Thread: "The US Does Not Torture"

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Well if thats the only arguement you have, people can read it themself. It clearly states he has tons of problems with our government, many of them which are very valid complaints.

Originally Posted by Alric

Well if thats the only arguement you have, people can read it themself. It clearly states he has tons of problems with our government, many of them which are very valid complaints.

That letter makes it very, very clear that making Al Qaeda not try to kill us involves a whole universe of unrealistic demands that have nothing to do with changing our Middle East policies. We have known that, and we have been dealing with it accordingly. Thus, the war on terror.

The point wasn't that he is demanding to much, the point is that he has real issues. Its not something vague like he hates freedom. Its real problems. Which means someone who is fighting because of the reasons listed, may actually talk to you. You have a real chance of convincing them they are wrong.

We can disagree with them, but it shows it is something that can be talked about.

Originally Posted by Alric

The point wasn't that he is demanding to much, the point is that he has real issues. Its not something vague like he hates freedom. Its real problems. Which means someone who is fighting because of the reasons listed, may actually talk to you. You have a real chance of convincing them they are wrong.

We can disagree with them, but it shows it is something that can be talked about.

You cannot have a rational conversation with somebody that irrational. It would be like trying to convince Charles Manson that he was wrong and needs to apologize. There is nothing realistic about the idea.

Sure there is. Its basicly a large rant with all the problems he has with the US. Realisticly he probably doesn't expect us to do everything. He would probably be happy with us doing a quarter of the stuff on the list. Obviously everyone knows that wont happen so we kill each other. Saddly its the way the world works.

The issues he has with the US are totally rational and probably a fairly common view of us. Whats not rational is the part of him trying to kill people. And thats definitely a bad thing. Not everyone who may help him, is so firm however. They read the list and maybe they agree with it. Maybe they think the US is full of jerks so the support them. Not all of them are going to be as extreme however.

No one ever said you could sit down with Bin Laden and convince him he is wrong about us. When it comes to a lot of his followers however? Its entirely possible and has happened. The rational people who agree with his valid points get caught up with the nut cases too. Its a mistake to say they are all the same though, that none of them can be reasoned with or talked to.

His views are rational? You think we should outlaw homosexuality? Let's start with that so we don't have to keep speaking in vague terms. He demands that we no longer "permit immoral acts" such as "homosexuality". Where do you stand on that one?

And remember, he said that we have to meet "all" of his demands or else "fight with the Islamic nation".

People who are willing to die in order to kill in the name of that are pretty far gone from rational.

His point of usury is actually a huge problem in our country. Infact our economy is based on it, which is why our markets are so unstable. The so called drug war, huge mistake, costs tons of money doesn't solve anything. Nothing wrong with a little gaming but the gambling large companies do with other peoples money, really sucks. People are always complaining about women being exploited here(Though most don't take them seriously.) All the porn and crap he has a point on though that one is actually a freedom issue. Polution is a huge problem, theres no question we are the worst coutnry in the world when it comes to doing damage to nature. How they do campaigns funds is actually something a lot of people are worried about and trying to fix. We did infact drop a nuke to japan cant get out of that one. He also has a fair point that we allow israel to build nukes while banning other countries such as iran, and we do it because they are our friends. Israel also does ignore tons of UN resolutions and we don't care, while we do punish other countries that do the same.

All of them a real issues and most have nothing to with being free. Some of them do but most don't.

But he demands that we meet ALL of the demands for them to call off their war against us.

So...(at the risk of keeping this thread on it's intended track. There is just too much that has been said that I disagree with, but not much that touched on the actual issue)...no one has convinced me that the Administration is right to tell the American people that "The U.S. Does Not Torture." By all accepted definitions (even those of the U.N.), we do, even by the standards of the interrogations of the past. Is it right that the Administration just uses so arbitrary, made-up definition of "torture," when telling us they don't do it - undermining what the public (well...most of us) already understand is the meaning of the true, wide-ranging, meaning of the word?

Do you think the Administration doesn't understand this concept? I doubt that. It, then, makes me wonder what other "truths" are skewed, arbitrarily. There is hardly a thing in the world that can't be explained away by stretching or distorting the facts.

Don't get me wrong, I love my country just as much as the next American and (regardless of what anyone wants to misinterpret my point as) I believe in killing those - only those - that are trying to kill us, but I despise misinformation from those who we count on for the truth. When certain things are set in motion, there are just too many people who remain ignorant of the very real (and, in no sense, new) concept of government manipulation and have a knee-jerk reaction not to listen to anything that opposes their emotional investment. On a not-so-literal scale, in relation to the war, they are still stuck on Bush's "Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists," comment.

Personally, I would rather they leave it at "We are not at liberty to discuss our interrogation techniques" than just telling us, flat out, that they "do not torture." I wouldn't be completely at ease, knowing that there are probably innocent men being subjected to these unknown techniques, (they had one such man on CNN the other day) than feeling that we are being lied to.

Originally Posted by Alric

The point wasn't that he is demanding to much, the point is that he has real issues. Its not something vague like he hates freedom. Its real problems. Which means someone who is fighting because of the reasons listed, may actually talk to you. You have a real chance of convincing them they are wrong.

One major key point that you seem to be oblivious to is that the enemy doesn't just want us to "be nice" to them; they want to convert the entire non-Muslim "infidel" world. And those who they cannot convert must die in their plan. That's not conjecture - that's explicitly-stated fact. And if you believe anything other than that to be the truth then your are missing the very foundation of their efforts.

We can disagree with them, but it shows it is something that can be talked about.

But you cannot reason with people who are "fighting for their soul." The very nature of their efforts is based on lack of reason. They are irrational to the core. That's what makes them so dangerous and that's why they must be dealt with in a less than friendly manner.

Another mistake that people make when considering how much we are hated by the Islam nations is in thinking that we are their only target. We are FAR from their only targets, we are just the one who is willing to stand up to them and who has the military mite to do whatever might ultimately be necessary. Hell, look at their threats to wipe their next door neighbors off the globe. We're talking genocide on scales that would make Hitler and Pol Pot jealous. But, conveniently, people like you are willing to look past all of that and play the politics game because it feels good inside.

The only reason we shine in that category is because of the power and freedom we represent. If they can make us buckle then the rest of the world will be a breeze. The United States is their major stumbling block because of what we represent, the power we hold, and the allies we possess. Get it straight.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

But he demands that we meet ALL of the demands for them to call off their war against us.

And, as I pointed out: if we (or any other nation) doesn't convert then we are to die by their hand according to their plan.

Thats the thing. Its not a fact, and the proof he used to show that its a fact only shows they have other problems with us, most of which have nothing to do with religion.

Do we ignore the fact that Al Qaeda is not the primary target of the War on Terror? The war is supposed to be one against Islamic Fundamentalism, which exists in a hundred different shades in dozens of lesser known militant groups. Al Qaeda may be a large terrorist organization, but they commit only a tiny portion of terrorist acts. There were ~14000 over the past year, mostly small incidents, and most of them, ~9000, not in Iraq, but still in the Mid-East.

This strongly suggests that the vast majority of terrorists worldwide have a localized political agenda.

In the Arab world, many despise Israel for its occupation of Arab lands after the 6-day War, even though the Arab world was the aggressor. This is akin to Germany's outlook after WWI, seeking revenge for losing a war that they started in the first place. They never had a chance of military victory afterwards, so terrorism was an obvious choice for many groups. The U.S. support of Israel has subjected it to inclusion in the oft-referenced "Zionist Conspiracy."

Terrorism in Iraq, of course, is largely(~90&#37 a localized power struggle between opposing factions.

Al Qaeda, as the world's largest global terrorist organization, does have broad political goals, but those goals could quite possibly be a recruitment tool, and not serious objectives that they pursue. Based now in Pakistan, they are well-insulated from U.S. influence and are incredibly dangerous as long as Pakistan is in its current political turmoil(Pakistan has nuclear weapons).

Originally Posted by Alric

Thats the thing. Its not a fact, and the proof he used to show that its a fact only shows they have other problems with us, most of which have nothing to do with religion.

WRONG!!! Mahmoud Ahmadinezhad has said, not hinted or suggested: SAID in his own words those things. His intentions are explicit - not implied. I have heard it numerous times.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

So...(at the risk of keeping this thread on it's intended track. There is just too much that has been said that I disagree with, but not much that touched on the actual issue)...no one has convinced me that the Administration is right to tell the American people that "The U.S. Does Not Torture."

Then please tell me how threatening severe pain that can be escaped by doing the right thing is synonymous with the causing of severe pain.

I chose the "not sure" option in the poll because I don't know what is really going on behind the scenes. But as far as what the government admits to doing, it is not torture.

The obvious flaw with that is that we are talking about terrorist and al qaeda and not Iran.

Originally Posted by Alric

The obvious flaw with that is that we are talking about terrorist and al qaeda and not Iran.

Iran is an Islamofascist state that supports and funds terrorism.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Iran is an Islamofascist state that supports and funds terrorism.

Exactly, meaning he will give money to any terrorists who will help him kill people. That doesn't mean the terrorists agree with him, or are fighting for the same reasons as he is. I doubt he cares if the terrorist are fighting because of his religious beliefs. As long as they are fighting at all, thats good enough for him.

Originally Posted by Alric

Exactly, meaning he will give money to any terrorists who will help him kill people. That doesn't mean the terrorists agree with him, or are fighting for the same reasons as he is. I doubt he cares if the terrorist are fighting because of his religious beliefs. As long as they are fighting at all, thats good enough for him.

Why would he be wanting to kill people if he is not an Islamofascist? What do you think his real motivation is?

From Universal Mind
Then please tell me how threatening severe pain that can be escaped by doing the right thing is synonymous with the causing of severe pain.

What's the difference between an innocent man who knows nothing and a terrorist who refuses to say anything? The idea that interrogative torture is not abusive because the victim can 'escape' assumes that one knows without a reasonable doubt that the prisoner possesses the information you need to get from him. This kind of certainty is very rare, and the logic would condemn any torture that is committed without such certainty.

Universal Mind is somewhat right regarding Iran. That country is an Islamic Republic, ruled by Ayatollah Khomeini and traditional Islamic Law. It is a theocracy. Whether it is fascistic or not, I'm not really sure, but it is certainly not a free state. If their government funds terrorists, their goals, however, are purely selfish, and not, in my opinion, likely to originate from crazed megalomania.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Then please tell me how threatening severe pain that can be escaped by doing the right thing is synonymous with the causing of severe pain.

Throwing people in a freezing room while periodically throwing cold water on them is pretty extreme. Putting someone that is deathly afraid of dogs into a pen, blindfolded, surrounded by barking, snarling dogs that are just out of range is pretty, psychologically, extreme. (And, to use other examples that probably aren't being done, but fall in the same line...) Putting a fake bullet in a revolver and playing Russian Roulette with a detainee, clicking the hammer and spinning the barrel every time you ask them a question and they do not answer to your liking, is pretty extreme. Sticking them under a pendulum with a rotating saw blade that drops down toward their stomach an inch a minute, until they tell you what you want to here (even if you don't plan on dropping it the final inch) is pretty extreme. Hanging someone off of the Empire State building, by their ankles, and threatening to drop them, if they don't tell you what you want to hear, is pretty extreme.

I'm sorry, UM, but this is torture. Torture is both a physical and psychological concept. Take into account the testimonies of the WWII interrogators in the article posted. Would they felt dishonorable for doing the type of things that are being done, today, if they didn't consider them torturous?

It attacks their psyche in ways they can never recover. Innocent people. Lot's and lot's of innocent people.

Originally Posted by Alric

The obvious flaw with that is that we are talking about terrorist and al qaeda and not Iran.

Again, you fail to grasp the weight of the situation. Iran is the root and the breeding ground of terrorism, terrorists and Islamo-radicalism. Iran is - and always have been - the true target of our efforts. If you can help surround the hotbed of evil with free nations then you build a condition where Iran's closest neighbors are more willing and capable of standing up to Iran. I repeat: Iran IS the root of all this mess.

Iran is ruled by a ruthless dictator who very vocally expresses his desires and intention to destroy all of the "infidel" world. Don't listen to the rhetoric he spews to rest of the world. To understand his true motives and plans, you must listen to what he tells his own people.

Except that Iran hasn't been our target untill recently. Though that is neither here nor there. And you still havn't adressed how Iran and the terrorists are the same. Likely because we all know they are not. You basicly repeated what you said before than Iran is full the terrorists which I had already agreed with. That hardly means all terrorists are fighting for Iran however.