Thread: Damn Skeptics......

If you want proof then go look it up rather then saying "prove it". Google is your friend, use it and learn. If you always give out random stuff and say it's true then that's another story. Also what some people think is true is not true to other people.

None of that matters, not here anyway. Keep that kind of talk elsewhere you two.

Originally Posted by ethen

None of that matters, not here anyway. Keep that kind of talk elsewhere you two.

I was meaning in general, not to phoenelai.

This site? Are you out of your mind? Dreamviews isn't a place based for New Age ideas and the Supernatural. Its about Lucid Dreaming, a normal and natural experience, an experience that is, for the lack of a better term, Scientifically Proven.

Not to mention something even more important, who the hell says non-skeptics believe in everything? So you're saying that because someone maybe doesn't believe in Astral Projection that they must automatically not believe in Lucid Dreaming? That if they're skeptic on one thing they're skeptic on everything? People have varying beliefs, its not all black and white as much as you want it to be. Its not all or nothing, its not like there are two perfect sides separated by a line. That logic is just flawed and stupid.

Even if this site was about new age ideals, which its too bad for you, its not, then you're saying skeptics have no place on it? Too me that looks like being purposefully ignorant, not wanting to hear what others have to say and afraid of someone that challenges you're beliefs, and finally when it comes right down to it, unaccepting of those with other beliefs. Thats just closed minded and ignorant, which ironically is what you're complaining about others being isn't it? Hm, funny how that works.

Honestly, as Oneironaught said, there is a HUGE difference between Dreaming and Mysticism/Supernatural/Paranormal/New Age/ect. Dreaming isn't a New Age thing, nor is Lucid Dreaming. Once again, even if it was I can not stress enough how flawed your logic is if you think that because one person is a skeptic on one thing he can't believe in Lucid Dreaming, even though it has been Scientifically proven, with evidence and not just pseudo theories.

Use your head a little more, thats what you're here for.

Generally speaking, I agree with you. You are right in the sense that this website isn't about new age ideas or the supernatural. However, this specific forum is. It's a little nook, in an otherwise LD-orientated forum, where people who have such beliefs can discuss them without persecution. Or thats how its supposed to be, anyway.

It’s perfectly clear, as outline by Icedawg and the forums rules. The real question is, why aren't skeptics respecting this?

Originally Posted by ethen

Generally speaking, I agree with you. You are right in the sense that this website isn't about new age ideas or the supernatural. However, this specific forum is. It's a little nook, in an otherwise LD-orientated forum, where people who have such beliefs can discuss them without persecution. Or thats how its supposed to be, anyway.

It’s perfectly clear, as outline by Icedawg and the forums rules. The real question is, why aren't skeptics respecting this?

Agreed...why would (one) a skeptic...go into a OOBE forum if you didn't believe it was possible? Just flame others and tell them to prove it. Let them have their own forum (link) where they can discuss amongst themselves. It's very counter productive when a user is seriously trying to learn to "project" and here comes the skeptic 3 replies later to tell him he's crazy. It really defeats the purpose of a site like this with such topics.

Originally Posted by ethen

Generally speaking, I agree with you. You are right in the sense that this website isn't about new age ideas or the supernatural. However, this specific forum is. It's a little nook, in an otherwise LD-orientated forum, where people who have such beliefs can discuss them without persecution. Or thats how its supposed to be, anyway.

It’s perfectly clear, as outline by Icedawg and the forums rules. The real question is, why aren't skeptics respecting this?

Did you even read his post? He didn't say a damn thing about the Beyond Dreaming forum, he said the site as a whole.

But the point still stands in the Beyond Dreaming forum as it does if Dreamviews was based on New Age ideals, and that is:

Even if this site was about new age ideals, which its too bad for you, its not, then you're saying skeptics have no place on it? Too me that looks like being purposefully ignorant, not wanting to hear what others have to say and afraid of someone that challenges you're beliefs, and finally when it comes right down to it, unaccepting of those with other beliefs. Thats just closed minded and ignorant, which ironically is what you're complaining about others being isn't it? Hm, funny how that works.

Even moreso, it brings forth the fact that being a skeptic of one thing doesn't mean you're a skeptic of another. So someone who might believe in something posted in Beyond Dreaming, might not believe something else. So what, by your logic they shouldn't be allowed to post there? Take your own advice and respect other's beliefs.

Frankly the way I see it if you're that bothered with people disagreeing with your beliefs or challenging your ideals, you might as well isolate yourself from the world. Or if you're so afraid of others arguing you're beliefs, why the hell put them out there to begin with?

Take a good look at these threads though too: "Does anyone believe in...", "Do you think...", "Do you agree with..." Are these trick questions? Are you not supposed to say you don't believe in the aforementioned subject?

What about the skeptics who want to believe? Who are looking for reason to believe? Its hardly fair, actually its ignorant to say that people have no place with you because they don't believe what you do. Its prejudice, its discriminating.

Once again this is being divided into a line of "Skeptics and Believers" which is stupid. Its just like Atheists vs Christians, in that the non-believers are the ones blamed, when the Believers are just as much as a problem calling non-believers ignorant and closed minded for not believing. Don't think that just because you believe in something someone else doesn't you're suddenly so much better.

Even moreso, it brings forth the fact that being a skeptic of one thing doesn't mean you're a skeptic of another. So someone who might believe in something posted in Beyond Dreaming, might not believe something else. So what, by your logic they shouldn't be allowed to post there? Take your own advice and respect other's beliefs.

Frankly the way I see it if you're that bothered with people disagreeing with your beliefs or challenging your ideals, you might as well isolate yourself from the world. Or if you're so afraid of others arguing you're beliefs, why the hell put them out there to begin with?

No, it would mean stay out of the thread, not the forum.


ps- thanks for changing my color.

Well one explaination of skeptics saying stuff is that someone stupid posts something in the wrong section of DV...and then later on it is moved, and thus the comments are still there, but it is now in BD.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Did you even read his post? He didn't say a damn thing about the Beyond Dreaming forum, he said the site as a whole.

After reading it a second time, I do see what you are saying. I think by the time I read the whole topic, all of that what had been said sort of blended together in my head (people quoting the rules for this forum and all). I could have sworn he was talking specifically about the beyond dreaming forum, but it seems I was mistaken. Sorry about that

Originally Posted by ExoByte

But the point still stands in the Beyond Dreaming forum as it does if Dreamviews was based on New Age ideals, and that is:

I’m not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that the "beyond dreaming" forum is no different than any other forum on Dreamviews when it comes to skeptics being able to participate? Because obviously that is not the case at all. So what point still stands? I’m confused

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Even moreso, it brings forth the fact that being a skeptic of one thing doesn't mean you're a skeptic of another. So someone who might believe in something posted in Beyond Dreaming, might not believe something else. So what, by your logic they shouldn't be allowed to post there? Take your own advice and respect other's beliefs.

No, that’s not what I meant. I don't mean that, if someone is a skeptic in one subject, that they are not allowed to post in ANY topic in the beyond dreaming subforum. It’s just that those who are skeptical of a subject are not supposed to get involved in that specific subject *IF* they are only trying to debate it's validity, be it passively or directly.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Frankly the way I see it if you're that bothered with people disagreeing with your beliefs or challenging your ideals, you might as well isolate yourself from the world. Or if you're so afraid of others arguing you're beliefs, why the hell put them out there to begin with?

I assume this is no longer applicable to me or the subject because 1.) I am not one of those people and 2.) this forum is meant for people to be able to discuss ideas, be them fantasy or otherwise, without the persecution of skeptics.

Only those of like mind are supposed to respond to a given topic, with the exception of those NOT looking to debate the validity of the ideas. So, skeptics can post in such topics, but not if it has anything to do with debating the validity of that subject. Get it?

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Take a good look at these threads though too: "Does anyone believe in...", "Do you think...", "Do you agree with..." Are these trick questions? Are you not supposed to say you don't believe in the aforementioned subject?

They shouldn't even be in this subforum to begin with, because a prerequisite of posting in a topic in this subforum is a belief in the said topic. Considering this, obviously topics like those should be in the "Extended Discussion" subforum, or maybe even Leisure Lounge...despite that they regard subjects that could be considered "beyond dreaming". Simply put, this subforum isn't meant for skeptics and believers to debate, period. What's so hard to understand about that? If a discussion is designed for a debate, it doesn't matter if its about Astral Projection or whatever, its doesn't belong in here.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

What about the skeptics who want to believe? Who are looking for reason to believe? Its hardly fair, actually its ignorant to say that people have no place with you because they don't believe what you do. Its prejudice, its discriminating.

I didn't make the rules, I’m just pointing them out. If a skeptic wants to believe, he can always just read what other people are saying. If a skeptic wants to ask questions, he can so long as they are not veiled attempts to criticize or debate the validity of the subject. Any other questions are fair game. However, if this skeptic wants a discussion where he and others are free to express their skepticism, then that person should make a sister topic in the extended discussion forums, or something.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Once again this is being divided into a line of "Skeptics and Believers" which is stupid. Its just like Atheists vs Christians, in that the non-believers are the ones blamed, when the Believers are just as much as a problem calling non-believers ignorant and closed minded for not believing. Don't think that just because you believe in something someone else doesn't you're suddenly so much better.

I don't. I’m just saying that, when it coems to this subforum, people who are skeptical of a given topic are not supposed to get involved in that topic if they are simply wanting to debate the validity of the topic. That’s it.

And to springboard off of ExoByte's points:

I think it's actually good for Dreamviews that "out there" ideas are challenged. It's good that un-proven ideas aren't allowed to flourish here without members speaking up and presenting a logical counter point and expecting those who make extra-ordinary claims to provide extra-ordinary proof.

The reason I say that is simple. We know that there are people who don't "believe in" lucid dreaming because they lump it in with all the new-age crap that's never been proven or demonstrated to any level of scientific satisfaction.

Well, how do you think it looks to those who visit this site and see all this stuff unchallenged? When we give the appearance that we - as a community - fall for mumbo-jumbo and don't even question it or expect some kind of facts and proof we give fuel to the doubters of lucid dreaming. When a site about lucid dreaming shows unquestioning support and tolerance for new age stuff then those who believe LDing is just more of the same BS are shown to be correct in their assumptions: as far as they are concerned.

In other words, it's healthy for DV as a community (and a source for credible LD talk and information) to display that we aren't a bunch of "fall-for-anything" yes-men. It's valuable to our collective cause to demonstrate that we support phenomena that actually has a credible base of facts and research. It shows that we - as a whole - are in support of "real" things, not hocus-pocus mumbo-jumbo. It shows that we are here to support and learn something that is based in actuality, not fantasy and wishful thinking. Yes, that does matter.

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

And to springboard off of ExoByte's points:

I think it's actually good for Dreamviews that "out there" ideas are challenged. It's good that un-proven ideas aren't allowed to flourish here without members speaking up and presenting a logical counter point and expecting those who make extra-ordinary claims to provide extra-ordinary proof.

I do to, but not in this one specific subforum. I think there should be a place where its ok for people to talk about things that maybe philosophical or hypothetical in nature. These discussions shouldn't have to check with science before being able to be discussed in peace. That's ridiculous and borderline zealotry (materialism).

Whats so wrong with people having a place where they are free to talk about something that isn't necessarily scientifically substantiated, and not have to worry about someone else hi-jacking the discussion with relentless "prove it" arguments? I mean, where’s the room for intellectual curiosity/speculation?

There is nothing wrong with a little philosophical chit-chat about something that may not even be true. In fact, a lot of people here could benefit from doing so.

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

The reason I say that is simple. We know that there are people who don't "believe in" lucid dreaming because they lump it in with all the new-age crap that's never been proven or demonstrated to any level of scientific satisfaction.

Well, how do you think it looks to those who visit this site and see all this stuff unchallenged? When we give the appearance that we - as a community - fall for mumbo-jumbo and don't even question it or expect some kind of facts and proof we give fuel to the doubters of lucid dreaming. When a site about lucid dreaming shows unquestioning support and tolerance for new age stuff then those who believe LDing is just more of the same BS are shown to be correct in their assumptions: as far as they are concerned.

Well if these people are too dimwitted to notice the "beyond dreaming" forum description, then they aren't really the type of people who's opinions should concern us.

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

In other words, it's healthy for DV as a community (and a source for credible LD talk and information) to display that we aren't a bunch of "fall-for-anything" yes-men. It's valuable to our collective cause to demonstrate that we support phenomena that actually has a credible base of facts and research. It shows that we - as a whole - are in support of "real" things, not hocus-pocus mumbo-jumbo. It shows that we are here to support and learn something that is based in actuality, not fantasy and wishful thinking. Yes, that does matter.

And that’s exactly why we have separate forums for lucid dreaming discussions and "other" discussions. They are two different, isolated things that shouldn't be lumped together. And anyone who is unable to see the difference between the two is one of those people I was talking about earlier.

lol. I find it just hilarious when people with (self-proclaimed) "open minds" want to censor criticism. Just because Lucid Dream is real and fun, doesn't mean you can just make up fairy tales and believe then without having to defend why you believe that.

In my opinion, the more rational, scientific and realistic Lucid Dreaming becomes, the more people will enjoy it. Why? Because a subject that has it's own sceptics takes AWAY the scepticism of the general public towards that subject, thus making them more open for it.

I think the short of Ethen's point is really narrowed down to forum specific. If some kid wants to learn how to "astrally project" should he have to skip and sift through the 3 pages of skepticim/bashing to find out how to astrally project. Or am I wrong there Ethen?

And yes...lucid dreaming does hold scientifically because it's been through major research and lab study/testing starting with S.LaBerge and many others pioneers in this field.

Basically, yes. What I said was specific to this subforum and only this subforum. Contrary to what Neruo said, having an open mind is more about simply (and momentarily) entertaining an idea or possibility whether or not you actually believe it. This is something a lot of people here seem unable to do. Its almost as if they aren't able to temporarily assume "what if", and instead stubbornly revert to "prove it" arguments...which is fine in the other 20+ forums here (or however many). But there should be a place where like minded people are free to discuss hypothetical subjects without persecution, so long as its in a place that is designed for such discussions (don't get me wrong).

Astral projection is a good example. Personally I don't believe it, but if people want to get into a deep discussion about it, seeing as it seem very similar to lucid dreaming, they should be able to do so without someone trying to hi-jack the thread for no other reason but because they couldn't stomach the idea that people could believe in something "unscientific". Talk about being closed minded. What about the entire discipline of Philosophy? Where exactly do you think science came from?? If such topic where anywhere else, I'd be all for criticism...in fact I'd probably be one of those doing the criticizing. But, one place should be designated for people who may want to move beyond the "is it proven" stage, and into more advanced hypotheticals. I don't see anything harmful about that, so long as that sort of talk stays confined to this subforum.

I’m sorry, but if you are unable to let people do this IN a forum designed for such discussions, it is probably you who has the narrow mind. And besides, the rules are clear regardless of how you feel. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by ethen

...But there should be a place where like minded people are free to discuss hypothetical subjects without persecution, so long as its in a place that is designed for such discussions (don't get me wrong).

I think the real problem people have is that such topics aren't discussed in a "what if" manner. They are usually presented as being fact when - in fact - there are NO facts to back up such claims.

Yeah, I can move things with my mind too! Shapeshift? Pfft, I do that on a regular basis. And of course I have made friends with beings from the planet Gorgon. Absurd? No, not at all and I forbid you to challenge my bullshit claims. This forum offers me diplomatic immunity. That's right, Dreamviews is all about supporting unchallenged bullshit

Then I suppose its too bad that this specific subforum isn't meant for those types of debates. This doesn't mean you can't debate such ideas, you just can't do it in here. Case closed. No need to be so melodramatic...

'Beyond Dreaming' was not created for debate, but rather, it exists for members who believe in the sort of topics that fit into its scope (such as OBEs, dream precognition, astral projection, etc.) to have peaceful discussions amongst themselves. I understand many of us don't believe in the material that fits within that forum (myself included) but enough people do that we have given them their own forum to discuss it. For those who doubt and would prefer debate the truth behind such phenomenon, I would suggest using other forums (such as 'Extended Discussion'), since, quite frankly, you're not discussing anything "beyond dreaming" but rather using science and natural laws instead.

This is just a reminder that we will be warning and banning users who refuse to acknowledge and respect this forum's intended purpose. Those people who don't believe in anything "beyond dreaming" really should be avoiding this particular forum altogether and instead using the rest of the board. Those people who cannot hold a civil and amicable discussion should frankly not be a member on this board.

Again I'd like to remind everyone of the above. We will ban as necessary to keep this place peaceful.


Move along if you don't like it.

You heard the man. If you want to challenge bullshit claims, then do it in the extended discussion subforum. Whats so hard to understand about this? I mean really, no one is saying you can't challenge the ideas brought up in the beyond dreaming forum, so enough with that excuse. There just happens to be a seperate place meant for that.

Stop whining.

Originally Posted by ethen

You heard the man. If you want to challenge bullshit claims, then do it in the extended discussion subforum. Whats so hard to understand about this?

This is the extended discussion forum. That's why I'm here arguing against bullshit. But, yes, I understand the rules.

Stop whining.

Don't take my whining from me; it's all I have

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

This is the extended discussion forum.

yes I realize. I was the one who had it moved here from the "beyond dreaming" subforum.

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

Don't take my whining from me; it's all I have

You can have it back when you finish your vegetables.

Originally Posted by Neruo

lol. I find it just hilarious when people with (self-proclaimed) "open minds" want to censor criticism. Just because Lucid Dream is real and fun, doesn't mean you can just make up fairy tales and believe then without having to defend why you believe that.

In my opinion, the more rational, scientific and realistic Lucid Dreaming becomes, the more people will enjoy it. Why? Because a subject that has it's own sceptics takes AWAY the scepticism of the general public towards that subject, thus making them more open for it.

I defend what I know and believe as much as I can via the internet.

I am a seeker. I seek truth. I don't make anything up, I explore the secrets of life, I look for the truth like any rational and intelligent person. The only reason I get mad at negative criticism is because it goes against one of my major philosophies: never throw away an idea just because there is lack of evidence. Just because there is no evidence doesn't mean it isn't there, and laughing at something because its not generally accepted in our truly limited knowledge of ourselves and the cosmos is foolish, because the art of true science is the exploration and discovery of new ideas and possibilities, and the search for a greater understanding of what we are and where we came from.

By the way, you spelled skeptic wrong...

Lucid dreaming is not a matter of belief.

It has been proved, henceforth can be viewed as fact, similarly to how hydrogen reacts with fire with an explosion.


Fact.

See now, I kind of like exploring the beyond dreaming stuff because I'm open to it, and i want to see evidence of stuff beyond the natural world in order to gain understanding.

But I'm not about to believe anything I hear, either. I want the evidence people have for why they believe what they believe, I want their argument, and I'm not bashing anyone about it. But I barely go to beyond dreaming so this is pretty null.

I would like to know why most topics in Beyond Dreaming say that you have to believe in order for the things to happen, but when people ask simple questions to help them "believe", or a better word is understand, it causes people to get on the questioner's case.

Originally Posted by wer

By the way, you spelled skeptic wrong...

Skeptic? Maybe that's English spelling, or American. I don't know what language my spelling-checker is, but "sceptic" has as little red bar under it as "irony".

The Irony being, that you are being sceptic about different ways of spelling a word.