Thread: What if science/mathematics is necessarily the same thing as spirituality/religion?

Originally Posted by Carrot

Why??? I'm an Asian too.

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I would like to state something, the word "Zero" and "Infinite" most probably possess different meaning in religion/spirituality than mathematics. That's why the argument between both sides never came to an agreement. Zero means something more than just nothing in religion/spirituality if I didn't remember wrongly.

Hehe sorrry it's just a bad joke. The claim that all Asians know math: Family Guy - Cmon , Do Math - YouTube ^-^

And about zero and spirituality, I have never heard that zero means anything else than nothing and I am into many things that are considered spiritual So if you can find an example for that, it would be good.

1/0 = infinity then 0 x infinity should be 1 but at the same time if infinity is 0 then 0 x 0 is 1. I know that you can't divide with zero but if someone says that zero is infinity I need a simple explanation.

But I think I'll leave this thread I have no valid reason to believe zero isn't infinity, it's just an opinion because I can't understand the two concepts.
I mean things in nature never fully cease to exist, they are just not as clear as a solid thing, like the air you see now can be percieved as nothingness, but when you realize that air is something you just can't see but that it exist you realize that it is something, obviously.
But when matter and anti-matter touches it cease to exist o. O And I can't really make up my mind about what that really means.

So I'll leave this and let the math people talk, I am more of an empirical person, and as you can see in my other posts I can believe in very crazy things, if I have a valid empirical reason for it, that reasoning is of course subjective so feel free to call me crazy.. ^^

Anyway I hope you find your answers with the math, someday it will explain everything, I hope

And one last advice. Never divide by zero!

Originally Posted by MasterMind

Hehe sorrry it's just a bad joke. The claim that all Asians know math: Family Guy - Cmon , Do Math - YouTube ^-^

And about zero and spirituality, I have never heard that zero means anything else than nothing and I am into many things that are considered spiritual So if you can find an example for that, it would be good.

1/0 = infinity then 0 x infinity should be 1 but at the same time if infinity is 0 then 0 x 0 is 1. I know that you can't divide with zero but if someone says that zero is infinity I need a simple explanation.

I'm very sorry but I'm not very well read. I recalled borrowing a book about numbers from my teacher and it was explaining what each number meant spiritually. I found an article online, I'm not sure how much it will help in explaining. But it seems like zero is infinity because it resembles a circle and that links to infinity. Nothing to do about its value.

Symbolic Meanings Blog by Avia Venefica » Blog Archive » Spiritual Meaning of Number Zero

Originally Posted by Carrot

I'm very sorry but I'm not very well read. I recalled borrowing a book about numbers from my teacher and it was explaining what each number meant spiritually. I found an article online, I'm not sure how much it will help in explaining. But it seems like zero is infinity because it resembles a circle and that links to infinity. Nothing to do about its value.

Symbolic Meanings Blog by Avia Venefica » Blog Archive » Spiritual Meaning of Number Zero

Funny conclusion though ^-^

Originally Posted by Carrot

. But it seems like zero is infinity because it resembles a circle and that links to infinity. Nothing to do about its value.

Symbolic Meanings Blog by Avia Venefica » Blog Archive » Spiritual Meaning of Number Zero

You are right the conflation of zero and infinity satisfies aesthetic values rather than mathematical ones. It has about as much utility as Pythagoras believing that the number 1 symbolized the god Apollo, in other words no utility at all. I read the Op but I am having some difficulty understanding this thread. I dont believe I understand what "spirituality" is meant to convey nor its relation to mathematics. I'm not really trying to bash on the thread but I have never had a mind for mysticism so perhaps someone could help me out.

To reply to what a few have said; there are several different meanings for infinity. The one I have been talking about so far is the most common colloquial meaning, which is the size of the set of counting numbers, {1, 2, 3, ... }. Another meaning of infinity is that found in analysis, where it is used as shorthand for statements like, '1/x tends to infinity as x tends to 0 from above', but this isn't actually about any entity 'infinity', as x never actually reaches 0, it's just a statement about the way that 1/x is behaving for non-zero values of x. The last use that I can think of for infinity in maths is a formal use, where for instance you might want to say that actual division of 1 by 0 is okay, so you just add some new point to the set, which you call 'infinity' for colloquial reasons, and then add some rules for how it behaves. This last usage is just formalism, you could just as well label the new point 'Garry' rather than 'infinity'; wouldn't make any difference.

The point is that for all three of these different meanings, they each have very precise definitions, and the definitions are about simple and non-contradictory things.

Originally Posted by tempusername

Are you telling me that anything, even the concept of zero, even "nothing," mathematically falls into a set?!

You can take different approaches, and it's kind of too philosophical and/or meaningless for most mathematicians to worry about, but if you're aiming to put mathematics on a highly formal, minimal basis, that basis tends to be sets, yes. I'm not sure there is anything in mathematics that couldn't in principle be reduced to some statement of set theory. Some of the ways it is done are quite cool... for instance, in modern mathematics, the real, continuous number line is formulated in terms of sets (using things called Dedekind cuts, which are basically just a splitting into two sets of the fractions, and fractions in turn are basically just a set of pairs of natural numbers, with some rules).

Size... d-do sets even truly have the property of size? Any property of a set is defined by the elements which it holds... So:

Counting is about the sizes of sets.

Sizing sets is about maps.

Mapping is about distinguishing elements.

Numbers distinguish.

And the only thing to do with numbers is count them... f-f-full circle...

It doesn't really come full circle. It goes sets -> mappings -> number. You distinguish mappings without reference to number.

Originally Posted by Xei

It doesn't really come full circle. It goes sets -> mappings -> number. You distinguish mappings without reference to number.

I've probably got something elaborate to say but for the time being it seems like that thread over there sums up this threadhere.

Originally Posted by stormcrow

You are right the conflation of zero and infinity satisfies aesthetic values rather than mathematical ones. It has about as much utility as Pythagoras believing that the number 1 symbolized the god Apollo, in other words no utility at all. I read the Op but I am having some difficulty understanding this thread. I dont believe I understand what "spirituality" is meant to convey nor its relation to mathematics. I'm not really trying to bash on the thread but I have never had a mind for mysticism so perhaps someone could help me out.

I believe in some stuff that is considered spiritual like Out of body experiences, and what I tried to say was that what's the math of this time doesn't have to prove the experiences people have.
Of course there are alot of other things that is considered spiritual that I don't beleive in, like the Yeti or Snowman, but if I had actually met him I would believe and know, that's obvious.
But I believe that math someday will be able to explain the OBEs and in fact it already is theories of how it could be possible, perspectives and questions Einstein and lots Nobel Price winners present and that Thomas Campbell is trying to solve by taking the consciousness into account.

I know this is equivalent to some people with to say that he is trying to solve Einstein problems by taking a unicorn to account. But listen to the guy before you judge... If that unicorn truly is the solution, you are really missing out on something.


Physics, Metaphysics & the Consciousness Connection 1 of 18 - YouTube

And science is going in a more and more spiritual direction: Just look at the qutoes from some familiar nobel price winners:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giWvh...feature=relmfu

And Campbell explains a good way to consider something reaonable plausible. Around 06:40:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtfJ2...feature=relmfu

The math and logic before was that if someone sailed out to sea they would end up falling of the earth in the end. The math and logic of that time wasn't enough to explain something else.

And this is what I am trying to say is the same problem about OBEs. However there was probably people back then that believed that the earth was round and later on someone else proved it.

Empirical knowledge has more value than non-empirical in logic. That's what I have learned in philosophy class anyway.
And with empirical knowledge to prove OBE, I mean that it is highly reasonable to believe that you didn't had information before but you attain it from an OBE.
Like visiting a house you never been in and then confirming it with the person who live in the house, the next day. That's valid empirical knowledge to me.

It was a little off-topic of me to talk about this and that might have caused the confusion, but is now when I think about unclear to me as well
o. O

I always think that I will write a short post, ah well... What I am trying to say is that I believe math and science can explain everything, but that doesn't mean that we can't experience stuff that math or science hasn't explained yet. But I believe that we can find explanations if we stop marking everything supersticious.

So we need to unite science with spirituality and maybe we can make valuable discoveries.

Like this science center have done: http://noetic.org/