Thread: Freedom of speec--, Oops.

I agree with you up until here.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Yes, comments like that are definitely insulting. Insulting people's countries like that is in a category with insulting people's races and sexual orientations. It is very insulting for you to say that my country is "bullying" by going through Hell on Earth to create a future with more freedom, safety, and happiness in the world.

Not half as insulting as meddling in other nations' affairs, throwing around your political weight to get the world to fall inline with the american view of "freedom" and invading vastly inferior countries on very questionable motives. Plus, these countries that America has "helped", seem to be falling into civil war and disrupting enitre regions, rather than being all prosperous and safe. If I take Iraq as an example, there is no denying that there would have been far less deaths there over the last few years had the US never entered the country. It seems that you guys have sparked the middle-eastern version of the powder keg, and I can't picture stability in the region anywhere in the foreseeable future.

especially when your country would have been taken over by the Nazis if we had not helped you save it.

Whaaat? Your country has never saved mine, in fact, it invaded it a few times. I'm from Canada by the way, you know, we were your first line of defense against a soviet nuclear attack for fifty years or so...

I know people in the military, I knew people in my family who fought in World War II and gave you the freedom to spew insults against nations of people you are talking to on the internet, and I really wish you could see things from my perspective and understand how spoiled and horribly ungrateful you sound.

I also have familly members that served in WW2, my grandfather for one. You don't need to emphasize how much we owe to the soldiers that saved us from oppression in the 40s. And while I don't think that most american soldiers these days are doing anything close to saving the world, I still admire them for performing there jobs despite all the adversity. Keep in mind that I am criticizing the politics and the people who make them, not the people who follow orders.

It would blow your mind if you really understood what people from my country have been through to give you what you have and enjoy and take for granted.

I doubt your country had mine in mind when it was doing whatever heroic thing you are talking about.

It is also very illogical for you to judge my country based on what a few cops did when somebody flipped out and resisted arrest.

I'm using this as an example, your country has done far worse things to tick me off (but you probably figured that out by now).

It has a great deal to do with how the world is right now.

Not really, different times, different politicians, different politics.

You are enjoying the benefits of the fact that 1.1 million Americans were either killed or injured in World War II, the most important fight of all time.

OK, if you want to bring statistics into this, then I'll mention that due to military deaths during the Second World War, my country lost 0.40% of its population while the United States lost 0.34% of there's (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ww2_casualties). That's keeping in mind that we only served in the europeen theatre against the Nazis, while the US had a large proportion of its forces in the pacific theatre, so the europeen death count is way less than what you stated. We fought for our freedom too, it wasnt given to us.

Without our involvement, the Nazis would have succeeded in taking over the rest of Europe and then the rest of the world.

They pretty much did. The US sat on its ass until Pearl Harbour, and if the UK hadn't won the Battle of Britain, then no amount of US intervention would have saved Europe.

If you know what they were planning to do, you can imagine what the state of the world would be like right now if they had succeeded. You would not be bad mouthing any governments on the internet right now, for one thing.

Let's get back to the fact that I'm criticizing today's politics, you can't justify your current actions with past deeds.

I also said that the United States led the fight to liberate WESTERN Europe. The Soviet Union took care of Eastern Europe. That is why when the war was over, we took control of Western Europe and the Soviets took control of Eastern Europe. The Soviets made Eastern Europe communist and under their control, and we let Western Europe be free and independent.

That doesn't change the fact that Germany would have won the war had it not been for the Soviets, yet America didn't give them the right to do what they wanted on account of their deeds. So why is it that when I criticize your foreign politics, your response is "We "saved" the world in WW2, be grateful and let us do what we want."?

And the Taliban did not save the world or even almost save the world.

My mistake, I meant the Afghan Mujahideen, which (led by Osama Bin Laden) crushed the Soviets in a severely demoralizing occupation, which was a catalyst for events that brought the end of the Soviet Union. Again, I bet you don't praise them as heros, even after their successful stand against foreign oppression.

Uhm, that's that for now I think.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Not half as insulting as meddling in other nations' affairs, throwing around your political weight to get the world to fall inline with the american view of "freedom" and invading vastly inferior countries on very questionable motives. Plus, these countries that America has "helped", seem to be falling into civil war and disrupting enitre regions, rather than being all prosperous and safe. If I take Iraq as an example, there is no denying that there would have been far less deaths there over the last few years had the US never entered the country. It seems that you guys have sparked the middle-eastern version of the powder keg, and I can't picture stability in the region anywhere in the foreseeable future.

The war in Iraq is about the long term future. It is not all about the first few years after the invasion. That is an inevitable transition period. Still, Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, was an international terrorist (I am so sick of having to explain this.), had used WMD's in a terrorist attack, violated our ceasefire for 12 years on mulitiple terrorism grounds, and lots of other things. His horrific government that did not allow people to participate in real elections and made people terrified of having their families tortured and killed for breathing the wrong way fell under the Bush doctrine and we had to overthrow them for many reasons. If you call that mere bullying, you are lying.

If you want to argue with me about this, find one of the Iraq threads in Extended Discuss, read all I have written, and address it.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Whaaat? Your country has never saved mine, in fact, it invaded it a few times. I'm from Canada by the way, you know, we were your first line of defense against a soviet nuclear attack for fifty years or so...

Oh, you are from Canada. No wonder. I could have sworn you said something somewhere about being British. Now that I know the truth, I am far less surprised by your anti-American venom. Canada is our fat little sister, and you know damn well you feel much safer than you would without our protection. Thank you for protecting us against the Soviet Union, badasses.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I also have familly members that served in WW2, my grandfather for one. You don't need to emphasize how much we owe to the soldiers that saved us from oppression in the 40s. And while I don't think that most american soldiers these days are doing anything close to saving the world, I still admire them for performing there jobs despite all the adversity. Keep in mind that I am criticizing the politics and the people who make them, not the people who follow orders.

Nice to see that. But you are still insulting Americans by making blanket statements about our country because of what a few campus cops did. It is not like they were head generals or senators in the federal government.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I doubt your country had mine in mind when it was doing whatever heroic thing you are talking about.

They had the future of the entire world in mind. If they didn't have yours in mind specifically, it is because we often forget you exist.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I'm using this as an example, your country has done far worse things to tick me off (but you probably figured that out by now).

Like being much smaller yet worlds more powerful. That seems to get the goat of a lot of you. It's always cute when people despise the hand that protects them.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Not really, different times, different politicians, different politics.

If the Nazis had taken over the world, what would have made them lose their power? A world of countries couldn't stop them, but zero opposing countries could? And you do know what they wanted to do to all non-whites, gays, crippled, and opposition, right? Their plan was to wipe them all out, like they had done to six million jews. Would the dead have magically grown back from extinction because it is a few decades later?

Originally Posted by Spartiate

OK, if you want to bring statistics into this, then I'll mention that due to military deaths during the Second World War, my country lost 0.40% of its population while the United States lost 0.34% of there's (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ww2_casualties). That's keeping in mind that we only served in the europeen theatre against the Nazis, while the US had a large proportion of its forces in the pacific theatre, so the europeen death count is way less than what you stated. We fought for our freedom too, it wasnt given to us.

I appreciate the Hell out of that, but let's face it. You were not that important of a force. The United States was necessary in driving the Nazis out of Western Europe. Canada helped, but we could have done it without you, just not as easily.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

They pretty much did. The US sat on its ass until Pearl Harbour, and if the UK hadn't won the Battle of Britain, then no amount of US intervention would have saved Europe.

"Pretty much did." That is what happened instead of "did". But yes, Britain was an awesome and necessary ally in WWII.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Let's get back to the fact that I'm criticizing today's politics, you can't justify your current actions with past deeds.

I didn't try to. I said you shouldn't be so quick to talk about the United States like we are school yard bullies and nothing else, especially based on some non-federal campus cops. You used the word "bully" to describe us earlier. If the United States were a bully, there would be another name for Canada. We would call it the United States.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

That doesn't change the fact that Germany would have won the war had it not been for the Soviets, yet America didn't give them the right to do what they wanted on account of their deeds. So why is it that when I criticize your foreign politics, your response is "We "saved" the world in WW2, be grateful and let us do what we want."?

You are misconstruing my words, which is very typical of America haters. I never said anything about being able to do whatever we want. I said you should show some appreciation, which you did not do at all when you spewed your sick hate against us in your post before last. I never said the United States single handedly won World War II. I said it could not have been done without us.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

My mistake, I meant the Afghan Mujahideen, which (led by Osama Bin Laden) crushed the Soviets in a severely demoralizing occupation, which was a catalyst for events that brought the end of the Soviet Union. Again, I bet you don't praise them as heros, even after their successful stand against foreign oppression.

They saved Afghanistan from the Soviets, but they did not save the world. Then the Taliban ruled Afghanistan with far worse oppression than the Soviets would have. We, on the other hand, saved the world. You are welcome.

If Canadians and others would stop saying such absurd crap against us, we would have plenty of respect for you. We love your landscape and your comedians and musicians, like Joni Mitchell and Neil Young. But when you dog us for our military history, it is very obvious to us why you are doing it, and we start talking like I just did in this post. We would never even think about your military standing if Canadians like you would stop spewing your hate and making yourselves look pathetic.

Universal Mind, notice how I'm still writting in a calm and civilized matter, I implore you to do the same. Could it be that I'm not your typical american flag burner? I was hoping that maybe you would figure out why people dislike the States so much, but instead, you just went and flamed me in the typical american way. People here and abroad just want to coexist with you without having to suffer your influence in our daily lives. Now if you don't mind, put your gloves back on so we can do this the right way. Frankly, I think you are deluding yourself if you think that your country's current foreign agenda has anything to do with the promotion of world peace and freedom. That being said, what gives you the right to meddle with other nations' affairs? And I swear to god if your answer is "we saved the world",...

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Universal Mind, notice how I'm still writting in a calm and civilized matter, I implore you to do the same. Could it be that I'm not your typical american flag burner? I was hoping that maybe you would figure out why people dislike the States so much, but instead, you just went and flamed me in the typical american way. People here and abroad just want to coexist with you without having to suffer your influence in our daily lives. Now if you don't mind, put your gloves back on so we can do this the right way. Frankly, I think you are deluding yourself if you think that your country's current foreign agenda has anything to do with the promotion of world peace and freedom. That being said, what gives you the right to meddle with other nations' affairs? And I swear to god if your answer is "we saved the world",...

You call my country a "bully" against the world, misconstrue things I said so you can riducule me and further insult my country, claim the people who fought and died from my country in WWII didn't give a damn about Canada, and tell me I am "deluding" myself, and you still want to play the self-righteous card by acting like you have been civil? I'm not buying it. I explained the necessity of sometimes meddling in other countries' affairs (like Canada did in World War II), particularly the ones that try to take over the world and ruin it and the ones that use WMD's for terrorist purposes and could get WMD's into the hands of suicide bombers that want to make my country extinct and then the rest of the West. Now counter the points I made in my last post.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Now counter the points I made in my last post.

If you wish, but I must mention that this argument has lost much of its value to me, arguing with a patriotic american is like asking a blind man to see. It would be far too simple for you to give humility a try and start clean like I did, free of childish insults and the like, but no, you're american, better to die than to lose face! Anyways...

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The war in Iraq is about the long term future. It is not all about the first few years after the invasion. That is an inevitable transition period. Still, Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, was an international terrorist (I am so sick of having to explain this.), had used WMD's in a terrorist attack, violated our ceasefire for 12 years on mulitiple terrorism grounds, and lots of other things. His horrific government that did not allow people to participate in real elections and made people terrified of having their families tortured and killed for breathing the wrong way fell under the Bush doctrine and we had to overthrow them for many reasons. If you call that mere bullying, you are lying.

If you want to argue with me about this, find one of the Iraq threads in Extended Discuss, read all I have written, and address it.

A few things, first of all, Iraq was an example among many others, I used it because it is the most popular one right now. Second of all Hussein may have been pretty bad, but the deaths under his reign definately didn't climb into the hundreds of thousands. You don't seem to like him now, but you were fully backing him in the 80s. Only when he screwed you over in Kuwait did his government become "horrific". The bullying I was referring to was more along the lines of the US putting pressure on other countries to participate in the invasion. Significant diplomatic strain was created because countries refused to back up the US invasion.

Oh, you are from Canada. No wonder. I could have sworn you said something somewhere about being British. Now that I know the truth, I am far less surprised by your anti-American venom. Canada is our fat little sister, and you know damn well you feel much safer than you would without our protection. Thank you for protecting us against the Soviet Union, badasses.

How mature of you, and you think what I said was insulting? I called your country's mistakes, you blatantly stereotyped mine. And I do thank you for protecting us against are many enemies, fortunately for us, we have none, so your work is kind of easy! Once you actually defend us from something, you can say that you're our watchdog. And you didn't like our protection? Then maybe we should have torn down all our radar systems and air force bases in the arctic, it's not like you needed them.

Nice to see that. But you are still insulting Americans by making blanket statements about our country because of what a few campus cops did. It is not like they were head generals or senators in the federal government.

Glad you understand that, now can you see why it is wrong for America to generalize foreign affairs?

They had the future of the entire world in mind. If they didn't have yours in mind specifically, it is because we often forget you exist.

Uhm, I don't want to risk putting my foot in my mouth until you tell me what event you're talking about here. And if canadians are so inexistant to you, maybe we should cut off our supplies of natural resources to the States for a few days, it's probably painful for you to hear, but there is no way the States would survive without us (vice versa too).

Like being much smaller yet worlds more powerful. That seems to get the goat of a lot of you. It's always cute when people despise the hand that protects them.

You think I'm jealous of the States? In many ways, it is a godsend for a low population naturaly rich country like mine to be next to a heavily populated and powerful country like yours, but if we were just good trading partners, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead, your country is knee deep into my country's politics, often influencing the outcome of legislation. You frequently refute our claims to territorial waters and use them to illegally ferry warships. Due to air currents, all of the crap spewed by your dirty unregulated power plants falls in the form of acid rain over most of eastern Canada. My grudge against the States has nothing to do with petty rivalries,
those kinds of things are best left for sports, not politics.

If the Nazis had taken over the world, what would have made them lose their power? A world of countries couldn't stop them, but zero opposing countries could? And you do know what they wanted to do to all non-whites, gays, crippled, and opposition, right? Their plan was to wipe them all out, like they had done to six million jews. Would the dead have magically grown back from extinction because it is a few decades later?

So let me get this right, you're comparing America's current military involvement around the world with WW2?

I appreciate the Hell out of that, but let's face it. You were not that important of a force. The United States was necessary in driving the Nazis out of Western Europe. Canada helped, but we could have done it without you, just not as easily.

You're right, I just wanted to make sure you understood that we were ready and willing to fight for our beliefs, wether or not the americans would have decided to join the war. It was Commonwealth pilots that made the difference during the Battle of Britain, which we barely won. This was long before America ever set foot into Europe.

"Pretty much did." That is what happened instead of "did". But yes, Britain was an awesome and necessary ally in WWII.

My point was that the US didn't decide to intervene until long after the start of the war. The UK and its Commonwealth stood alone against the might of the Nazi war machine while the US looked on. It could very easily had gone the other way, and all of Europe would have been conquered while the US stood by.

I didn't try to. I said you shouldn't be so quick to talk about the United States like we are school yard bullies and nothing else, especially based on some non-federal campus cops. You used the word "bully" to describe us earlier. If the United States were a bully, there would be another name for Canada. We would call it the United States.

At this point, we are so far beyond the speech incident, we're scratching at the root of the problem. And by the way, "If anybody judges the United States based on what a few officers did in the situation I just described and not on the fact that we led the fight to drive the Nazis out of western Europe when they were trying to take over the world" kind of refutes what you just said. You are asking me to judge the United States based on its exploits during WW2 rather than its current situation. Even you must admit that today's America isn't the same as 1940s America. Also, it's not like you didn't try to take over Canada in the 19th century. America even had a warplan against us until the outbreak of WW2. I do find it interesting though that one of Canada's nicknames is the 51st state...

You are misconstruing my words, which is very typical of America haters. I never said anything about being able to do whatever we want. I said you should show some appreciation, which you did not do at all when you spewed your sick hate against us in your post before last. I never said the United States single handedly won World War II. I said it could not have been done without us.

Oh sorry, I didn't catch any of that, I was to busy burning an american flag. I still don't get what I said that offended you so much, it's not like anything was without basis. Now how about you stop using how many of your countrymen died in a 60 year old war as an analogy for what is going on right now. WW2 has barely anything to do with today's events. If all you wish is appreciation for your veterans, then I shall give it to you and then some.

They saved Afghanistan from the Soviets, but they did not save the world. Then the Taliban ruled Afghanistan with far worse oppression than the Soviets would have. We, on the other hand, saved the world. You are welcome.

The Soviet afghan war was pretty much the undoing of the USSR, so you can say that they had an integral part in destroying the Soviet Union. My point was that views on these groups are relative, they are heroic when fighting with you and they are evil when fighting against you. Like the saying goes, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. You may think you saved the world in your eyes, but from another point of view, you are simply meddling where you do not belong.

If Canadians and others would stop saying such absurd crap against us, we would have plenty of respect for you. We love your landscape and your comedians and musicians, like Joni Mitchell and Neil Young. But when you dog us for our military history, it is very obvious to us why you are doing it, and we start talking like I just did in this post. We would never even think about your military standing if Canadians like you would stop spewing your hate and making yourselves look pathetic.

Nothing I have said has been without basis. We aren't looking for respect, just a little privacy, stop poking us and we'll stop twitching. As I have stated, I don't really care about your military history, it isn't relavent to today's problems. What your soldiers (and everybody elses) did 60 years ago was admirable, but hardly similar to current issues. In fact, I believe that things will go much smoother if WW2 wasn't brought up again. And I wasn't aware that our respective armed forces were being criticized, I thought we were discussing your country's foreign policies. I see you ended your post with an insult, well I would like to clarify that my father is stronger than your father.

I thought I'd point out that after weeks of stepping out of these debates "Universal Mind" talks in so many circles it's dizzying. Just be forewarned, It'd be wise to rethink wasting your time stepping into the vacuous void of a debate with UM.

Now that I think of it...his avatar makes a lot of sense in describing his debating method. It's kind like a spirograph or blackhole from which no light or rationale can escape.




[Edit: On topic, I think the boy had it coming by essentially pulling a filibuster without the pulpit to do so. You can't just spout your mouth whenever and however you feel like it. You gotta be smart about it, which is exactly why he got tazed. He didn't think. We have freedom of speech, yes, but not the freedom to run amok. Just like all people, you would need permits and planning in order to protest, or go on that kind of diatribe. Perhaps, the use of the tazer was excessive and a sign of the times, but the guy just wouldn't shut up or calm down after being escorted away so it serves him right for not picking the right battles, I think.]

Originally Posted by Spartiate

If you wish, but I must mention that this argument has lost much of its value to me, arguing with a patriotic american is like asking a blind man to see. It would be far too simple for you to give humility a try and start clean like I did, free of childish insults and the like, but no, you're american, better to die than to lose face! Anyways...

How could you possibly miss hypocrisy that is that enormous? Also, stop shutting your mind to the possibility that I want to understand your view. I have been on-point the whole way. You, on the other hand, keep running off on bizarre tangents about your mere assumptions of what I believe. I disagree with my government on a lot of things, and I am annoyed by the Pledge of Allegience and our national anthem. I have also burned a few flags because I think it is hilarious that people want to make it illegal to do that, so go ahead and drop the blind patriotism assumption right away.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

A few things, first of all, Iraq was an example among many others, I used it because it is the most popular one right now. Second of all Hussein may have been pretty bad, but the deaths under his reign definately didn't climb into the hundreds of thousands. You don't seem to like him now, but you were fully backing him in the 80s. Only when he screwed you over in Kuwait did his government become "horrific". The bullying I was referring to was more along the lines of the US putting pressure on other countries to participate in the invasion. Significant diplomatic strain was created because countries refused to back up the US invasion.

Alliance is not proof of liking, and the Hussein regime really went bad after that. His killings did climb into the hundreds of thousands, even with the mass graves alone. But that alone would not have been enough for the war. There were many reasons for it. We did not bully any countries to help us. We just highly encouraged them because what we are doing is in the interest of the entire world.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

How mature of you, and you think what I said was insulting? I called your country's mistakes, you blatantly stereotyped mine. And I do thank you for protecting us against are many enemies, fortunately for us, we have none, so your work is kind of easy! Once you actually defend us from something, you can say that you're our watchdog. And you didn't like our protection? Then maybe we should have torn down all our radar systems and air force bases in the arctic, it's not like you needed them.

You do have enemies. The Islamofascists hate your guts and want you dead as dirt. But the protection I was mainly talking about was the protection against invaders who want to take over countries, which nobody would dare do to Canada now that the United States is so powerful. Look at how the world worked before we existed. Take over happened all the time. I can assure you that if dictators didn't believe we would tear them to shreds, Canada would be called something else right this very second.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Glad you understand that, now can you see why it is wrong for America to generalize foreign affairs?

I have no idea what you are talking about there.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Uhm, I don't want to risk putting my foot in my mouth until you tell me what event you're talking about here. And if canadians are so inexistant to you, maybe we should cut off our supplies of natural resources to the States for a few days, it's probably painful for you to hear, but there is no way the States would survive without us (vice versa too).

The soldiers were thinking about saving the world from the Nazis, not just the United States, and that thought had a lot to do with their morale. The Canada crack was a joke. It concerned the fact that you do a Hell of a lot more thinking about us than we do about you. An American comedian once said that she talked to a Canadian who asked her what Americans think of Canadians, and her response was, "We don't."

Originally Posted by Spartiate

You think I'm jealous of the States? In many ways, it is a godsend for a low population naturaly rich country like mine to be next to a heavily populated and powerful country like yours, but if we were just good trading partners, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead, your country is knee deep into my country's politics, often influencing the outcome of legislation. You frequently refute our claims to territorial waters and use them to illegally ferry warships. Due to air currents, all of the crap spewed by your dirty unregulated power plants falls in the form of acid rain over most of eastern Canada. My grudge against the States has nothing to do with petty rivalries,
those kinds of things are best left for sports, not politics.

I really wish people would keep that stuff to sports, but they don't. The truth is that people do despise my country for our power and wealth, just like they despise schools and individuals for their success. I really wish the entire world would adopt the systems we used to get us where we are. I don't want us to stand out as the most successful. I want everybody to be successful, and everybody can be.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

So let me get this right, you're comparing America's current military involvement around the world with WW2?

No. I could do that, but I have not done that in this thread.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

My point was that the US didn't decide to intervene until long after the start of the war. The UK and its Commonwealth stood alone against the might of the Nazi war machine while the US looked on. It could very easily had gone the other way, and all of Europe would have been conquered while the US stood by.

That shows how cautious we are about something as serious as war, contrary to much public opinion. But I agree that we were way too cautious about entering WWII and should have done it much earlier. I think pretty much all of our current military leaders agree with that.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

At this point, we are so far beyond the speech incident, we're scratching at the root of the problem. And by the way, "If anybody judges the United States based on what a few officers did in the situation I just described and not on the fact that we led the fight to drive the Nazis out of western Europe when they were trying to take over the world" kind of refutes what you just said. You are asking me to judge the United States based on its exploits during WW2 rather than its current situation. Even you must admit that today's America isn't the same as 1940s America. Also, it's not like you didn't try to take over Canada in the 19th century. America even had a warplan against us until the outbreak of WW2. I do find it interesting though that one of Canada's nicknames is the 51st state...

I was saying that your earlier comments showed a lack of gratitude and that a few campus cops who probably make a little above minumum wage and would be working in diners if they got fired are not the people to judge the U.S. on. I gave you a better group of people to do that with and mentioned that our history is reason for you to show respect and not act like a calmer version of the guy in the taser video.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Oh sorry, I didn't catch any of that, I was to busy burning an american flag. I still don't get what I said that offended you so much, it's not like anything was without basis. Now how about you stop using how many of your countrymen died in a 60 year old war as an analogy for what is going on right now. WW2 has barely anything to do with today's events. If all you wish is appreciation for your veterans, then I shall give it to you and then some.

How many different ways are you going to misinterpret my point? I have listed your offensive comments, which I have argued are false.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

The Soviet afghan war was pretty much the undoing of the USSR, so you can say that they had an integral part in destroying the Soviet Union. My point was that views on these groups are relative, they are heroic when fighting with you and they are evil when fighting against you. Like the saying goes, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. You may think you saved the world in your eyes, but from another point of view, you are simply meddling where you do not belong.

I majorly disagree with you on that. The arms race in the midst of communism was the undoing of the Soviet Union. Ronald Reagan gets the MVP award, not Usama Bin Laden. BL just gets a participation ribbon.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Nothing I have said has been without basis. We aren't looking for respect, just a little privacy, stop poking us and we'll stop twitching. As I have stated, I don't really care about your military history, it isn't relavent to today's problems. What your soldiers (and everybody elses) did 60 years ago was admirable, but hardly similar to current issues. In fact, I believe that things will go much smoother if WW2 wasn't brought up again. And I wasn't aware that our respective armed forces were being criticized, I thought we were discussing your country's foreign policies. I see you ended your post with an insult, well I would like to clarify that my father is stronger than your father.

Oh, you haven't used any insults, so I can't imagine why I would use any. You are so righteous even though you are not. Are you a Baptist preacher by any chance? I am tired of correcting you on your misconceptions about my WWII point, so I am not going to do it again here. You know what it is by now.

Originally Posted by Mystic7

haha the war in Iraq is definitely a mistake no matter how you look at it. My conclusion is that UniversalMind has some weird intentions for debating. Every time I try to talk to him he is unreasonable and others would have experienced the same effect.

Every time I corner you, which is every time you have the balls to try to debate me, you resort to posting silly pictures. Calling me unreasonable must be really convenient when you can't prove it.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

How could you possibly miss hypocrisy that is that enormous? Also, stop shutting your mind to the possibility that I want to understand your view. I have been on-point the whole way. You, on the other hand, keep running off on bizarre tangents about your mere assumptions of what I believe. I disagree with my government on a lot of things, and I am annoyed by the Pledge of Allegience and our national anthem. I have also burned a few flags because I think it is hilarious that people want to make it illegal to do that, so go ahead and drop the blind patriotism assumption right away.

Very well, I will take you more seriously, but only if you drop the assumption that I'm some disgruntled misfit that's out to get you or your country.

Alliance is not proof of liking, and the Hussein regime really went bad after that. His killings did climb into the hundreds of thousands, even with the mass graves alone. But that alone would not have been enough for the war. There were many reasons for it. We did not bully any countries to help us. We just highly encouraged them because what we are doing is in the interest of the entire world.

I see your point, my enemy's enemy is my friend, right? Nonetheless, one day you were supporting them, and the next you were calling them evil. The government of Iraq had committed many atrocities while they were still backed by the US. It's a bit hypocritical to suddenly denounce Iraq as evil just because it switched sides, but lets not get to caught up into this, as I said, Iraq was just an example. As for bullying, how about all that controversial pressure you put on countries like Pakistan in the days following 9/11? Or what about that whole "we hate France" phase when they declined to participate in the invasion of Iraq?

You do have enemies. The Islamofascists hate your guts and want you dead as dirt. But the protection I was mainly talking about was the protection against invaders who want to take over countries, which nobody would dare do to Canada now that the United States is so powerful. Look at how the world worked before we existed. Take over happened all the time. I can assure you that if dictators didn't believe we would tear them to shreds, Canada would be called something else right this very second.

A big part of the reason that islamic extremists dislike Canada is because we (mostly) support the US. Nonetheless, the US keeps blaming Canada as an entry point for terrorists, yet we managed to prevent a major homegrown terrorist attack that could have been on par with the London or Madrid bombings (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/to...lot/index.html), whereas you failed to prevent 9/11. And as for invasions, Canada has never been invaded for the same reason that Australia or Greenland have never been invaded, because of its harsh climate and isolation. There is no country today that could launch and support an invasion of Canada (except the US). Come to think about it, one of the reasons that the US is so powerful is its geographical location in North America.

I have no idea what you are talking about there.

That was my original point. You accuse me of generalizing the situation that happened on the campus into something that applied to the whole country. Yet the States do the same thing all the time with events that happen abroad, I'm just saying that it's a two way street.

The soldiers were thinking about saving the world from the Nazis, not just the United States, and that thought had a lot to do with their morale. The Canada crack was a joke. It concerned the fact that you do a Hell of a lot more thinking about us than we do about you. An American comedian once said that she talked to a Canadian who asked her what Americans think of Canadians, and her response was, "We don't."

OK, well if you're talking about the Second World War, then that brings me back to one of my old arguments, which is that you can't justify your current political actions with past deeds. Everyone did what they could back then to fight for their values. The reason that canadians think so much more about americans than the opposite is that we feel your influence in our everyday lives, a lot. One of our prime ministers compared relations between our countries to "sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I can call it that, one is affected by every twitch and grunt." So when the US goes off and does something stupid, it pisses us off.

I really wish people would keep that stuff to sports, but they don't. The truth is that people do despise my country for our power and wealth, just like they despise schools and individuals for their success. I really wish the entire world would adopt the systems we used to get us where we are. I don't want us to stand out as the most successful. I want everybody to be successful, and everybody can be.

People like those you stated do exist, here and abroad, but I am not one of them. I just mentioned a few reasons I have for being angry at your government, it's the interventionist position on foreign policies that your country takes that bothers me. Also, I have my qualms with America's internal politics, but it is not my place to debate them. However, I don't think that the US should be used as a model for other countries, there's a reason you're going through a recession and that your people are losing faith in their government.

No. I could do that, but I have not done that in this thread.

OK, then let's drop this point.

That shows how cautious we are about something as serious as war, contrary to much public opinion. But I agree that we were way too cautious about entering WWII and should have done it much earlier. I think pretty much all of our current military leaders agree with that.

The fact that you were overly cautious in WW2 doesn't necessarily mean that you aren't a little trigger happy in the 21st century.

I was saying that your earlier comments showed a lack of gratitude and that a few campus cops who probably make a little above minumum wage and would be working in diners if they got fired are not the people to judge the U.S. on. I gave you a better group of people to do that with and mentioned that our history is reason for you to show respect and not act like a calmer version of the guy in the taser video.

When I made those comments, I was thinking about America's present actions which irritated me, not every action it has taken since its inception. When you think of Britain today, do you see an ally or an oppressive enemy?

How many different ways are you going to misinterpret my point? I have listed your offensive comments, which I have argued are false.

Please list them again, just to make sure. Be certain that there is only one possible way to interpret them.

I majorly disagree with you on that. The arms race in the midst of communism was the undoing of the Soviet Union. Ronald Reagan gets the MVP award, not Usama Bin Laden. BL just gets a participation ribbon.

OK, here we have a difference of opinion, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I believe that the Soviet Afghan War (which was pretty much the Soviet equivalent of the Vietnam War) severely depleted public morale and tolerance for the USSR. It had a major impact on the break-up of the Soviet Union. In any case, do you understand my point about how "saving the world" is subjective?

Oh, you haven't used any insults, so I can't imagine why I would use any. You are so righteous even though you are not. Are you a Baptist preacher by any chance? I am tired of correcting you on your misconceptions about my WWII point, so I am not going to do it again here. You know what it is by now.

OK, for the sake of argument, I'm going to ignore all that unproductive sarcasm. It's not like I hate America and its people, nor am I trying to dictate what is right and what is wrong. I'm a perfectly reasonable guy that is open to other people's point of view, as long as they don't force it on others. If I met you in the streets tomorrow, I would shake your hand and be more than happy to talk with you, not go on some rant about how I dislike America. Your country isn't making too many friends right now, and your foreign politics are pissing off a lot of people. Doesn't it bother you that people around the world have such a negative opinion of americans? Wouldn't your time be better spent trying to fix your public image rather than infuriating people further with your one-sided view of things (referring to your country, not you)? But that's America's problem, it speaks but it doesn't listen, which is pretty much the stereotype for americans, loud and obnoxious. If it's not the american way, it's not the right way.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Frankly, I think you are deluding yourself if you think that your country's current foreign agenda has anything to do with the promotion of world peace and freedom. That being said, what gives you the right to meddle with other nations' affairs? And I swear to god if your answer is "we saved the world",...

I live in an area surrounded by 2 of the biggest military bases. I talk to people in the military every single day. ALL of them support the war on terror/iraq and they ALL agree that nobody can understand how shitty it is over there and how terrible some of the people are there. Actually make that MOST of the people. How can you say we are doing the wrong thing when you live in Canada, and don't know anything that's going on? lol

It is definatly a necessity to continue this war if you want the next generation to live in peace, period. We are doing nothing but helping the good people and stopping the bad. It is sad that most people don't see this because they are too liberal and think everything is good. They think things like poverty and world hunger and "global warming" bullshit is more important. I believe that civilization and peace is more important. And it's true if you want peace prepare for war. 'Course Canada won't help with that, but if someone were to wage war against yall, America would surely save your ass.

What is your opposition for the war? All you go on saying is how it is bad we are and how we are bullying or w/e. What is your actual reason for believing we are wrong? I think trying to rid the world of terrorists and evil people, and trying to establish decent countries is a good enough reason to be for it.

Lol, you think we never saved your country? Your country wouldn't exist without us wtf are you thinking?

PS: my neighbor was just killed from a roadside bombing in july. And btw, We are saving the world.

Originally Posted by Michael

I live in an area surrounded by 2 of the biggest military bases. I talk to people in the military every single day. ALL of them support the war on terror/iraq and they ALL agree that nobody can understand how shitty it is over there and how terrible some of the people are there. Actually make that MOST of the people. How can you say we are doing the wrong thing when you live in Canada, and don't know anything that's going on? lol

It is definatly a necessity to continue this war if you want the next generation to live in peace, period. We are doing nothing but helping the good people and stopping the bad. It is sad that most people don't see this because they are too liberal and think everything is good. They think things like poverty and world hunger and "global warming" bullshit is more important. I believe that civilization and peace is more important. And it's true if you want peace prepare for war. 'Course Canada won't help with that, but if someone were to wage war against yall, America would surely save your ass.

What is your opposition for the war? All you go on saying is how it is bad we are and how we are bullying or w/e. What is your actual reason for believing we are wrong? I think trying to rid the world of terrorists and evil people, and trying to establish decent countries is a good enough reason to be for it.

Lol, you think we never saved your country? Your country wouldn't exist without us wtf are you thinking?

PS: my neighbor was just killed from a roadside bombing in july. And btw, We are saving the world.

Of course they support the war, it's their job! And it is definately not the soldiers that I am criticizing, but rather the policy makers. Unfortunately, I think that now that you have gotten yourselves into this mess, you are obligated to see it to the end, so I am definately for the continuation of the occupation of Iraq. The place has become such a violence ridden warzone since the US invasion, that to leave it now would be to condemn it to certain chaos for the next few decades. As for going there in the first place, offer me some irrefutable proof that invading Iraq was necessary to counter an immediate threat. The war on terror started off great in Afghanistan. All you need to do is drop a few laser guided bombs on key terrorist targets (you guys supposedly have the best intelligence service in the business). But then people started occupying these places and the shit hit the fan. Now you find yourselves in an unwinnable war against an invisible foe. And if that wasn't bad enough, you sparked the worst civil war in the area since the Middle Ages.

Hehe, I guarantee you that global warming will be cooking this planet before there will be peace in the Middle-East. Anyways, I'm sick of all this America protects Canada stuff. Can anyone name one time where the States saved my country from an invasion? Due to the conditions of NATO, we are obligated to assist the United States if they are attacked, but nothing obliges us to follow them if they feel like running off into their own little private war. What if Canada decided to invade Jamaica all of a sudden "just because", do you really think we would have the States supporting us?

My opposition to the war is in the way it is being fought. If it was just about the terrorists, then like I said, drop a bomb and that's that. But when you take control of countries and threaten those who don't support you, you can't help to think that there are some kind of ulterior motives at play. I honestly can't believe how stupid it was for american strategists to get themselves into another guerilla warfare scenario, didn't they learn their lesson from Viet-Nam? You just can't win a war like that, it's not conventional. So instead, people sit around and people die, needlessly.

Please get your facts straight about my country before you pretend to know things about it.

I'm sorry about your neighbor. And, unfortunately, despite your opinion, to many people you are making the world far worse.

haha the war in Iraq is definitely a mistake no matter how you look at it. My conclusion is that Universal Mind has some weird intentions for debating. I find it pretty disturbing he does not care that they lied and that is proven, to get America into that mess. And every time I try to talk to him he is unreasonable and others would have experienced the same effect. What kind of disturbed person supports the war in Iraq? Even Bush said that he will take troops out soon. Hell even bush admits that things have not gone as planned. Most people in the white house already understand the war cannot be won! If the war cannot be won. Then how is that beneficial? How dumb do you have to be. Bush knows what everyone wants to hear, is to get the troops out. But again he's blatantly deceiving with these lies as usual.

Originally Posted by Mystic7

haha the war in Iraq is definitely a mistake no matter how you look at it. My conclusion is that Universal Mind has some weird intentions for debating. I find it pretty disturbing he does not care that they lied and that is proven, to get America into that mess. And every time I try to talk to him he is unreasonable and others would have experienced the same effect. What kind of disturbed person supports the war in Iraq? Even Bush said that he will take troops out soon. Hell even bush admits that things have not gone as planned. Most people in the white house already understand the war cannot be won! If the war cannot be won. Then how is that beneficial? How dumb do you have to be. Bush knows what everyone wants to hear, is to get the troops out. But again he's blatantly deceiving with these lies as usual.

I am seriously starting to question your age.

I know you back down to pretty much every point I ever make, but I have a challenge for you. Explain how reporting the highly relevant intelligence of six governments and the United Nations is "lying". Do you think you can do that? Posting a silly picture does not qualify.