Thread: U.s Is Going To Fall

Has the topic of welfare been brought up yet?
If not i want to incorporate it...
One thing that's true about Americans is that we're lazy.
And there are a certain few who enjoy taking advantage of the Government - and it's money.

There are people having KIDS for the sole reason to get welfare.
And there's people who get on it and don't wanna get out, so instead of trying to work hard and find a way to make some money of their own, they simply feed off the government.
And then they get pissed off about all the shitty things the Government does, despite the fact that they're living off it.

That fact will contribute to the fall of our nation. We're cheap (He-LLO WalMart!), we're lazy, and we whine our asses off.

Stop pointing fingers at the White House and let's look at ourselves for a change.
For the most part, our people are just as bad.

Originally Posted by Armageddon_Heaven

Has the topic of welfare been brought up yet?
If not i want to incorporate it...
One thing that's true about Americans is that we're lazy.
And there are a certain few who enjoy taking advantage of the Government - and it's money.

There are people having KIDS for the sole reason to get welfare.
And there's people who get on it and don't wanna get out, so instead of trying to work hard and find a way to make some money of their own, they simply feed off the government.
And then they get pissed off about all the shitty things the Government does, despite the fact that they're living off it.

That fact will contribute to the fall of our nation. We're cheap (He-LLO WalMart!), we're lazy, and we whine our asses off.

Stop pointing fingers at the White House and let's look at ourselves for a change.
For the most part, our people are just as bad.

We have different classes. The dependent welfare class is definintely lazy, and they are an enormous problem. But I think the people who work full time jobs are generally not lazy, and the reason behind our success is the class of people who are so obsessed with money that their entire lives are wrapped up in work.

Yeah, but with each new generation brings the tradition of the previous.
The children of the welfare people will only know welfare, only use welfare, and so on and so on.
That class is like a virus, and the longer we allow it to exist, the worse our country is.

Fewer and fewer people are "going for the American dream", in my opinion...we're just too goddamn lazy.

Originally Posted by Armageddon_Heaven

Yeah, but with each new generation brings the tradition of the previous.
The children of the welfare people will only know welfare, only use welfare, and so on and so on.
That class is like a virus, and the longer we allow it to exist, the worse our country is.

I totally agree. That disaster needs to be called off before it ruins the country. The thug element that has gotten so out of hand is to a major extent a result of lack of parental authority of welfare mothers who have a zillion kids and can't keep up with them enough, especially when the father is nowhere around because he knows the welfare will take care of the kids so he doesn't have to. Those kids grow up without consciences are are a nightmare. Welfare is also a huge strain on the economy and all kinds of other terrible things.

Originally Posted by Armageddon_Heaven

Fewer and fewer people are "going for the American dream", in my opinion...we're just too goddamn lazy.

That seems to be the case, and the people I know in my parents' generation say it's the case. There seem to be more and more people in their 30's and older who live with their parents, having never left even for a while. I thought that didn't even exist when I was a kid. Now I know of many cases of it. Maybe I am just seeing a side of life I never saw earlier in my life.

Originally Posted by OneRyt

The question isn't "if" it falls, it's more like, who's going to be there to capitalize on the opportunity?

Say what?

What are your predictions on when the U.S. will take over Canada and steal their oil?

I dont think anybody sincrely thinks that will happen.
It'd be quite an illogical conclusion.

I think we are going to fall for a different reason.

I think after Bush isn't president anymore for a while, we are gonna get fucked by like 3 different countries, since it will be some liberal in charge. China scares me and they are beastly. Iran scares me too. And the damn Koreans scare me. I dunno, I have serious trust issues with people, and trusting countries is even harder. I'ma have to get the fuck out of this country because I'll be so paranoid. We shoulda blown em all up/ taken em over while we could!

We're gonna die from a weapons of mass destuction disaster!!!!!!!!!

I didn't read any responses, so I don't know if someone has already said something like this.

Niether korea, iran or china re going to bomb the US anytime soon,
at all

The ability of the U.S. to absorb catastrophic effects is truly remarkable. I seriously doubt the U.S. will 'fall' in the near future, even given its many pressing problems, but it's hard to see the U.S. retaining its superpower status for very long.

Its biggest problem is not foreign, but domestic. America is simply too slow to adapt adequately in a world that is changing quickly. When major policies fail, it can take decades to address them because of the dysfunctional political system. Failed policies have been piling up for decades, and the consequences will soon demand a substantial shift in the U.S. government and force the end of its reign as a superpower.

I would again argue that the U.S. has ALREADY fallen, and that there are two world powers at war with each other right now for control of the shell of what we once were.

Those two powers are Saudi Arabia (via the Bushes, et al,) and China, alongside the restructuring remains of the U.S.S.R. (via the Clintons and Kennedys.)

This next election is going to be fascinating. I personally just can't wait to find out who we're going to be kowtowing to for the next four to eight years. The Saudi thing is getting old... and I think it is going to take a REAL taste of unabashed and unmasked collectivism to find out if the American People have anything left in them. Personally, I doubt they do.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

The time has long passed... yet we continue to shoulder our chains without very much complaint.

We have become sheep. The shearing will continue until our meat becomes more valuable.

If not for all the political reasons, the money as well. Money talks, and without the money hungry private corps. in the States re-distributing the wealth into the American consumer, inflation will kill them. Then again, if they do that, they're losing a tonne of money.

"A great Civilization is not conquered from without, until it has destroyed itself from within." - Will Durant

Uraguay is going to fall. Discuss.

I'd expect we (The U.S.) will lose our superpower status soon, relinqueshing the title to China or India, the world's current emerging nations.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut_Jeff777

I'd expect we (The U.S.) will lose our superpower status soon, relinqueshing the title to China or India, the world's current emerging nations.

They will never be able to do it if they don't become more capitalistic. Because of their populations, they could outdo us if they become capitalistic enough. Russia could too. I would love for that to happen. I don't like my country being the world's only superpower. It incites too much resentment and anti-nationalism, which I think is just as sick of a prejudice as racism, sexism, and homophobia. I want the whole world to use free market on the level we do and become highly advanced, productive, and powerful. One of my dreams in life is to live to see such a world. I also will not be afraid of any of those countries if they become so successful. I don't fear highly capitalistic countries. They tend to be advanced and civilized. The less primitive a country is, the better it is for the world.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

They will never be able to do it if they don't become more capitalistic. Because of their populations, they could outdo us if they become capitalistic enough. Russia could too. I would love for that to happen. I don't like my country being the world's only superpower. It incites too much resentment and anti-nationalism, which I think is just as sick of a prejudice as racism, sexism, and homophobia. I want the whole world to use free market on the level we do and become highly advanced, productive, and powerful. One of my dreams in life is to live to see such a world. I also will not be afraid of any of those countries if they become so successful. I don't fear highly capitalistic countries. They tend to be advanced and civilized. The less primitive a country is, the better it is for the world.

That strikes me as a highly ignorant comment.
First of all India is very very capitalistic.

Secondly that comment at the bottom. Capitalism has been responsible for some very very un-civilized actions throughout history. Lets not forget that although Hilter called his party the National Socialists, Germany was a capitalsit country. Under Captialism in America we had slavery. Under the highest form of cpaitalism, imperalism, we had colonization, with European powers fighting for colonies all around the world. Capitslism tends to always bring with it, poverty, and opression. In the free congo, in chilie under pinochet. It tends to be to me that both Socialist and Capitalist countires have throughout history acted very very uncivilized.

let me ask you a question.
What is it about a powerful socialistic nation that frightens you so much?
Your sentence that you wuldnt be afraid of a highly succesful capitalist country implies that you would be afraid of a succesful country employing a different econonmic system. Why is that?

Originally Posted by imran_p

let me ask you a question.
What is it about a powerful socialistic nation that frightens you so much?

Enslavement. Despotism. Tyranny.

WE are a powerful socialistic nation, though we do not yet openly admit that. The next election could very well change that, and then the world may really understand just how much there is to lose here - not just for the U.S., but for the entire planet and all of humanity.

Wealth is created, and Capitalism just happens to be by far and away the greatest motivator of wealth creation discovered by man so far. True capitalism, (which has only been known for brief periods throughout history and really doesn't exist today,) is really nothing more than liberty and freedom. It is still powerful enough that a communist country like China can partly removed its heavy hand from the economic sector and permit capitalism to reign, resulting in staggering creation of wealth. Capitalism permits and encourages the creation of wealth. Wealth is the cure for (real - not U.S. variety) poverty and the stuff that BUILDS super powers.

The problem with socialism and communism is that humans run it all - and humans INVARIABLY become corrupted by the combination of wealth and power. That's why 100,000,000 have given their lives (so far) demonstrating how the collectivist dream is really humanity's greatest nightmare. It is a system that attempts to control existing wealth rather than promoting and benefiting from creation of wealth. The only way to do that is to steal wealth from those who create and own it.

There's a whole lot to fear from a socialist or Communist superpower, but only if you are a human who values his or her liberty. Otherwise I guess it's no big deal, huh?

Firstly, both Capitalism and Socialism create wealth, the only real theoretical deiffernce lies in the distribution of that wealth.
And you refer to true capitalism not existing, I argue that true communism as dictated by Marx and Reformed by Lenin has never existed.
You talk of corruption as if it doesnt exist within Capitalism, and I dont udnerstadn yoiur point that humans run it all in Socailsit society.

How is this any different from a Capitalist society? Enslavement? Capitslism in its opurest form has given us that throughout histroy, jesus, Captialism invented that.

How can you see tht wealth is stole from those who create it and own it?
These are not the same people, in a Capitslist society the bourgeoise own the wealth and the proletariat create it.
The workers create the wealth, but the workers don't own the wealth.
Labour Theory of Value.

Personally I'm not a communist, I believe in semi-socialsit society, like what Britain used to be.
Here we have the NHS, if it wasnt for great people like Nye Bevan, figtihng for soemthing tat the time was regarded as socialsit we wouldnt have it. In capitslist countries only rich bourgoise people can afford good healthcare, same wtih education. Thats why you have your ghettos. Capitslism, is a robbery system that thrives on wars and imperalism.

Originally Posted by imran_p

That strikes me as a highly ignorant comment.

Oh, nice. Always start off a debate with a flame comment. It will get you far.

Originally Posted by imran_p

First of all India is very very capitalistic.

Are they as capitalistic as the United States? If not, then they are not going to be more advanced and civilized than the United States.

Originally Posted by imran_p

Secondly that comment at the bottom. Capitalism has been responsible for some very very un-civilized actions throughout history. Lets not forget that although Hilter called his party the National Socialists, Germany was a capitalsit country. Under Captialism in America we had slavery. Under the highest form of cpaitalism, imperalism, we had colonization, with European powers fighting for colonies all around the world. Capitslism tends to always bring with it, poverty, and opression. In the free congo, in chilie under pinochet. It tends to be to me that both Socialist and Capitalist countires have throughout history acted very very uncivilized.

First of all, I did not say that all capitalism has been good. I said that the more capitalistic a country is, the more advanced and civilized it is. That is much more true now than it was before the industrial revolution, which really gave capitalism room to create prosperity. But when you throw in the dictatorship factor, a horribly negative variable is involved. It is capitalistic democracies that are by far the best. Dictatorships suck.

Originally Posted by imran_p

let me ask you a question.
What is it about a powerful socialistic nation that frightens you so much?
Your sentence that you wuldnt be afraid of a highly succesful capitalist country implies that you would be afraid of a succesful country employing a different econonmic system. Why is that?

We have been over this before. Socialism destroys room for incentive. Does it not? People can't get obsessed with making money if they are not allowed to make and keep a lot of money. That hinderance prevents business expansion and the economic growth that results from it. That keeps countries much more backward ass than they would be otherwise. I fear backward ass countries far more than countries where people have come way out of the stone age. Also, a capitalist country is a free country, and a free country is one that will have a much better chance of keeping its leader in check than one where the government has way too much control. The correlation is not +1, but it is close.

Take the top ten most successful capitalist nations in the world and ask yourself how afraid you would be that they would take over Britain if each of those countries were the world's only superpower. Now take the top ten most successful non-capitalist nations and ask yourself the same question. Do you see the difference?

By the way, there is a question I asked you a bunch of times earlier this year and you never answered. What is your favorite communist country? You were all gung-ho communism back in January and February. Are you still? Tell me about where communism, or socialism for that matter, has ever proven to be a major success. What country used socialism or communism to create a wealthier and more wordly supportive society than the United States, Britain, Israel, or Japan? I want to know about these successes you have in mind. Thank you.

(@imran_p) I see that you don't really understand what capitalism is. If you are looking to the U.S. as a shining example of capitalism, you are sorely deluded. It's no different from looking to the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany as shining examples of pure socialism.

You might try reading Ayn Rand's "Capitalism, The Unknown Ideal" or at least some Austrian economics.

Originally Posted by pj

(@imran_p) I see that you don't really understand what capitalism is. If you are looking to the U.S. as a shining example of capitalism, you are sorely deluded. It's no different from looking to the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany as shining examples of pure socialism.

You might try reading Ayn Rand's "Capitalism, The Unknown Ideal" or at least some Austrian economics.

I really wish we would go all the way with it so we could set a much bigger example of what capitalism is capable of creating.

First of all calling your comment ignorant is not at all flaming, i didn't say you were ignorant I said the comment struck me as bieng ingornat

Next, i think we had a misunderstanding in your sue of the word civlized, I took it to be a purely ethical term. However, i contend that at its peak the Soviet was very very advanced, remember Sputnik? Also, your jsutification for the evils of captialism being dictatorship is weak, as I can apply this to socialist countries. Coutnries that vote in a more socialist government are different to those where a mad communsit dictator goes on a killing spree, e.g. Stalin. You still didnt justify imperalism, or slavery?
Both evils of capitalism?

So next you offer your reasoning fir why Capitlism is economically superior, I do not disagree it creates more wealth. Surely you are not scared of a succesful scoailsit country because of your belief that people have no incentive to work?
What scares you about a syuccesful country that you claim lacks the superiority of the Capitlist system?

"A capitalist country is a free country"

Youve been listeinng to too much government propganda, they even tech us that shit in our schools. Capitliast countreis can be dictatorshps and they can be democracies, also I argue that the workers are never free in a capitslist country.

Now the war question, it tends to be in my expereince that its capitslist countries rampaging around the glob right now expanding the free market. Everytime a country nationalizes its resources the US or Britain invade them, but eh lets not make this an Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran debate?

Finally, which communist country ahve i ever supported,
Not one
because like I said there has never been one.
But I'll show you the beauty of Social Democratism, or state controlled capitalism.
Britan
Not now, but back in the days of Benn, Foot and Bevan. We have the NHS, until recnetly it was brillaint, we had a great education system that until recnetly was accesible to all groups in society. We ahve a gret beneifits system, this is all down to Old Labour, who by party deifntion are Social Democrats/Socialist. Obviously Britain is not so great these days, with us being America's little lapdog, and the rise of New LAbour and there Conservatism

I believe in the Utopia of Communism, in theory, I'm not sure of its practicalitiy, but I do know that Free Market or Lassiez Faire Capitalism is inheretly evil and a robbery system.

What a bunch of garbage

Originally Posted by imran_p

Next, i think we had a misunderstanding in your sue of the word civlized, I took it to be a purely ethical term. However, i contend that at its peak the Soviet was very very advanced, remember Sputnik? Also, your jsutification for the evils of captialism being dictatorship is weak, as I can apply this to socialist countries. Coutnries that vote in a more socialist government are different to those where a mad communsit dictator goes on a killing spree, e.g. Stalin. You still didnt justify imperalism, or slavery?
Both evils of capitalism?

The Soviet Union's government had some good technology for a short time because the money they took from the citizens went into their space and arms races with the United States. That does not mean the country itself was well civilized. To the extent that it was, it was a result of the peoples' prior history of not being the Soviet Union.

Dictatorships suck in capitalist and socialist countries. I don't see where we disagree on that.

Of course I am not going to justify slavery or imperialism. I told you that capitalism doesn't have 100% good results in all cases. However, the top capitalist nations in the world do not allow slavery and are not imperialistic today. We have become civilized due to the industrial revolution and the effectiveness of capitalism. I am talking about the populations, not merely the government. Our civilized people would never allow such things now.

Originally Posted by imran_p

So next you offer your reasoning fir why Capitlism is economically superior, I do not disagree it creates more wealth. Surely you are not scared of a succesful scoailsit country because of your belief that people have no incentive to work?
What scares you about a syuccesful country that you claim lacks the superiority of the Capitlist system?

As I already told you, the more primitive a population is, the more evil it is. Socialism stifles growth in all areas and stops the ability to evolve into less primitive states.

Originally Posted by imran_p

"A capitalist country is a free country"

Youve been listeinng to too much government propganda, they even tech us that shit in our schools. Capitliast countreis can be dictatorshps and they can be democracies, also I argue that the workers are never free in a capitslist country.

Capitalist countries are rarely dictatorships. How many are there any in the world right now? How are the workers never free in a democracy? We outlawed slavery in the mid-1800's. How are workers more free in a socialist country? I can't say I have any idea what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by imran_p

Now the war question, it tends to be in my expereince that its capitslist countries rampaging around the glob right now expanding the free market. Everytime a country nationalizes its resources the US or Britain invade them, but eh lets not make this an Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran debate?

We spread the freedom that all countries deserve. We are not like the Soviet Union, who went around robbing countries of their freedom.

Originally Posted by imran_p

Finally, which communist country ahve i ever supported,
Not one
because like I said there has never been one.
But I'll show you the beauty of Social Democratism, or state controlled capitalism.
Britan
Not now, but back in the days of Benn, Foot and Bevan. We have the NHS, until recnetly it was brillaint, we had a great education system that until recnetly was accesible to all groups in society. We ahve a gret beneifits system, this is all down to Old Labour, who by party deifntion are Social Democrats/Socialist. Obviously Britain is not so great these days, with us being America's little lapdog, and the rise of New LAbour and there Conservatism

So the education system was better when Britain was more socialist? That's the big advantage of socialism in Britain? Try privatizing your school system, and I will show you success in education. You probably have a socialistic school system like we have. Ours is pathetic. Our private schools rock, but our public schools are an embarassment. Without financial competition, a school does not have the necessary incentive to be great, in most cases. But any way, you have said that capitalism creates more wealth than socialism, so how else is Britain worse off today than in the old days? I know which Britain I would rather live in.

Originally Posted by imran_p

I believe in the Utopia of Communism, in theory, I'm not sure of its practicalitiy, but I do know that Free Market or Lassiez Faire Capitalism is inheretly evil and a robbery system.

Socialism and communism are robbery systems. People don't get to keep the great successes they earn. With capitalism, they can. So how is capitalism more of a robbery system than socialism?

Most importantly, what would be the driving force in communism and socialism? Why would people work hard to create wealth, which of course results in the buying of more products, which expands businesses and creates more wealth, ad infinitum? What is superior about socialism and communism, and what could possibly be the driving force that would make them work well?