Thread: Your View Om Communism

Intended, I understand where you are coming from in that you believe United States (multinational) corporations are profiting at the expense of the poor people in the world. This is with the approval and cooperation of the citizens of the US, who for the time being, get the trickle down, and every one is deluded that this is going to last forever, and even the poorest people are fat. We're all bought off here with cheap gas and cheap food and welfare for anyone who might cause trouble otherwise, meanwhile our deficit spending means in 40 years it will all collapse. Nobody here cares about socialism, that's for people who don't have anything. This country is run by old people who give themselves more and more at the expense of future generations. You're right about the media, and that we're zombies; we don't have a free press because it's owned by just a few people who only want us to know certain things.

Anyway--I agree with you if you are saying this is unsustainable and there should be a different way of doing things. However, I think that your way has been tried and has failed. It is a young idealistic person's idea.

The cooperation of government and business is what has gotten us to this point of more and more for fewer and fewer people. You are advocating for more of the same, but worse. There doesn't need to be more government which operates in the interest of corporations, there needs to be less. The less the better. And no matter what you say, socialism does mean less freedom for individuals, there's absolutely no way around it. It's 1984, fascism, complete loss of individual rights, and black markets are where you go for what you need.

On the other hand, a libertarian philosophy allows those of us who want to work hard and create more for ourselves to do so, without the government telling us how much we can work and how much we can earn, therefore not going against human nature and not making hard workers support an additional 2.5 lazy-asses, who should also have the right not to work if they don't want to (and maybe not to eat, but should be their choice).

I don't think this philosophy applies to corporations however--I think human rights are for humans only, and coporations shouldn't have the same rights as individuals, and therefore don't have to be allowed to become the unstoppable government-controlling forces that they are now.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Ey, whats wrong with the south!! Dude, the southern US is very strange now. I was born and raised here, and i dont even have a southern accent. And im not fat!!:p Watch them stereotypes.

I wont say that Stalin's communism wasnt true communism, because it is a fact. All I and Universal Mind mean to say is that there doesnt seem to be a driving force for communism, and nobody has pointed one out.

I dont see what is so bad about using the working class to generate worth. You said it yourself, American middle class is still considered wealthy by world standards. So, even though we are being "robbed", we are still richer than the middle classes of other nations. How is that not efficient?

Looking at it from that perspective, i would say that we are not really being robbed. Our system made our average person the richest average person in the world. Again, looking at it like that, on a WORLDWIDE scale, American laborers are not being screwed.

the south is rad! haha looking at the percentages...it might not just be a stereotype! but im not saying your fat, im just saying even much of america's poor are fat! and they are only considered "poor" if you compare them to america's rich. If you compared them to other groups in history america's poor are fairly well off.

NO, they are being screwed, but only slightly and only sometimes...but maybe there is something still better...is communism the answer? I've never said so...

All I and Universal Mind mean to say is that there doesnt seem to be a driving force for communism, and nobody has pointed one out.

do you mean you are saying Human Nature goes against socialism/marxism etc..?


AND
I'm still wondering, is "freedom" the ability to choose which fastfood joint or factory you get to work at?

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Moonbeam this is a communist thread get out of here! no far extreme-right allowed! : D and besides we don't need libertarianism, I already solved it...

(I don't know, maybe something like a post-anarchist Ludic society built around "playing" all day might be nice )

Originally Posted by shark!

the south is rad! haha looking at the percentages...it might not just be a stereotype! but im not saying your fat, im just saying even much of america's poor are fat! and they are only considered "poor" if you compare them to america's rich. If you compared them to other groups in history america's poor are fairly well off.

NO, they are being screwed, but only slightly and only sometimes...but maybe there is something still better...is communism the answer? I've never said so...

do you mean you are saying Human Nature goes against socialism/marxism etc..?

AND
I'm still wondering, is "freedom" the ability to choose which fastfood joint or factory you get to work at?
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Moonbeam this is a communist thread get out of here! no far extreme-right allowed! : D and besides we don't need libertarianism, I already solved it...

Yea, the south has its ups and downs, but i love it. I would much rather be a redneck than a freggin yankee!! Northerners are VERY different from us. The hospitality we have here doesnt seem to exist up there. And we have pick-up trucks!!

I fully agree with you that there is a better way out there. Its just that communism and socialism are not the answers.

I do believe that human nature would not allow socialism to work. People arent that selfless.

YES, that is a form of freedom. But so is getting a college loan and going to Harvard to become a lawyer because you busted your ass in high school. Its easier here than you might thing, and all you have to do try. Unfortunately our high shool students are more focused on finding the best weed than school work, atleast at my high school. Private schools are a different story. Dude, America really is the land of opportunity, and it is never too late to get a college degree.

Originally Posted by shark!

AND
I'm still wondering, is "freedom" the ability to choose which fastfood joint or factory you get to work at?

With freedom, you can choose that, or to get a better education, or to start your own business, or to deliver pizza, or whatever. Without freedom, the government tells you what you are going to do. Being free does not mean being spoiled rotten. We are not talking about how to create Heaven. We are talking about allowing people to make their own ways. It is up to each individual to make his or her money on the path the individual chooses. But they have to work to get to the paths. With freedom, each person has a shot at making so much money he or she never has to work again.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

With freedom, you can choose that, or to get a better education, or to start your own business, or to deliver pizza, or whatever. Without freedom, the government tells you what you are going to do. Being free does not mean being spoiled rotten. We are not talking about how to create Heaven. We are talking about allowing people to make their own ways. It is up to each individual to make his or her money on the path the individual chooses. But they have to work to get to the paths. With freedom, each person has a shot at making so much money he or she never has to work again.

True, i would rather choose to deliver pizzas than be told i have to.

I would like to adress something, and i mentioned it on previous posts. Americans are the richest people on earth. We have a highest standard of living, on average. So, in the end, how are we being robbed, again?

"Well, screw you, you're a dog. Dogs are color blind. That means you can't see color, so you can't see the colors of the American Flag, you communist!"

--Stewie Griffin

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But nice to see this topic still going. Communism is still a powerful word, thanks to all the anti-propaganda during the cold war.

Also always nice to see two full grown men pleasure themselves verbally trough patriotism.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

With freedom, you can choose that, or to get a better education, or to start your own business, or to deliver pizza, or whatever. Without freedom, the government tells you what you are going to do. Being free does not mean being spoiled rotten. We are not talking about how to create Heaven. We are talking about allowing people to make their own ways. It is up to each individual to make his or her money on the path the individual chooses. But they have to work to get to the paths. With freedom, each person has a shot at making so much money he or she never has to work again.

Lets respond to this. I kind of didn't read the last few pages of the topic, so excuse me if I say things that have been said before.

First of all, what does freedom has to do with this topic? Are you still confusing Stalin's totalitarian empire with the theoretical utopia-commumism? And even besides that, I would like to know in what way America is more free then Europe. I believe I have asked this question before sometime, and it didn't surprise me I didn't get an answer then. If any line is just sealed into most American's minds it is "WE aR TEH FRE-EST COUNTRY EFFER!!" or synonyms of that sentence, without actual proof supporting that claim. Like saying 'god bless America'.

Explain to me how a theoretical 'communism', or socialism, or at least some hypothetical country where everyone earns the same for the same hours of work, or at least no more deviation then 50-100%, leads to less freedom.

The only 'freedom' capitalism gives you above a non-totalitarian communistic society is the ability to under the right circumstances economically rise above the average, at the cost of the rest, creating relatively poor (if we assume a communistic and a capitalistic society are economically equally efficient. I see no reason why that would be impossible).

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Your 'freedom' is often awfully relative. Someone with an I.Q. of below 100, and below-average charisma, does not have to 'freedom' to never have to work again to feed it's children, unless it enjoys the 'freedom' of winning the lottery. Aren't some people genetically less equipped to enjoy the freedom of getting right? Or aren't a lot of people socially less equipped to attain wealth?

Anyhow. Interchanging the word 'capitalism' with 'freedom' is just deceiving. It would also be a freedom to be able to kill people. However, I personally don't like 'freedoms' that allow people to do things at the cost of others. There can not be rich people without poor people.

I hate the massive misconceptions about communism. The Chinese are not communist, their fascist. They use communism as a dream to rally support when in fact they are admittingly still a dictatorship of the proletariat that doesn't support the proletariat it pretends to. Same with the uSSR, Vietnam, North Korea, and pretty much all attempts at communism. Greedy motherfuckers used communism as an excuse, just like our government uses terrorism as an excuse to apply some fascist techniques to government.

Neruo, socialism and communism are robbery, and it takes a fascist system to maintain those economic policies. Freedom involves the right to not be severely robbed by the government, and truly free societies tend to reject socialism and communism because those are anti-freedom systems.

I agree that not everybody is genetically equipped to attain the same amounts of wealth, but everybody should still be given the freedom to do the best they can. To take that right away is to take away freedom... and the incentive to work hard and be inventive.

Originally Posted by DoomedOne

I hate the massive misconceptions about communism. The Chinese are not communist, their fascist. They use communism as a dream to rally support when in fact they are admittingly still a dictatorship of the proletariat that doesn't support the proletariat it pretends to. Same with the uSSR, Vietnam, North Korea, and pretty much all attempts at communism. Greedy motherfuckers used communism as an excuse, just like our government uses terrorism as an excuse to apply some fascist techniques to government.

Actually the Chinese are more capitalist-leaning now. But they are fascists

Neuro, I would say that America is "more free" than Europe. You know as well as I do that freedom of speech is more limited in Europe. Most European countries have much higher taxes than we do here. We have the freedom to pay for our own health care, and not wait 5 years for a surgery if we need it. It may sound strange to you, but we have the freedom to be racist. From what i understand, practicing racism in Europe is basically a crime. The list goes on and on, and Europe has a bunch of quirky laws that we dont have here.

In America, Westboro Baptist Church members can hold those signs on the side of the road, and have police protecting them. Could that really happen on the side of a English street?

Anyway, back to communism. Is it not by definition the opposite of freedom? If you are not in control of the things that communism would control, then how is that freedom?

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Actually the Chinese are more capitalist-leaning now. But they are fascists

Neuro, I would say that America is "more free" than Europe. You know as well as I do that freedom of speech is more limited in Europe.

Nappy headed ho's.

What a nonsense. You wouldn't believe the bullshit politicians and people alike get away with saying here. You have no proper argumentated foundation to base that claim on. Come back when you have some proof.

Most European countries have much higher taxes than we do here. We have the freedom to pay for our own health care, and not wait 5 years for a surgery if we need it.

Hahahaha. That is why you have the 'freedom' to have Horrible schools. Worse schools on average then 75% of europe or something.

Also, your heath care is Greaaat.. Yeah. It just happens to be so, that Americans pay alot for heath care, but in actual results,score below some very sad counties.

It may sound strange to you, but we have the freedom to be racist. From what i understand, practicing racism in Europe is basically a crime. The list goes on and on, and Europe has a bunch of quirky laws that we dont have here.

I don't see anyone stopping 'blood and honour' here. Actually, as far as I heard, even racist groups get police escort on a protest, to prevent fights.

In America, Westboro Baptist Church members can hold those signs on the side of the road, and have police protecting them. Could that really happen on the side of a English street?

Oh, I didn't read this. Well, yes, if the hate is not aimed at anyone personally. However, we have this silly rule that says causing horrible grief upon already sad people shouldn't be allowed. We are so unfree.

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And what about drugs? There are hundreds of thousands of Americans in jail for the most innocent drug.
What about burning an American flag in the street? Can you still? If I recall, your counties does have some rules about not being allowed to discredit America or something? Pissing against our government building would get you in far less trouble, so to say.
And what about having a private house? Your government can just listen to your phone calls, see what sites you go to. Patriot act, gotta love it.

And what about your horrible media? Your very media is tainted with bias. You have like the 150th place in free media in your country. That is a bloody shame. Free, proper media is a greatly important factor for a democratically healthy country.

Talking about that, what about the 'freedom' to only vote for 2 parties. Do you think there will EVER be a 3rd? I greatly doubt it. Great choice you have. Between 'stupid' and 'more stupid'. I can vote from over 10 parties. But that isn't even as important. More important is, that I could, Far and FAR more easily, get into politics myself, if I really put my mind on it.

Do you think some black guy growing up in 'the hood', or some trailer park trash can EVER get into politics, regardless of how good they are?

America is only more free for companies, the government and police forces. Not for it's people.

Anyway, back to communism. Is it not by definition the opposite of freedom? If you are not in control of the things that communism would control, then how is that freedom?

The communism I idealize, is one of the freedom to do what ever you want unless if you hurt other with it, and where everyone earns about the same amount of money.

I don't know how marx intended it, but I would like a world where people would work, not for their own money, but for the entire world, and love it as much as people love raking in money for themselves now. I don't see why there couldn't be a great deal of freedom to go with that.

But like I said like 4320 pages back, communism (the kind I am thinking of), can't really work in the current fucked up state the world is. Maybe if we have food replicators, and people finally stop being materialistic.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Neruo, socialism and communism are robbery, and it takes a fascist system to maintain those economic policies. Freedom involves the right to not be severely robbed by the government, and truly free societies tend to reject socialism and communism because those are anti-freedom systems.

I agree that not everybody is genetically equipped to attain the same amounts of wealth, but everybody should still be given the freedom to do the best they can. To take that right away is to take away freedom... and the incentive to work hard and be inventive.

What the heck? I though it responded to this already? It's like a few of my posts have dissapeared.. : /

Ah well.

How is (theoretical) communism robbery? Because of taxes? You have taxes in any civilized country. There is no reason why a communist society would have More taxes then a capitalistic one (at least, if the capitalistic one values good, free schools and good, free healthcare).

Besides taxes, I don't see what a communistic government steals.

If you are talking about profits one would earn in some countries from having some Chinese people locked in his basement working for close to nothing, I don't see how it is robbery if one gets paid for his work, it just isn't at the cost of his employees.

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Also, in a theoretically perfect communistic society, people wouldn't get lazy just because they can't make 100 times more as a normal job if they invent some patent or something. As I said, it would be pretty hard to get people not to focus on their own profit.

Also, like I said, I don't see how it is a freedom to get rich, at the cost of others. The world's economy is a closed system. If someone gets rich, someone (mostly more then one) gets relatively poor. I don't see it as a virtue to live your freedom of getting rich, at the cost of others. It's like the 'freedom' to steal, or rape. The only difference is not that all those things are in people's nature (under certain circumstances), because there is a potential thief in everyone, but that stealing through capitalism works very 'naturally' and unlike communism, can work with bad people in the mix.

Neuro, what you dont understand is that the screwed up crap in my country is the result of too much freedom. The media in America is free to talk about whatever they want, and they choose to focus on trivial stuff rather than the important stuff. They just report what people want to hear. Its not like Russia, where the media is FORCED to report "positive news" 25% of the time.

What about college? High School doesnt mean shit. All you have to do is try, make decent grades, and go to college to get a Master's degree. THAT is where the real education is, and i KNOW that Europe has low ass college attendance rates. In the end, we are much more educated.

I went to private school as well as public school. My private school was among the best in the world, so dont talk about crappy schooling. And unless you attended my public school, i wouldnt say anything either. The only difference is that kids dont try in public schools, so teachers have to compensate.

I would also like to add that all this smugness about how much better your schools are doesnt mean crap. Europeans should be #1, and us stupid ass, uneducated Americans should be inferior. But, we are not. Our system obviously works better, as we create the most educated people on Earth. You just hate it because a good education costs money.

Whatever, man. Most of the "non-freedoms" you mentioned about America are indirect and subjective. To tell the truth, i dont understand the drug ban in the US. The ones in Europe are direct. DIRECT limitations of free speech. Direct limitations of medical procedures. So on and so forth.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Neuro, what you dont understand is that the screwed up crap in my country is the result of too much freedom. The media in America is free to talk about whatever they want, and they choose to focus on trivial stuff rather than the important stuff. They just report what people want to hear. Its not like Russia, where the media is FORCED to report "positive news" 25% of the time.

I never said America was all That unfree that it matches Russia. Also, dispite your crappy media being so popular, it does really break down the people's knowledge about things that matter, things about their own government. It is a huge risk. For instance, do you think the Bush administration would get away with the dozens of lies, helping friends stay out of jail and infringing in people's privacy if your media was number 1 in the world?

What about college? High School doesnt mean shit. All you have to do is try, make decent grades, and go to college to get a Master's degree. THAT is where the real education is, and i KNOW that Europe has low ass college attendance rates. In the end, we are much more educated.

Yes, a great environment to get all those kids full of potential to grow is a crappy school in a big city where they have more students then desks.

Also, I highly doubt that per person you have more educated people in America. Even with all the brain-draining you cause from second world countries, if I am not mistaken the average IQ in europe is higher then in America.

I went to private school as well as public school. My private school was among the best in the world, so dont talk about crappy schooling. And unless you attended my public school, i wouldnt say anything either. The only difference is that kids dont try in public schools, so teachers have to compensate.

How many kids from 'the ghetto' attended your 'best in the world' school? Just some die-hard smart people that get scholar ships doesn't mean there isn't a huge amount of intelligence being wasted on children that can only flourish with proper schooling their parents can afford.

I would also like to add that all this smugness about how much better your schools are doesnt mean crap. Europeans should be #1, and us stupid ass, uneducated Americans should be inferior. But, we are not. Our system obviously works better, as we create the most educated people on Earth. You just hate it because a good education costs money.

Do you want me to get out some numbers about how much your school system sucks major testicles?

Whatever, man. Most of the "non-freedoms" you mentioned about America are indirect and subjective. To tell the truth, i dont understand the drug ban in the US. The ones in Europe are direct. DIRECT limitations of free speech. Direct limitations of medical procedures. So on and so forth.

So getting your ass busted an put in jail for having a few grams of marijuana isn't "direct enough"?

What about Abortion? Took you quite some time to make that a freedom.

What about stem-cell research? You are so free in America, that your government is stopping valuable, potentially medicine-changing research.

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You can't deny America isn't as free as the government wants you to think it is. But you're alll buying it. Not changing anything.

Now if you will excuse me, I will enjoy my right to smoke marijuana legally.

IQ has to do with brain potential, and less to do with education, but nice try. Plus, we dont use your freaky "metric" IQ system. What, do you measure it in kilometers? :p

Screw our media. Its a joke, and the whole world knows it. But still, i havent heard breaking news from Holland.

What you have heard about our education system is stereotypical. You have been told the worst of it, and you have generalized it. Only a couple schools have more students than desks. You act like it is widespread.

My private school had nothing to do with intelligence. It had to do with daddy's paycheck. Good think my dad, former dirt poor redneck, tried hard and got his degrees. Anybody can go to college, ESPECIALLY these days. I dont care about any excuses people give, besides being mentally retarted. Here in the US, we decide to leave education up to the family rather than the government. We try not to waste resourses on quitters.


Stem cell research has nothing to do with "freedom". Again with the subjective.

Go ahead and smoke your pot. Do you honestly think i have a problem with it? Having weed illegal adds to the fun, if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

IQ has to do with brain potential, and less to do with education, but nice try. Plus, we dont use your freaky "metric" IQ system. What, do you measure it in kilometers? :p

Yeah, it's so fucked up, our metric system. So weird, let me tell you, if you have 50 centimeter, and you add another 50 centimeter, what do you get? One meter!?! Isn't that weird? It is really confusing, because it is just like normal math.. (50+50=100)

I mean, (50 inches) + (50 inches) = 8.33333333 feet, THAT is far FAR more logically.

Screw our media. Its a joke, and the whole world knows it. But still, i havent heard breaking news from Holland.

According to some recent study, our media was in first place, together with Ireland and some other country. If you expect news from a 16-million-people country, I will have to dissapoint you. Even though probably we have more 'world new' per person then China, there isn't much to say.

What you have heard about our education system is stereotypical. You have been told the worst of it, and you have generalized it. Only a couple schools have more students than desks. You act like it is widespread.

Yeah, having only a few schools with more students then desks, sound like a great achievement. Nothing to worry about, it just in some smelly areas.

My private school had nothing to do with intelligence. It had to do with daddy's paycheck. Good think my dad, former dirt poor redneck, tried hard and got his degrees. Anybody can go to college, ESPECIALLY these days. I dont care about any excuses people give, besides being mentally retarted. Here in the US, we decide to leave education up to the family rather than the government. We try not to waste resourses on quitters.

Quitters? Beethoven was a totally weak pussy. Blablabla. Sounding a bit to must like a social-Darwinist for my taste there, HD. (social-darwinist = nazi, basically).

I have this weird theory that just because a child can't make it under certain circumstances it doesn't mean he doesn't still have potential. I know, it's just weird.

Stem cell research has nothing to do with "freedom". Again with the subjective.

Haha. Subjective? Subject-what-suits-you-at-the-moment. If anything is a freedom that should be cherished, it is the freedom to peruse scientific progress (withing ethical ranges, set up by the proper argumentation, not by religious bigots.)

Go ahead and smoke your pot. Do you honestly think i have a problem with it? Having weed illegal adds to the fun, if you ask me.

Yeah, I think I will take a trip to the US, get cought smoking some weed there, and then get a nice anal massage in prison from a nice big black man, while wasting the rest of my life because it's pretty hard to get a job once you been to prison. And once I DO get a job, I can enjoy random infringements of my personal privacy by random company drug tests ^__^

Oh, the joy of being so free, companies can fire you for something you took during the weekend in your own personal time, and no longer has negative effect on your job. Yaaay!

We are getting way off topic here, but, whatever. I never said there werent any problems with America, but we are the best. Maybe the problem with Europe is that they focus too much on the little stuff.

Concerning drug tests, it is pretty much proven that drug addicts are not the best workers. America is all about efficiency, and drug addicts are not ideal workers. That is why we drug test, not because they are illegal.

Back to communism, please. What is the driving force? The incentive? Give me something good.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

We are getting way off topic here, but, whatever. I never said there werent any problems with America, but we are the best. Maybe the problem with Europe is that they focus too much on the little stuff.

Concerning drug tests, it is pretty much proven that drug addicts are not the best workers. America is all about efficiency, and drug addicts are not ideal workers. That is why we drug test, not because they are illegal.

Not as far off topic as Univeral Mind saying "We were right to bomb hiroshima", I believe we got to the 2nd world war and America on like, 4 different topics.

Also. Yeah, America is the greatest. In putting people in jail, murder rates, people addicted to drugs not a single soul uses in Europe (coughing medicine), great over-spending, an overheated economy -just look at the mortgage-crisis-thingy lately-. Best at stuffing fat faces, best at spending energy, best at telling people they should get plastic surgery. Best at having a shitload of depressed people that swallow tons of prozac.

Every country has good sides, and bad sides. However, under the Bush administration, criticism, the very foundation of a healthy democracy, has been demonized and labeled 'unpatriotic'.

And I think that is silly. America isn't screwed on a cultural level, just mostly on a governmental level, and on the level of how people think about how their government should work. That is what I think.

Anyhow. Bashing America, while el patriots (you guys) defend it to the grave, has been funny for now. Old news

Back to communism, please. What is the driving force? The incentive? Give me something good.

Yes. Exactly. I do not recall every in this topic saying: Lets have a revolution, and by tomorrow everyone will be working joyfully for the greater good! . That would be pretty darn naive. I think (potential) lack of selflessness that is within every person is a Huge HUGE obstacle for such an equality-society as communism to work.

Actually, the only way to have the slightest chance of it working, is if we drastically change people's ideas about what they desire. Or if we have everything we can wish for, like if we invent holo-decks or something. Only then, perhaps, can every human being on the planet Perhaps value their own species above their personal gains. I say gains, I don't say the collective is more important then the individual, not at all. It's like, if people are Happy providing for other, if everyone feels like a dad feeding his family, only global, and everyone would be driven to really work, only then communism could work.

So actually, it can't. People just don't work this way. But hey, I never said there was any chance of it.

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Actually, I believe I made this topic for two things:

A) To debate weather communism, if it would work perfectly, would be disierable. Personally, my view of an utopia is one of complete equality, same rights, same pay, equal distribution of food, of water, of everything. It is my belief that if communism would work (but it will not for close to eternity or longer), it will be the closed form of society we can create on this planet to match a theoretical 'perfect world' (aka Utopia).

Yesch?

and B)
Weather or not the very word "Communism" just was propagandized into peoples head, especially americans that lived during the cold war, to resemble pure evil. But unlike Stalins Empire of Sucking terror, the Theory of Communism is meant to be purely good for everyone (it just doesn't work).

And I guess, that at point B), I'll have to say that Americans do seem to decline any concept bearing the name "communism" faster then other people.

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Mkwayyyyy

That last post lets me know that you really dont get America. Bush bashing is unpatriotic? Dude, its the cool thing to do now, and Republican politicians are doing it. In fact, those who support Bush are demonized, not the other way around. How could you have thought the opposite?

To the topic of being brainwashed. I think if you and i sat down at a table and talked this out over some brews, we would see that neither of us are brainwashed. This is the information age. When I post this stuff, i know i sound shallow, which comes off sounding like braniwashing, probably because it is harder to put thoughts into writing than language. I understand communism. They teach us in school what it is supposed to be. It looks good on paper, but is just not practical. Capitalism was a well formulated system that proved successful. Communism, although not "true" communism has shown nothing but failure or oppression. To me it is no contest.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

That last post lets me know that you really dont get America. Bush bashing is unpatriotic? Dude, its the cool thing to do now, and Republican politicians are doing it. In fact, those who support Bush are demonized, not the other way around. How could you have thought the opposite?

Republican debate recently:

Question: What do you Not like about America?
Potential Future President: Well.. ehh.. I can't really think of ANYTHING I don't like about America. (something along those lines) (he likes unemployment, small children being shot in the face, i.e.).

Also, I highly doubt that in some certain special states I will not name specifically, riding around in a 'fuck bush' automobile will make very much people cheer. But that is just my interpretation.

How often do you hear people Really criticizing America? Saying: "This political system is far from perfect!" or "we need to stop putting so many people in prison for bullshit laws about soft-drugs" or "we need to stop the religious right stopping science, proper rights for homosexuals..ect".

You can't get elected if you say don't say "GOD bless AMERICA", but instead "America isn't the greatest country on earth". Try it.

To the topic of being brainwashed. I think if you and i sat down at a table and talked this out over some brews, we would see that neither of us are brainwashed. This is the information age. When I post this stuff, i know i sound shallow, which comes off sounding like braniwashing, probably because it is harder to put thoughts into writing than language. I understand communism. They teach us in school what it is supposed to be. It looks good on paper, but is just not practical. Capitalism was a well formulated system that proved successful. Communism, although not "true" communism has shown nothing but failure or oppression. To me it is no contest.

Brainwashed might be a big word. But I would say some Americans seem to be very focused on these slogans the government created at some point. And like I said, it isn't that they are saying "God bless America" and "America, best and most free country in the world", but it's that they say it without Thinking. I don't think you can deny that most people don't really Think about saying those things, do they?

Also, I would like to get that I get a lot of my information for my side in this -especially in your eyes- anti-america-debate from the Internet, from Americans basically (at least, I am guessing most of my sources are American). There are a great deal of Americans that do pretty much share my ideas on some of these subjects. Much respect 2 them and shizzle. I mean, I think the true American Patriots right now are the people that want change the most. On some level, patriotism and 'supporting the troops'/waving flags/god-blessing-america, have turned into the same thing. While I think that a true patriot should be very critical of ones own country, and not just cheerfully wave that flag and praise the troops without thinking about it.
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And capitalism is a great system to grow a countries economy. I only think it should be regulated better. And it should have been regulated perhaps during the last few ages. There is a reason Africa and most of Asia and South America are poor. If we never interfered with them, they wouldn't be poor. They would just be living their own isolated existence, with their own standards. The rich west became rich over the backs of making most of the rest of the world Poor. Slave trade, stealing natural resources, stealing land. It are all very true and in my eyes very bad 'side effects' of capitalism.

But actually, I have to blame Europe for that

Originally Posted by Neruo

Also, like I said, I don't see how it is a freedom to get rich, at the cost of others. The world's economy is a closed system. If someone gets rich, someone (mostly more then one) gets relatively poor. I don't see it as a virtue to live your freedom of getting rich, at the cost of others. It's like the 'freedom' to steal, or rape.

Could you give me a list of people Bill Gates has made poor? I can give you a long list of people who have jobs because of him. He employs about a hundred millionaires, each of whom employs tons of people who make good money and spend that money, which feeds other businesses and thereby creates more wealth. Wealth creates business expansion, which creates wealth. Wealth creates wealth. Communism creates the will to do a half ass job, which screws up business, which screws up national wealth.

Communism is robbery because it takes away everything a person has except enough to get by. Communism shows major disrespect for people's property. It also steals their incentive to work hard. A lot of people's major spirit in life involves working hard all the time to make money. It is what they are made for. Communism steals that form of the human spirit. Nobody is going to live the executive life of hardcore money making if they get the same no matter what they do. People should have a right to make fortunes. Communism shows major disrespect for that. Communism is a terrible idea for many reasons.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Could you give me a list of people Bill Gates has made poor? I can give you a long list of people who have jobs because of him. He employs about a hundred millionaires, each of whom employs tons of people who make good money and spend that money, which feeds other businesses and thereby creates more wealth. Wealth creates business expansion, which creates wealth. Wealth creates wealth. Communism creates the will to do a half ass job, which screws up business, which screws up national wealth.

Communism is robbery because it takes away everything a person has except enough to get by. Communism shows major disrespect for people's property. It also steals their incentive to work hard. A lot of people's major spirit in life involves working hard all the time to make money. It is what they are made for. Communism steals that form of the human spirit. Nobody is going to live the executive life of hardcore money making if they get the same no matter what they do. People should have a right to make fortunes. Communism shows major disrespect for that. Communism is a terrible idea for many reasons.

Life works best when people work for the society they live in, as long as the society in turn does what's best for them. A dctator of the Proletariat could install communism, but only if, as brain of the country, he did what was in turn fair to the country. However, it's fascist once he creates propaganda, and starts controlling people's lives. Communism favors independence, and freewill. The do their work and follow their dreams because theoretically a good dictator of the proletariat would stop control entirely, and federal and state taxation would stop and everything else because there would be no need for it, macromanagement would cease to exist, the businesses would run themselves.

So yes, a form of communism is the next evolution of mankind. It completely supports a form of the free market, except businesses become more like utilities. Fortunes are an act of immature greed. Materialism is an entrapment of the spirit.

Originally Posted by DoomedOne

Life works best when people work for the society they live in, as long as the society in turn does what's best for them. A dctator of the Proletariat could install communism, but only if, as brain of the country, he did what was in turn fair to the country. However, it's fascist once he creates propaganda, and starts controlling people's lives. Communism favors independence, and freewill. The do their work and follow their dreams because theoretically a good dictator of the proletariat would stop control entirely, and federal and state taxation would stop and everything else because there would be no need for it, macromanagement would cease to exist, the businesses would run themselves.

So yes, a form of communism is the next evolution of mankind. It completely supports a form of the free market, except businesses become more like utilities. Fortunes are an act of immature greed. Materialism is an entrapment of the spirit.

What would be the incentive for people to work hard enough and be inventive enough to create the wealth capitalism creates? How could people attain their financial dreams if what extra they do changes nothing for them?

Originally Posted by DoomedOne

Life works best when people work for the society they live in, as long as the society in turn does what's best for them. A dctator of the Proletariat could install communism, but only if, as brain of the country, he did what was in turn fair to the country. However, it's fascist once he creates propaganda, and starts controlling people's lives. Communism favors independence, and freewill. The do their work and follow their dreams because theoretically a good dictator of the proletariat would stop control entirely, and federal and state taxation would stop and everything else because there would be no need for it, macromanagement would cease to exist, the businesses would run themselves.

So yes, a form of communism is the next evolution of mankind. It completely supports a form of the free market, except businesses become more like utilities. Fortunes are an act of immature greed. Materialism is an entrapment of the spirit.

Nevertheless, materialism and greed are part of human nature. Our system plays on this to create a free market. Frankly, it just makes sense. And it works miracles.

Communism doesnt seem possible without propaganda. If the economy isnt going good, and people are getting pissed, it would fall apart. Communism is too fixed. Besides, you would have to hand the country over to the government. You would'nt have any say in what happens. That being said, a democracy is impossible with communism. Democracy is the greatest good since Jesus. Once again, i bring up the differences between South Korea and North Korea.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Could you give me a list of people Bill Gates has made poor? I can give you a long list of people who have jobs because of him. He employs about a hundred millionaires, each of whom employs tons of people who make good money and spend that money, which feeds other businesses and thereby creates more wealth. Wealth creates business expansion, which creates wealth. Wealth creates wealth. Communism creates the will to do a half ass job, which screws up business, which screws up national wealth.

Haha. When windows 3.1 came out, there were Far more superior operating systems. Windows got so big, because of really good marketing. I however am not going to look up who lost his job because of that

Also, you again fail to see the point. Yes, bill gates probably was better for the average person in America. Yes, I keep saying this, Communism doesn't normally create such innovative people. However I am talking about a hypothetical society, where, despite being communist, it does not effect how hard people work at all.

Get that into your skull, I said it like 5 times already.

And in THAT scenario, The economy of America would have grown just as hard as it has now. You get it? Now stop using that 'blabla, communists are lazy'-typed argument, I already explained I am talking about an (probably impossible) hypothetical form of communism (where the people aren't lazy as shit).

Your main argument, because you can't stop using it, has nothing to do with the discussion. If communism wouldn't hurt our economy, it would only be better for it's people. (however, it does hurt it)

Communism is robbery because it takes away everything a person has except enough to get by.

This is just retarded. I mean, are you high? Watched some old 70s propaganda lately? Maybe you should try READING WHAT I WROTE DOWN. I am talking about a kind of communism where there wouldn't even be more taxes, but everyone's pay check would look (very very much) the same. That would mean the average person, and that means everyone, could afford a car, a house, a hottub, or hell I don't know what the average person can afford in America at this moment.

Communism shows major disrespect for people's property. It also steals their incentive to work hard.

"Get off me property!" "Jiii-Haaaa!"

I don't know or the whole 'no private property' is communism pur sang. (really a backbone of it). I personally don't see why people can't chose for themselves what land they want to buy with the money they make. How does it show disrespect for people's property?

This might surprise you, but my personal view of a good kind of communism, and I think most people's view of a good kind of communism, doesn't include forced relocations like McFacist Stalin did.

Incentive to work hard I already covered.

A lot of people's major spirit in life involves working hard all the time to make money. It is what they are made for.

Yeah, totally correct.

What I am saying is: " Wouldn't it be nice, it people could work that hard not for money, but work for their entire country and people with the same joy" ?

That's all I am saying. I don't see how that is half as bad as the warped, Stalin-raped idea of communism you have.

Communism steals that form of the human spirit. Nobody is going to live the executive life of hardcore money making if they get the same no matter what they do. People should have a right to make fortunes. Communism shows major disrespect for that. Communism is a terrible idea for many reasons.

No, you keep just saying "people don't work like that".

And you can't deny that in a society where it doesn't hurt the economy if people would be communistic, the capitalistic society would create poor people when compared to the communistic one.

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Lets try again, since you seem to fall back on the same silly arguments I covered -if I recall correctly- somewhere in the region of the first page of this topic.

# Lets Assume people would work just as hard for 'the people' as they now work for their own money.
# Thus, the amount of pay one receives does not influence how hard the person will work.
#Thus, you could pay everyone the same, without negative consequences for the overall world economy.
#Thus no poor people exist. At the level we have come we could have stopped world hunger 50 years ago.

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It just seems like a nice world, a world without poor people. But that might just be me. If it was possible, I would rather have such a world then the poverty-ridden world we live in today.

Are 3 billions starving people worth your 'freedom' to maybe get rich and powerful?

If you could start humanity over again at the start of societies, would you leave them the same, or make them less egocentric so they could create a society I would call communistic, where there is no poor, the government is there, never getting corrupt like is normal today, but to help everyone, and no-one wants to go to war (and set back everyone)?

I rather see the latter.

But it doesn't matter. It is the word that has been tied up to SO many bad words and associations in your mind that I should just rename my view of communism if I ever want to have an objective debate about it with anyone.