However, I've been addicted to many substances myself and I know exactly the kind of thought processes that perpetuate the addiction. I also know how I had to change my thinking to break addiction. As far as I'm concerned, treating addicts with nothing but love only reinforces the addiction paradigm in their subconscious mind.

I said be compassionate. That doesn't mean you have to condone a behavior. It's the way you label everyone away that irritates me. You've always done this, too. You've judged people's characters based on individual situations and then filtered everything they say through those judgments. This behavior has repeated itself in every thread you involve yourself in. It's always about stuffing whoever you're talking to into some category or another and then refusing to listen to them after that point. You stop conversing and start talking at people. You stop treating them like human beings and start treating them like whatever the fuck you think they are. You don't have to love someone's issue and condone it. Just treat them like a huyman being, and treat their situation like a unique one. Offer a little respect for people.

Sorry to get off topic, Zhaylin.

Originally Posted by Original Poster

I said be compassionate. That doesn't mean you have to condone a behavior. It's the way you label everyone away that irritates me. You've always done this, too. You've judged people's characters based on individual situations and then filtered everything they say through those judgments. This behavior has repeated itself in every thread you involve yourself in. It's always about stuffing whoever you're talking to into some category or another and then refusing to listen to them after that point. You stop conversing and start talking at people. You stop treating them like human beings and start treating them like whatever the fuck you think they are. You don't have to love someone's issue and condone it. Just treat them like a huyman being, and treat their situation like a unique one. Offer a little respect for people.

Sorry to get off topic, Zhaylin.

Right now I'm stuffing you into the condescending holier-than-thou douchebag category. YOU think you're better than me, as evidenced by your ridiculous post. YOU are putting me in a box, inspired no doubt by some bad figure from your childhood. The irony in your post is palpable. Guess what, I'M a human being, and I am allowed to make judgments about people. If you don't like it, you can go fuck yourself, which I'm sure is a lifelong dream for you.

another shining moment in the history of Dream Views dialectic