Thread: not sure if this post goes here but what do you think

The brain determines who we are. It's where all of our thoughts, memories and mental abilities reside. So if an entire brain were somehow transferred to another person without it or the body dying (I don't see how this could work but hypothetically speaking), the brain's personality would take over. Why would anyone think otherwise?

Yes, it would be like each person just woke up in the other person's body after the operation.

I've gotta say I'm with Dianeva here, I can't imagine why it would work any other way. >.>

I don't know: on the one hand I mostly agree with the others that the brain is where the mind is, but on the other hand do we really know for sure that 100% of our personality resides in the brain? Anyway, I hope this never becomes possible because if it were, I think it could be abused by people without scruples but with money or power arranging to get their bodies upgraded. Have you seen the science fiction series "The Dollhouse"?

Originally Posted by JoannaB

I don't know: on the one hand I mostly agree with the others that the brain is where the mind is, but on the other hand do we really know for sure that 100% of our personality resides in the brain? Anyway, I hope this never becomes possible because if it were, I think it could be abused by people without scruples but with money or power arranging to get their bodies upgraded. Have you seen the science fiction series "The Dollhouse"?

No, but now I want to...

The reference that I made to the series may seem obscure at first but if you keep watching it, you will see what I mean - it is not about brain transplants, but there is a connection. the series is available on Amazon Prime or on DVD, and it's by Joss Whedon, same maker as Firefly, for instance (another great series).

Originally Posted by JoannaB

The reference that I made to the series may seem obscure at first but if you keep watching it, you will see what I mean - it is not about brain transplants, but there is a connection. the series is available on Amazon Prime or on DVD, and it's by Joss Whedon, same maker as Firefly, for instance (another great series).

Dollhouse rocked, and so did Buffy, and so did the Avengers movie. Joss Whedon is golden.

But back to the orginal topic. That's a really good question. I mean, sure it's your brain, but the body still has a certain way of doing things. There have been reports of people who have received organ transplants, and they develop new habits and hobbies based on their former owners (ugh that sounds weird). Part of me wants to say "you'll be someone else". But another part of me wants to say "you'll be you, but with a different skill set".

There may be other parts of the body that can effect the brain, but in this context it doesn't really matter much. The person receiving the brain would basically be dead and there isn't much left of them at all. The person who owned the brain would most likely still exist as before, though possibly with minor changes due to the different body.

If you get your entire brain replaced, there is no chance you would still be you though.

Honestly, what other body part or system would control thoughts, feelings and behaviours other than the mind? Agree with Dianeva.

Even though I mostly agree with the personality being in the mind, here are a few alternative ideas:

Hormones have a large impact on emotions, and I could be wrong but aren't some hormones produced by glands that are outside of the brain?

The stereotype that women have about men is that at least part of their thinking is controlled by a part of their anatomy below their waist. it's a stereotype, but stereotypes may have some basis in truth.

Self esteem is very linked with one's sense of one's body: whether one approves of one's body or not, whether the body is a well oiled machine or clutzy and inept, skinny and fat matter a lot to many women's self esteem. How fit one's body is determines which activities one can perform, how tired one is, etc.

I am thinking there may be other things as well. Sure, they may seem minor compared to the brain but all this adds up and has a potentially large influence on personality.

Pretty much anyone with any knowledge of anatomy and neuroscience will agree with Dianeva. There's a good reason why we know personality, memories, and suchlike resides in the brain.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

Even though I mostly agree with the personality being in the mind, here are a few alternative ideas:

Hormones have a large impact on emotions, and I could be wrong but aren't some hormones produced by glands that are outside of the brain?

The stereotype that women have about men is that at least part of their thinking is controlled by a part of their anatomy below their waist. it's a stereotype, but stereotypes may have some basis in truth.

Self esteem is very linked with one's sense of one's body: whether one approves of one's body or not, whether the body is a well oiled machine or clutzy and inept, skinny and fat matter a lot to many women's self esteem. How fit one's body is determines which activities one can perform, how tired one is, etc.

I am thinking there may be other things as well. Sure, they may seem minor compared to the brain but all this adds up and has a potentially large influence on personality.

Some hormones are produced outside of the brain, yes. And men are definitely controlled by their "below the waist" anatomy, but so are women at least as much, if not more so (if you ask me). The difference is just in what kind of control it has. Self-esteem and perception of your body do also play a role, again for both sexes. I won't deny either of these things.

However, neither your hormones or your self-esteem change who you are at the core. These are things which change naturally throughout your lifetime based on your own body chemistry, and therefore as far as I'm concerned are invalid arguments in this case. Hormonal and self-esteem changes could certainly manifest differences in the way you feel after a brain transplant, but they won't change who you are. It'll still be you in your new body, with no traces of who the person used to be. For example, the way their minds responded to their hormones and body structure will have no effect on how you respond to them.

Ok, you have a good point about women being as controlled by sexual urges as men. Sorry to stereotype wrong.

As for hormones and self esteem changing over time, yes they do. The question is: is there really a who we are at the core that remains or do we change so much in so many ways that we are not really who we used to be? To be honest I am not sure to what extent I still am who I was as a teenager, I have changed so much in such fundamental ways that I am not sure how much personality remains of the one I used to be. Yes, I have some memories of what it was like to be sure of right and wrong and not see any shades of grey, but these memories are vague and are so different from my current self. If I encountered someone who was just like I was back then, I am not sure I would recognize her as myself and identify with her. Am I the same self as I was at 16? Or am I someone else? My personality is certainly very different in so many ways and it is harder to find the "core" that you are talking about. My self esteem has changed, my moral values have changed, my interests have changed, my sense of what is important and what is not has changed - what is left?

Edit: just so you know I am glad I am no longer who I used to be. I changed because I needed to change, and most of the changes in personality happened during the first year of college, which incidentally was also the time when I first got into lucid dreaming - not a coincidence, greater self awareness led to seeing that I needed to change, and so I did. And if I ever need to change as drastically again, I will. And will it still be me? Am I at the core "the one who is willing to change her personality if needed"?

Edit2: I may actually be in mid major personality change right now. I have started a set of self improvements since February and I am paying closer attention to myself, and I know there are aspect of myself that I want or need to still change. And again I am pursuing lucid dreaming or related practices as tools for personality change. The JoannaB who signed up here in February may not be the same JoannaB who I will be next year. Yay.

Yes, I believe that there is a core of who we are, a basic pattern that we will always follow no matter what personality changes we go through. People change over time of course, but that's just a part of growing up. I still don't see it as relevant to this discussion, because whether or not you can relate to how you used to be, you've still always been you and how you used to be is a part of who you are now because it's due to your life experiences, including those you feel distant from now, that you are the way you are presently.

The question was "do you think if brain transplants where fully possible that the person receiving the transplant would be the same person or take on the memories and personality of the [person] they got the organ donated off ?"

It doesn't say "will their personality change?", it says "will they take on the other person's personality?". The answer is no. The chemicals outside of your brain influence the way your personality is, but ultimately it comes down to how your brain reacts to those chemicals, not the chemicals themselves. The way your personality changes based on those new hormones and body structure will still by influenced solely by your own experiences, and not those of anyone else.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

Edit: just so you know I am glad I am no longer who I used to be. I changed because I needed to change, and most of the changes in personality happened during the first year of college, which incidentally was also the time when I first got into lucid dreaming - not a coincidence, greater self awareness led to seeing that I needed to change, and so I did. And if I ever need to change as drastically again, I will. And will it still be me? Am I at the core "the one who is willing to change her personality if needed"?

Yes, apparently you are. You can go through as many life changes as you want but you'll still be you.

Ok, I agree that a person with a brain transplant or rather a person with a whole body except for brain transplant would probably have way more of the personality from the brain, however I think due to hormones and body fitness and body image etc, I think that the personality of the person whose brain it was would change drastically, and some of the changes would bring this personality closer to the personality of the person whose body it used to be in some ways because the hormones and body fitness level etc would lead the personality to changes in that direction. So while the person would not be the person whose body it was, they would not be the same personality as the personality in that brain with previous body. Someone who used to know them both might I think see that some of the changes in personality could remind them of the body's owner's previous personality.

And I am still not fully convinced about the "core" staying the same. It may or may not. I personally changed so drastically that it is hard to identify what staid the same, and if one does not find specific parts that staid the same, can one truly say that a "core" is the same? What is that core? If it is not moral values and it is not what is important to me, then what is it: what makes me still the same person and not someone else? I am always me in the present, but am I the same one as I was 25 years ago? If I no longer think / feel / judge / value / perceive the same, what is part of that "core"?

Another thought: if someone had amnesia, to the extent of not remembering who they are and who their loved ones are, are they still the same person at the core - their personality would thoroughly change and their prior experience would not consciously influence who they are, so at what point do we say that the core is no longer the same?

Just to clarify: I am not saying that I believe there is no core, what I am saying is that I am questioning whether there is a core or not, and if there is what is part of that core. I am a Christian so I guess I would prefer to believe that there is a core and call it a soul, but I am an open minded individual who likes to question fundamental stuff like that to reach a better existential understanding. My understanding is that Buddhists believe that the distinction of self versus non-self is a false dichotomy, and part of me sees where they are coming from, while another part of me really wants to reject that and insists that there is a self that is separate and eternal but I do not have the evidence to support that claim.

I think it's also worth pointing out that much of the stereotypical "men-think-with-their-dick" behaviour is itself a product of the mind. If a man wants to have sex with a woman he finds attractive, that's a mental decision, not something that magically goes on with his penis without input from the brain.

Sure, hormone levels can influence this and it's not inconceivable that a whole body transplant could lead to a change in sex drive if these were to vary considerably, even if the production of many hormones is regulated by the brain. But that doesn't mean you should take it literally, for the most part.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

Ok, I agree that a person with a brain transplant or rather a person with a whole body except for brain transplant would probably have way more of the personality from the brain, however I think due to hormones and body fitness and body image etc, I think that the personality of the person whose brain it was would change drastically, and some of the changes would bring this personality closer to the personality of the person whose body it used to be in some ways because the hormones and body fitness level etc would lead the personality to changes in that direction. So while the person would not be the person whose body it was, they would not be the same personality as the personality in that brain with previous body. Someone who used to know them both might I think see that some of the changes in personality could remind them of the body's owner's previous personality.

Not disagreeing with this, however, it is very much a cop-out. It's dependent on whether or not a person continues to live the same lifestyle as the person who was previously in the body they were placed into, which they could easily not. It proves nothing. Also, any two people can be extremely similar, regardless of whether or not they use the same body. Whoever got the brain transplant could just have easily already have been really similar to the person whose body they're in, but it doesn't mean anything.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

And I am still not fully convinced about the "core" staying the same. It may or may not. I personally changed so drastically that it is hard to identify what staid the same, and if one does not find specific parts that staid the same, can one truly say that a "core" is the same? What is that core? If it is not moral values and it is not what is important to me, then what is it: what makes me still the same person and not someone else? I am always me in the present, but am I the same one as I was 25 years ago? If I no longer think / feel / judge / value / perceive the same, what is part of that "core"?

This is my belief on it. No two brains are exactly the same, neither from development or even right when they're first made. But that's what's important. Your brain grows and regulates itself from the moment you're born as you gain experience, and that changes the way you express yourself and form your beliefs over time. However, every change that has ever happened to you has come from an outside influence impacting that original brain pattern that was unique to you, and every reaction that will ever happen, even those that would come from being placed in a different body, will be an outcome of this same ever-evolving function. Nothing will ever change your overall brain in the exact same way as it would someone else. That's what makes you "you". No matter how differently your views change over time, it will still always be based on the basic blueprint that is your brain. That's how I see it, anyway. You aren't consciously aware of your brain's blueprint, so you can't always see it just based on the views you currently hold, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. And this is something that will not change with a brain transplant, you will still respond to your new body the way YOU would, not the way its old owner would.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

Another thought: if someone had amnesia, to the extent of not remembering who they are and who their loved ones are, are they still the same person at the core - their personality would thoroughly change and their prior experience would not consciously influence who they are, so at what point do we say that the core is no longer the same?

I've actually read stories of people with amnesia who remembered nothing about their previous lives and, according to everyone around them, their overall personality did not change. Memories are not held in the entire brain, just parts of it. Many aspects of your brain will still continue to function as they already had even when you have amnesia, and even when you continue to gain new memories, your brain will handle them just like it handled the old one. The way it functions on a basic level, the thing that makes it unique from others, will not have changed just because you can't remember your past.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

Just to clarify: I am not saying that I believe there is no core, what I am saying is that I am questioning whether there is a core or not, and if there is what is part of that core. I am a Christian so I guess I would prefer to believe that there is a core and call it a soul, but I am an open minded individual who likes to question fundamental stuff like that to reach a better existential understanding. My understanding is that Buddhists believe that the distinction of self versus non-self is a false dichotomy, and part of me sees where they are coming from, while another part of me really wants to reject that and insists that there is a self that is separate and eternal but I do not have the evidence to support that claim.

This is somewhere we differ. I'm not religious, and I don't believe in any self separate from our physical forms.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

I think it's also worth pointing out that much of the stereotypical "men-think-with-their-dick" behaviour is itself a product of the mind. If a man wants to have sex with a woman he finds attractive, that's a mental decision, not something that magically goes on with his penis without input from the brain.

Sure, hormone levels can influence this and it's not inconceivable that a whole body transplant could lead to a change in sex drive if these were to vary considerably, even if the production of many hormones is regulated by the brain. But that doesn't mean you should take it literally, for the most part.

It's just a phrase though, I don't think anyone actually believes that the dick is doing the thinking....

I hope not, anyways. o.O

I don't believe the dick is doing the thinking. I do however believe that my thinking is different than it would be if I had a dick.

I found all your comments very interesting, and I agree with most of them, I think.

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

It's just a phrase though, I don't think anyone actually believes that the dick is doing the thinking....

I hope not, anyways. o.O

Oh I bet you someone somewhere does. Never underestimate what people will believe!

I believe in consciousness after death

That said, my brain is hardwired for me!!! Each brain is hardwired uniquely to the individual. No two brains are identical. Our whole lives our brains constantly making new associations, constantly changing.

When our brains create new associations we change as a person, or when we change as a person a new association in the brain is created. So either the brain is who you are, or the brain is wired to express who you are. But for the sake of this conversation, there is no difference between those two philosophies.

According to the science of death, a person dies with brain death. Not with the death of their heart or any other organ, but with brain death. So as far as I can see, the science of death and spirituality agree - you die with your brain and no one elses brain can change that.

In otherwords, this isn't a subject of "brain transplant". This is a subject of "body transplant", not the other way around.

SleepySam

"We" might not "Be" in our Brain:

Organ Transplants and Cellular Memories
According to this study of patients who have received transplanted organs, particularly hearts, it is not uncommon for memories, behaviours, preferences and habits associated with the donor to be transferred to the recipient.

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PaulPearsall.com - Welcome to the official web site of Dr. Paul Pearsall, Hawaiian Lecturer, Keynote Speaker, internationally famous, best-selling author.

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AND (heeheehee) I am just being cheeky.

Energy signatures and Cellular Memory in Organ Transplants

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Energy signatures and cellular memory in organ transplants - YouTube

***(5:05)

O M G

Sorry for technically trolling your thread Sleepysam but your opening post and all the replies got me thinking deep and searching the net for answers. OMG look at this:

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Medical Proof of mind and memory outside the body 1of 2 - YouTube

***(10:12)

It gets wildly interesting from the 7:00 (7 minute) point onwards (???)

Originally Posted by debrajane

SleepySam

"We" might not "Be" in our Brain:

Organ Transplants and Cellular Memories
According to this study of patients who have received transplanted organs, particularly hearts, it is not uncommon for memories, behaviours, preferences and habits associated with the donor to be transferred to the recipient.

That looks like a woefully ridiculous study. And probably is, given that it's from "Nexus Magazine," an "alternative news magazine." Seems like total bunk.

Originally Posted by juroara

In otherwords, this isn't a subject of "brain transplant". This is a subject of "body transplant", not the other way around.

This part I agree with. That's probably a better way to look at it.

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

This is my belief on it. No two brains are exactly the same, neither from development or even right when they're first made. But that's what's important. Your brain grows and regulates itself from the moment you're born as you gain experience, and that changes the way you express yourself and form your beliefs over time. However, every change that has ever happened to you has come from an outside influence impacting that original brain pattern that was unique to you, and every reaction that will ever happen, even those that would come from being placed in a different body, will be an outcome of this same ever-evolving function. Nothing will ever change your overall brain in the exact same way as it would someone else. That's what makes you "you". No matter how differently your views change over time, it will still always be based on the basic blueprint that is your brain. That's how I see it, anyway. You aren't consciously aware of your brain's blueprint, so you can't always see it just based on the views you currently hold, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. And this is something that will not change with a brain transplant, you will still respond to your new body the way YOU would, not the way its old owner would.

An analogy used in philosophy while discussing this may be relevant. Consider a ship that gradually has all of its planks, sails, and other parts replaced over decades. Eventually, no original part of the ship remains. Is it still the same ship? (And to make it more complicated but not relevant to this discussion: if all the old parts were stored in a warehouse, and are later reassembled to make a new ship, which ship is the real original ship? )

I think it's just a matter of opinion. There's no real answer because we're asking for some objective categorization of something that we've only categorized ourselves. We roughly define ourselves to be the people we are, with our personalities, memories, bodies, etc. Usually that's a simple enough answer. Yet we have this false (I believe) sense that we're doing more than categorizing, that we're actually identifying some real definition of 'me', when none exists.

I think I understand your reason for saying we continue as the same person, but again, I think it's arbitrary. It seems like you may just be reacting to that gut feeling that we all have, that your identity has remained the same throughout the changes in your life. So you're defining identity in such a way that you'll always be the same person. I'm not disagreeing, since it seems like a suitable definition, I just don't see why this is an argument.

Operation "Standstill" (???)

(6:55) - Pams body temprature would be lowered to between 10 and 15 degrees centergrade.

Her heart and breathing stopped.

Here brain waves flattened.

And

the blood drained from her head.

She would be clinically Dead for the whole hour of the operation.

What we want to do is bring that whole Brain to a halt.

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Medical Proof of mind and memory outside the body 1of 2 - YouTube

***(10:12) 6,216 views

Accidental discovery of consciousness and memory functioning despite a defunct brain. BBC

You guys should watch this