Thread: "The US Does Not Torture"

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I have no idea what you're talking about, but if you're saying this country is going fascist right before our eyes, I agree.

Once again it's not that it's going fascist, so much as changing conditions, one of them namely the internet, exposes the fascism present as it begins to struggle over the people to maintain the control. In the meantime it is failing more and more every day. Youtube is a devastating blow to television. And they bleed funds in a desperate struggle to attempt to hide this problem as a horrific drop in viewers and loss of revenue, threatens the very source they used to perpetrate their content.

People may not understand what is happening or how good it is and what change is coming. But I can say that the crumbling of the old fascist empire is now certain. You are seeing a stable systematic destruction of fascism.

While this may appear as an increase in fascism to some. It is only because where it was not seen before. Now it becomes obvious.

Originally Posted by Mystic7

While this may appear as an increase in fascism to some. It is only because where it was not seen before. Now it becomes obvious.

That is a very optimistic way of looking at it and I hope you're right.

What would be the best way to get terrorists to reveal terrorist attacks in the making?

Although I'm no expert, I've read several accounts from interrogators, both current and former, that the most effective method is to gain the favor of the potential informant, by such ordinary means as conversation, having lunch with him, and interrogating him non-aggressively every day.

If one wants to get information quickly, to prevent an imminent attack, torture can provide information quickly, but it's a huge gamble that it will be accurate. If it isn't, the prisoner isn't likely to provide any reliable intelligence all, no matter what else is attempted.

The best information for preventing imminent attacks does not come from prisoners, but from civilians and informants sympathetic to us, who can provide reliable information and provide it quickly.

yeah of course they torture. there are fucking pictures of it.

Originally Posted by R.D.735

Although I'm no expert, I've read several accounts from interrogators, both current and former, that the most effective method is to gain the favor of the potential informant, by such ordinary means as conversation, having lunch with him, and interrogating him non-aggressively every day.

I don't think that is the majority view of interrogators. It seems like it would be really bizarre if somebody who wants to commit suicide in order to kill you would tell you about his plans just because you had lunch with him and did a lot of hanging out with him. I don't think Saddam Hussein was found in a hole in the desert because some investigators buddied up with somebody close to Hussein. I see a significant possibility that when that information was revealed, the person talking had a butcher knife up his ass.

I think I pretty much agree with the other stuff you wrote.

Originally Posted by shark!

yeah of course they torture. there are fucking pictures of it.

Wow, you can even see Bush and Petraeus in that photograph. Okay, I'm sold. The U.S. government obviously has a torture policy.

Originally Posted by R.D.735

Although I'm no expert, I've read several accounts from interrogators, both current and former, that the most effective method is to gain the favor of the potential informant, by such ordinary means as conversation, having lunch with him, and interrogating him non-aggressively every day.

If one wants to get information quickly, to prevent an imminent attack, torture can provide information quickly, but it's a huge gamble that it will be accurate. If it isn't, the prisoner isn't likely to provide any reliable intelligence all, no matter what else is attempted.

The best information for preventing imminent attacks does not come from prisoners, but from civilians and informants sympathetic to us, who can provide reliable information and provide it quickly.

And if they've got the wrong guy?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What would be the best way to get terrorists to reveal terrorist attacks in the making?

lets imagine that you are a terrorist. except in your perspective, you're a hero and a martyr. you believe you are in a holy war, and you're on the side of heaven, everyone else, on the side of hell. death means nothing to you because life on all ends has lost its value.

you're not afraid to die and you probably hate life to begin with

do you think threatening a terrorist with death is how you win information?

violence does not lead to solutions. torment a terrorist and in the long run you get, more terrorists. kill a terrorist and you get, another terrorist ready to die and kill for revenge. its a never ending cycle when hatred is involved, and when hatred is involved - such as in terrorism *extreme hate for a perceived enemy* - violence never solves the issue. it may only temporarily weaken the terrorists, but in the long run the ordeal will just leave a bitter resentment in the area which breeds a new generation of terrorists years later

the hard part, and the moral choice would be - to show this terrorist why it is beneficial to him to release information. thats the hard part, but the only way to beat terrorism.

using torture, regardless of how much you might hate a person, is something a terrorist would do.

currently, Bush's idea is you blow up terrorists and they magically disappear. some how over looking that using brute force pisses people off, and that all terrorists have one thing in common - they are pissed off people.

a better way to defeat terrorism is to remove what created it. and thats a cultural situation, not a leader. not saying the leader isn't dangerous, but simply saying that in the long run terrorism will remain regardless of what leader is killed

Juroara, I was asking what is the best way to get a terrorist (who is already a terrorist) to talk, not what isn't.

Also, the threat of death and the threat of suffering are two different things.

The threat of suffering shouldn't even be an option. Thats the very defention of torturing.

Originally Posted by Alric

The threat of suffering shouldn't even be an option. Thats the very defention of torturing.

So if I tell you that if you don't tell me about a plot to kill my daughter I am going to burn your leg with a hot iron, I am torturing you?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Juroara, I was asking what is the best way to get a terrorist (who is already a terrorist) to talk, not what isn't.

Also, the threat of death and the threat of suffering are two different things.

I did answer in my post

These techniques are used to create shock because in a state of shock there's typically a breaking point which makes the hostage feel more complacent. It's pretty much the exact same thing as from 1984, and intention to create shock to the point the prisoner breaks and can be rewritten, like shock treatment in a psychiatric ward.

I can understand a very coarse sort of "we need to just get the information because the consequences are dire" apprach, but its a bad excuse considering the blow-back it causes and maybe if we examined what left us in the position where we need to use toruture we wouldnt be in that situation again and again and again. I do consider chock therapy to be torture, btw.

Juroara, how do you think we should go about getting terrorists to talk? I keep asking you that, and you keep ignoring it.

Omnius Deus, it would be interesting to know your answer to that too.

Originally Posted by juroara

the hard part, and the moral choice would be - to show this terrorist why it is beneficial to him to release information. thats the hard part, but the only way to beat terrorism.

this was my answer universal. although, I'm talking specifically about the terrorism we have today, deep rooted into religious beliefs. its very different combating terrorism spawned from a political view than a religious view. I don't think I have to explain that to you, I think you understand very well how much harder it is to debunk religious beliefs than a political one or maybe you don't.

I'm talking about terrorists who really do believe they are in a holy war. the reason why I say beneficial to them to release information is because - to sell out information against their Gods wishes can in their mind serve them a much worse punishment than anything Earth has to offer. . . a life of suffering or an eternity in hell for betraying God?? Which do you choose??

Similar scenarios DID happen to christians back in the day. And no amount of suffering made them speak against their Christ, thus they received saint status from generations to come. And again similar scenarios happened to the Jews. Understanding that religious history has shown that being defiant against your enemy is 'good' and receives 'saint' status, and God rewards you for the suffering your enemy puts you through, why would a religious terrorist talk???? If God is going to reward you, what can a man do to take that away??

Getting them to release information works when they realize, they aint fighting Gods war. And thats the end of terrorism. Because when God is not on your side and God is not going to reward you, well, you're in a sticky situation and God sure as hell won't get you out. Now maybe its time to talk.

The entire infrastructure of terrorism can destroy itself when the more religious followers understand they are just being used by political terrorists. And thats the angle I would use.

This is difficult and very easy. Its easy for us because we can clearly see how following this or that leader benefits no one, no followers, no cult, just the leaders. Very easy to see how what they have done is not even supported by their own religion they claim to uphold. But when you hate, you've lost touch with reality, and you can't see anymore. That's why its difficult.

I simply don't think were dealing with a political terrorism, thus political tactics won't work.

Originally Posted by Alric

The reason the government always gives that they hate us because we are 'free' is total bull.

Actually it's not bull; it's very much spot on. Our freedom to not follow their teachings and views is exactly why they consider us their enemy.

Whats ironic is that the government is always the first to say talking works far better than torture.

Umm, you can only "talk" to rational people. We aren't dealing with rational people. You conveniently omit that aspect in your little make love-not war motif you have in your mind.

When you get done playing footsies with a cactus, try something that actually works.

The only reason I can see is that they know torture is wrong so they try to put up a nice face and say they don't do it.

No, they say what they do in largly because the "torture" we do is miles away from the barbarism displayed by the enemy in far lesser cases. It's all about perspective. You should get some.

Originally Posted by Omnius Deus

You have a narrow dichotomy, that someone is either a terorist or not.

Uh... yeah! You either are or aren't a terrorist. And if you are withholding critical knowledge then you are aiding and abetting, which makes you a terrorist. Duh

The people we have in captivity aren't planning to blow buildings up, they just possibly know something about it.

See: above.

But in answer to your question, the way to do it is stop occupying foreign countries so people no longer want to hurt us.

Every time we have this annoying discussion, there's always the group that completely misinterprets cause and effect. Welcome to that group once again. Looks like you're a card-carrying member. Right this way, Mr. Deus, your table is ready.

Originally Posted by juroara

I'm talking about terrorists who really do believe they are in a holy war.

Not only do they think they are fighting a holy war: They ARE fighting a holy war. Just because WE aren't doesn't mean THEY aren't.

Similar scenarios DID happen to christians back in the day. And no amount of suffering made them speak against their Christ, thus they received saint status from generations to come.

RIIIIIIGHT, uh-huh. Yup, Except that.... NO. And I suppose you think that not a single person confessed to being a witch to avoid being burned at the stake. Don't ya'? That's what I thought

There's a good reason that torture has been used traditionally: it works!

Getting them to release information works when they realize, they aint fighting Gods war.

I agree that getting them to see the error of their ways is the ultimate solution to terrorism but I don't agree that it's the only way to get information.

The entire infrastructure of terrorism can destroy itself when the more religious followers understand they are just being used by political terrorists. And thats the angle I would use.

Very true indeed.

I simply don't think were dealing with a political terrorism, thus political tactics won't work.

The first part is right to a large degree and the second part is wrong to a very large degree.

Originally Posted by Omnius Deus

You have a narrow dichotomy, that someone is either a terorist or not. The people we have in captivity aren't planning to blow buildings up, they just possibly know something about it.

And come on um, if our FBI couldn't even get the names and photos right for the 9/11 hijackers then how are they supposed to get the right people, here?

But in answer to your question, the way to do it is stop occupying foreign countries so people no longer want to hurt us.

I have no idea where you get your bizarre criticisms of me personally. You don't seem to be able to make a post addressed to me without doing it, yet you usually pull strange claims out of thin air when you do it. I said a person is either a terrorist or not? Where do you come up with this stuff? It is truly amazing what you are willing to completely make up.

The people we have in captivity are known to be members of terrorist organizations and/or part of terrorist plots/attacks that have happened or were/are in the making. We are not pulling random people off the streets because of minor little tiny what ifs. That is what the Hussein regime did. Are you thrilled that we got rid of such a government?

If you will read Bin Laden's letter to America, you will see that Al Qaeda demands far more than withdrawal from the Middle East. And doing so will give them reason to see us as cowards, which is exactly what Bin Laden has directly said was Al Qaeda's rationale for concluding that they could handle a war with the United States. Do you remember Clinton's withdrawal from Somalia when things got rough? That selfish political move on Clinton's part gave Al Qaeda the confidence necessary to pull the 9/11 attacks. Bin Laden has argued exactly that on video.

Originally Posted by Alric

You can talk to everyone, and they all have their reasons for doing what they do. The reason the government always gives that they hate us because we are 'free' is total bull.

Read Bin Laden's letter to America, and you will see that you are far from the truth. I think I might even start a thread on that letter. I am sick of telling people to read it and see that they are wrong. Al Qaeda despises our party lifestyle, and they hate the party influence we have on the rest of the world. It is a fact. I am not making that up. Read the letter.

Originally Posted by Alric

Whats ironic is that the government is always the first to say talking works far better than torture. They are always having the people running the prisons and stuff coming on tv and saying they don't personally torture people because it never works, instead they talk to them and get to know them better and the terrorist open up to them. So if the government even agrees that there are better ways than torture, why do we still do it?

Scaring people into doing the right thing is not torture. And who in the Bush administration has said that talking is the answser? They refuse to meet with terrorist leaders because they know they are dealing with wild animals who are not the least bit interested in peace. They are right about that. If you ever get attacked by terrorists, you will understand what we are dealing with.


Juroara, you finally (somewhere in another one of your incredibly long posts) gave a somewhat specific answer to my question. We teach severely brainwashed (often from childhood) terrorists that what they are doing is not what God wants. Good luck with that one! How exactly do you propose accomplishing that amazing feat?

There are many people around the world that doesn't follow their teachings and they have no problems with many of them. Thinking they hate us only because we are 'free' is stupid and untrue. Most of their reasons have to do with all the stuff we do in the area.

Your problem is that you think none of them are rational. Many are misguided, many believe things about us that are not true, a lot of them hate us and that clouds their judgement. The thing is when you talk to them, you can get through with a lot of them. If you clear up the misunderstandings and get rid of the hate they are the same as us. Even if they are not rational, once they are sitting in jail facing the rest of their life there, they have time to think about it and time to calm down.

I never said to be nice to them, or to give them anything special. And of course you don't let them go. All I am saying is you have to show some basic respect for other human beings, which means you dont torture them.

Saying our torture is less painful than their torture is stupid. Its still torture, and its still just as wrong.